Seraphon Allegiance Abilities (Custom, First Draft)

[tolstedt]

Seraphon could use a small boost.  Heroes and battalions and a few of the big monsters would benefit from a slight point reduction.  My initial assessment is that this wouldn't take more than a reduction of 20 points for a few models and battalions.

What would really make them strong and give a dynamic range of lists is to have allegiance abilities and a spell lore similar to Sylvaneth.  A bit more magical umph.  
So I have made some.  Any players are encouraged to try.

Please treat this as a work in progress.

Any kind of constructive feedback is welcome, be it in terms of broken combos, casting roll changes, or the specific language on the ability texts.

seraphon abilities.pdf

[tolstedt]

I am ready to offer my reasoning for any of the abilities here but it is of course probable that I have missed broken things. 

[Aginor]

I like Starlight Precision, it is a nice little buff IMO.

Not sure about Survivors Eternal. That's pretty strong. But so are other abilities.

I like how the artifacts are pretty defensive. It fits to the Seraphon I guess.

I don't understand the difference between Scale Shield and Mystic Shield except Scale Shield is harder to cast. Please explain that one.

Same for Star Bolt. Are those meant to bypass the rule of one?

In general I think your pdf is pretty magic-heavy. I kinda like that though.

[tolstedt]

Yes Scale Shield and Starbolt are simply meant to bypass the rules of one but make them just a touch harder to cast.  

I wanted players to have to invest a bit more if they wanted to spam offensive magic or double up on the shield (by either taking Kroak's tooth or staying close to arcane terrain or utilizing the mediation spell).  

With good armor saves already on many of the troops I wanted to avoid stacking mystic shields and instead force the player to spread the shields around, hence you can't cast Scale Shield and Mystic Shield on the same target.  The idea would be to have a "hunker down" turn in which you double up on the shields at a critical time and try to weather the storm like a turtle.  Force the opponent to focus down a single unit then strike back when you can.

I was worried that Saurus Guard already get a 2+ save with their battalion and that the extra shield cast would make most of the board a bit too strong, but with the focus on summoning and battalions with the allegiance abilities multiple smaller units are more likely and thus the shields get less bang for their buck since they are not affecting a large unit of 40 models at a time.

Starlight Precision is indeed the ability I like the most.  In my building of Seraphon lists I wanted to create a summoning heavy army but the thought of failing a 10 casting roll to summon a much needed large creature made it seem very weak compared to something like warrior brotherhood.  Using Starlight Precision first can let you see if you can get that big monster (partnered with meditation it can be very good.)  I was proud of this one as it was very fitting for the army.

Missing a big roll for something essential like getting the unit on the board hurts bad (for your strategy as well as thematically) when the army is meant to be adept at magic.

[tolstedt]

Looks like it's just you and me Aginor.  Let me know if you do some games with the abilities and what you think about them.

[rokapoke]

I'm trying to get into Seraphon (but with strict budget limitations) so I have limited experience. Basically, I have the Start Collecting box (from which I built the Troglodon and Saurus Oldblood on foot), a Stegadon (built with the bow and threw together a Skink Priest from the leftover bits), a Bastiladon (building with the Searing Beam), and 15 Saurus Guard.

So yes, I'm interested in Seraphon. But no, I can't help with this as I have no idea how the army really runs (and I don't have summoners yet to take advantage of most of what you've proposed anyway).

[Aginor]

I fear I might not be the right person to try those in play since I am a beginner (and so is my friend I am playing against) so the results will probably be very different to what would happen between veterans. I am still trying to get a more firm grasp of the basic rules.

You should - targeting a bigger Seraphon audience - probably post your ideas over at Lustria Online as well, if you haven't already done so.
I can also bring the topic up over there if you wish.

[Ao_Death]

Nice write-up these seem great! I have to echo @Aginor starlight precision seems like a great trait. I particularly like how it interacts with the rule of one without breaking it wide open!

Geometric hand seems awesome but infeasible given there is no restrictions on terrain. (Imagine a 10 in wall appearing 1in in front of your artillery) If I where to make a suggestion I could see adding a Sunstone platform that could be moved. Moderately pointed and fixed in size and still serves the same purpose it just gets summoned below a unit prior to the move. (Sylvaneth WW for seraphon if you will) 

The artifacts are hard to gauge, they seem weak? It's very hard to evaluate buffs without a play test though. I assume this is to offset the strength of the arcane treasure? Care to share your thoughts?

[tolstedt]

I wrote Geometric Hand as a "move" to imply it must remain 3" from enemy units.  I imagined this would be sufficiently limiting given considered placement by the opponent.  Perhaps changing it to a 6" move would be better?  Makes it a little easier to calculate where all the terrain may in a given battle round.

I'd want to avoid making them too sylvanethish (already getting close as sylvaneth were the model for these abilities).

