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Warscrolls, Models, Keywords, Units, and how they work. Interpretation.


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There has been some discussion on one of the Facebook pages, that frankly has me wondering if I am interpreting things correctly. I cannot possibly be the only person who interprets how Warscrolls, Models, Keywords, and Units interplay and connect. This forum seems like the best place to ask, as I am not getting any real answers elsewhere.

Page 1 of the RULES:

WARSCROLLS & UNITS
All models are described by warscrolls,
which provide all of the rules for using
them in the game. You will need warscrolls
for the models you want to use.
Models fight in units. A unit can have one
or more models, but cannot include models
that use different warscrolls.


Every printed book with a warscrolls section has two pages, WARSCROLLS, and HINTS & TIPS (I'm pulling from pages 142-143 of new SCE book):

WARSCROLLS

1. Title: The name of the model that the warscroll describes. 

3. Description: The description tells you what weapons the model can be armed with, and what upgrades (if any) it can be given. The description will also tell you if the model is fielded on its own as a single model, or as part of a unit. If the model is fielded as part of a unit, then the description will say how many models the should have.

5. Keywords: All models have a list of keywords. Sometimes a rule will say that it only applies to models that have a specific keyword.

HINTS & TIPS

Keywords: Keywords are sometimes linked to (or tagged) by a rule. For example, a rule might say that it applies to 'all Stormcast Eternal models'. This means that it would apply to models that have the Stormcast Eternal keyword on their warscroll. 

Keywords can also be a useful way to describe which models to include in an army. For example, if you want to field a Stormcast Eternal army, just use models that have the Stormcast Eternal keyword.

 

My Interpretation

So, the way I understand this is that a Warscroll is describing a single instance of a model, not a unit. The model has all the characteristics, abilities, and keywords listed on the Warscroll. The Warscroll will say if that model can form a unit of like models or not. Every instance of that Model in the unit has all the keywords, abilities, and Characteristics listed on the Warscroll, not the Unit. 

This is the correct interpretation, right? I'm not reading it incorrectly or reading things into it that arent there?

Following that logic and using Pink Horrors as an example; Pink Horrors have the Wizard keyword. A unit of 10 Pink Horrors is 10 Pink Horror Models each with the Wizard keyword. 

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6 minutes ago, YourSwordisMine said:

This is the correct interpretation, right? I'm not reading it incorrectly or reading things into it that arent there?

Following that logic and using Pink Horrors as an example; Pink Horrors have the Wizard keyword. A unit of 10 Pink Horrors is 10 Pink Horror Models each with the Wizard keyword. 

No.

 

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1 minute ago, Andreas said:

Well if using pink horrors as an example it would be very boring for both players if every models counts as a wizard (in combination with tzaangors icon bearers). ?

Yes, that is where it breaks because of the wording on the Icon Bearers Ability. This is also true for Sisters of the Thorn, and Doomfire Warlocks as well. 

But I am not talking about that. The key issue is how do Models, Keywords, and Units work.

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1 minute ago, Andreas said:

Is there any other situation where it matters or this a meta discussion regarding the meaning of things?

Not that I know of. I'm trying to see if I am interpreting the base rules correctly. 

The Tzaangor Icon Bearer ability and its current wording is what is causing the break. There wouldnt even be an issue if the wording was different. That is why this whole question has come to light for me.

 

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I see what you're driving at, but even if you could make the rules work for that let's take it from a practical stand point :  anyone playing you would hate you forever.  

This is one of those things that I feel firmly falls in the "common sense" category.

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2 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

I see what you're driving at, but even if you could make the rules work for that let's take it from a practical stand point :  anyone playing you would hate you forever.  

This is one of those things that I feel firmly falls in the "common sense" category.

I totally agree. Its horribly broken as it stands. I am in NO WAY advocating it to be played that way, nor would I even use it that way at all. If it wasnt intentional, then it needs to be fixed. 

 

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The problem is, people are seeing the Pink Horrors as only counting as one wizard, but that is not the case. Wizard is just a keyword here. Their ability Magic, tells how they work for casting, unbinding and spells known. Each Pink Horror model still has the keyword though. 

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5 minutes ago, tolstedt said:

In what way would this ever affect gameplay?

The Tzaangor Icon Bearer ability is only looking for the Wizard keyword. So every model with that Keyword adds to the pool of dice to be rolled.

ICON BEARERS

Models in this unit may be Icon Bearers. If this unit includes one or more Icon Bearers, then at the start of each of your hero phases, take a dice for each Wizard (friend or foe) within 9" of this unit. Then, pick an enemy unit within 18" and roll the dice; the unit suffers a mortal wound for each roll of 4 or more.

 

So, 10 Pink Horrors would by RAW contribute 10 dice.

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that is how it will get faq'd if it ever comes up. so, play it that way 

 

there's absolutely no way they'll faq it the other way, as all you'll see is like 3 units of 30 pink horrors lined up behind 3 units of tzaangors in one continuous line, 

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5 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

each model is a wizard. correct.

but it only counts as A wizard. so if you have 1 or 40 its still only counts as A wizard 

But they dont count as a wizard at all. They have the Wizard keyword yes, but they cast and unbind and know spells as a Unit. 

Every warscroll other than Pink Horrors, Sisters of the Thorn, and Doomfire Warlocks, that have the MAGIC ability on their Warscroll, the first sentence is " A Loremaster (or other name here) is a wizard". Those three do not have that at all. 

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7 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

that is how it will get faq'd if it ever comes up. so, play it that way 

 

there's absolutely no way they'll faq it the other way, as all you'll see if. like 3 units of 30 pink horrors lined up behind 3 units of tzaangors in one continuous line, 

That doesnt need to be changed. What needs to be changed is the wording on the Tzaangor Icon Bearer ability so that it is looking for 'Wizard unit'.

Changing Pink Horrors would change the fundamental interplay of keywords which could cause more issues IMHO.

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Quote

The problem is, people are seeing the Pink Horrors as only counting as one wizard, but that is not the case. Wizardis just a keyword here. Their ability Magic, tells how they work for casting, unbinding and spells known. Each Pink Horror model still has the keyword though. 

It's taking a completely unnatural meaning of "Wizard" to say that. Use purposive construction like GW do in the AoS context (including the rule against absurdity and getting 10 bolts out of a banner from 10 Pink Horrors is massively absurd).

The Gaunt Summoner and his 4 buddies are 5 models (although also defined as being a single model) - in no plausible sense are they 5 Wizards.

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4 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

By your interpretation would each individual Horror get to pick a spell from the Tzeentch tome then? Sure the unit could only cast one of them, but you'd get a plethora of options. :S 

Why not? ?

I had a discussion in another thread regarding if formations with prosecutors in the new stormcast book could be used since there are no such warscroll, only prosecutors with "weapon option".

This is really a discussion if there is such thing as common sense, where one side say no and the other side say yes with no hope for any agreement.

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7 minutes ago, Andreas said:

I had a discussion in another thread regarding if formations with prosecutors in the new stormcast book could be used since there are no such warscroll, only prosecutors with "weapon option".

That discussion was equally bonkers, and I think all but one person was saying 'using my experience of playing games, this breaks the game for zero benefit' (or what you might call common sense).

 

7 minutes ago, Andreas said:

This is really a discussion if there is such thing as common sense, where one side say no and the other side say yes with no hope for any agreement.

I believe people are using 'common sense' here for shorthand in 'experience in playing games and consideration of both parties enjoyment of said game'.

Therefore, using my 'experience in playing games and consideration of both parties enjoyment in said game' no the unit should not get to pick 10 spells. (in my humble opinion)

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