The artifacts:  

Scale cloak is great defensively and I think fair.  The Saurus Sunblood has this ability already, so you could go for a tanky build. 
Azyr Drum is for a mobility centered build that lets you target the unit you need to move fast.  Good to partner with the Primal Heartbeat command trait or the Slanns command ability or both.  A dynamic trait as opposed to the cloak which is static.
Ancient Weapon is strong on oldbloods (really that's who it's meant for).  I liked the idea thematically that it was such a powerful weapon that it couldn't be affected by negative modifiers.
Sublime Icon is the best one.  Combined with Gaze Infinite Sublime command trait, carnosaur roar, dread saurian roar, and stardrake icon (from saurus warriors) you can smash anyone in battleshock.  Stacking in this way is fair and valid to me because it requires you placing the units in the proper spots.
Dragon Blood Potion and Glamourus Scale are simple artifacts in line with the ones from the GHB.

All of these are designed to create tactical threats (but not overload you with tactical threats) but force dynamic list creating.  If you want to make one of the artifacts very strong you must build for it.

I don't want the artifact to be a straightforward bonus, but to be placed to synergize in the list and open up opportunities for the army to play in different and interesting ways.

[Mrmattywoodz]

My opponent used these rules tonight, I printed them out for him last minute as I was scrolling through the forums 20 minutes or so before we started the game. He used heavily scaled leader on his Old one on carnosaur, dragon blood potion on his old one on carnosaur, geometric hand on his Skink wizard (sorry, I don't recall the name, it's the one with all the feathers,) and as he was using a battalion, he got a second artifact and used silverstar circlet. It was definitely cool to see a different set of rules for the good old lizardmen. We enjoyed the game and nothing seemed too powerful. Good job.


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[tolstedt]

8 hours ago, Mrmattywoodz said:

My opponent used these rules tonight, I printed them out for him last minute as I was scrolling through the forums 20 minutes or so before we started the game. He used heavily scaled leader on his Old one on carnosaur, dragon blood potion on his old one on carnosaur, geometric hand on his Skink wizard (sorry, I don't recall the name, it's the one with all the feathers,) and as he was using a battalion, he got a second artifact and used silverstar circlet. It was definitely cool to see a different set of rules for the good old lizardmen. We enjoyed the game and nothing seemed too powerful. Good job.


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Awesome!  I'm happy you had a good game.

What faction did you play?  

Heavy Scaled Leader on the carnosaur was something I thought could be strong.  Getting him close to many enemies to use the roar ability.  

Let me know if you play again.

[Mrmattywoodz]

Awesome!  I'm happy you had a good game.

What faction did you play?  

Heavy Scaled Leader on the carnosaur was something I thought could be strong.  Getting him close to many enemies to use the roar ability.  

Let me know if you play again.

I was playing Stormcast. I actually got ahold of the new battletomb early and was using it. I did win the game, but I was taking a fairly brutal list, as I was practicing for a 1K tournament I am going to soon, but forgot to mention in in advance and he was taking something a little more fluffy. He was cool about it though.

Ignoring rend let him survive a round almost unscathed from my protectors, which almost never happens. He then managed to kill one and battleshock + the Carnosaur ability there he kills D3 if he rolls higher removed three more, he then ate the remaining two on his turn.

I think what the Seraphon is lacking, is being able to put something in their General that lets them have a good Save VS mortal wounds. Maybe that is something we can think up and get in this packet?


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[Aginor]

Yeah mortal wounds are very strong against Seraphon. Combined with the many many mortal wounds dished out by other armies lately I think some sort of defense against those would be cool.

[tolstedt]

Could we possibly make Scale Shield give a 5+ to mortal wounds instead of making it a mystic shield copy?  

And add an additional artifact like Talisman of Protection (a destruction artefact that gives a 4+ mortal wound save).  

This would mean you can choose the Scale Shield situationally when you set up your wizard, keeping your army versitile.  It will make you choose which unit needs the protection the most. 

This would be tested against MW heavy armies and we can decide if we need more or if the single spell would be enough.

[Aginor]

I like that idea.

[Mrmattywoodz]

Could we possibly make Scale Shield give a 5+ to mortal wounds instead of making it a mystic shield copy?  

And add an additional artifact like Talisman of Protection (a destruction artefact that gives a 4+ mortal wound save).  

This would mean you can choose the Scale Shield situationally when you set up your wizard, keeping your army versitile.  It will make you choose which unit needs the protection the most. 

This would be tested against MW heavy armies and we can decide if we need more or if the single spell would be enough.

This actually sounds like a great idea. I actually think the shave on both could be 4+ and it wouldn't be too powerful, or make the spell remain 5+ but work like the death save, being an extra save of 5+ against any unsaved wounds or mortal wounds, but make it be like7 or 8 to cast, so it isn't automatic. Giving them a talisman of protection of 4+ that is exactly the same as the Destruction one would be just fine.


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