Do Destiny dice affect mortal wounds?

[HERO]

Say a spell or attack does d3/d6 wounds or mortal wounds.

Can Destiny Dice be used to affect this value? e.g. turn a 1 on a roll of d6 to 6.

Context: Destiny dice in the new Tz book affects both WOUND and DAMAGE rolls.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

4 pages of rules...

Looks clear to me, Mortal Wounds do not follow the normal process of to hit, to wound, damage and therefore the roll cannot be changed.

Determining damage comes under 'making attacks'

Inflicting damage is separate to determining damage.

Also just because someone on WHTV or a podcast has said or done something doesn't make it become law.

Most importantly, use the most important rule when playing a game, don't waste precious hobby time trying to figure out the exact right answer. Trust me, it's the way forward!

[BaldoBeardo]

Then yes, as it's the damage roll.

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[Slight]

Wrong, "Damage Dealt" is from having to roll "To Hit" rolls and consulting the amount of damage that is applied. That damage is then converted into the amounts of wounds (Wound Pool) which is allocated to a model. You are not rolling a damage die. You are not rolling a "to Wound" roll. You are simply rolling how many additional wounds are instantaneously applied to the wound pool. 

Destiny dice state you can alter a "Damage" or "To Wound" dice. In this case damage wound fall under the warscrolls characteristic that says "D3, D6" damage. A "To Wound" die would fall under rerolling to apply a wound to the "Wounds Pool".

Mortal Wounds you are not rolling to wound. You are rolling to find out how many wounds "WILL BE" added to the wound pool. 

Examples, Bloodletters on a 6 will cause a mortal wound. You can't not alter that roll to make "X" mortal wounds. You can alter the "to wound" roll to make it a 6.
Casting a spell, You are not rolling to hit or to wound. You are rolling to find out how many wounds will be allocated.

The difference is "I'm finding out if i wound with a "to wound" roll vs. I've already wounded "I'm now doing "X" damage".

[HERO]

23 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Then yes, as it's the damage roll.

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My friend's argument right now is that it doesn't, because I'm preforming Mortal Wounds (say with Bolt of Change), and it refers me to Inflicting Damage.

Can you provide a logic flowchart to better the argument?  This seems like GW rules writing at its best

[Slight]

To Hit Roll --> To Wound Roll -- > + Damage. (Damage being a variable statistic based on the warscroll) Mortals wound does not follow any of the following flow. You're not rolling to hit, you're not rolling to wound and you're not rolling how much damage. You are rolling a die to calculate how many wounds will be applied to wound pool. 

[BaldoBeardo]

Deleted

[Arkiham]

The guys on stream, and I'm fairly certain one of the rules guys mentioned the mortal wound roll count. 

What else is a d6 of mortal wound damage if not damage ?

[BaldoBeardo]

You're rolling to determine how much damage you cause with the attack/ability.
Mortal wounds go to the pool just like normal wounds.


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[Slight]

It doesn't say inflict "D6 Mortal Wound damage". It says inflict "X" mortal wounds.

Under mortal wounds is says do not roll "to hit" or "to wound". 

Destiny dice state it can alter damage or a wound roll. You're not doing either of that with Mortal Wounds. You''re simply adding "X" dice to the total amount of wounds. 

Where does it say under Mortal Wound that it Inflicts damage.

It doesn't ...

 "MORTAL WOUNDS - Some attacks inflict mortal wounds. Do not make hit, wound or save rolls for a mortal wound – just allocate the wounds to models from the target unit as described above."

The Above: "When inflicting damage, if you allocate a wound to a model, you must keep on allocating wounds to that model until either it is slain, or no more wounds remain to be allocated.

 

Remember To Hit -- To Wound -- Damage --> Wounds Pool.  Mortal Wounds = "X" dice to wounds pool.

[Arkiham]

So,  are mortal wounds, damage or are they not. 

[Zlatan]

Rules-as-written there's an argument there that it shouldn't count as a regular damage roll, but on the other hand the twitch stream last week had an interview with the guy who wrote the rule, who specifically used a spell which inflicts d6 mortal wounds as an example for how the allegiance ability mechanic works  (He said you could use a Destiny dice to choose to inflict 5 wounds if you had a five). 

Ben Curry I believe was also involved in the rules development as a play-tester and used a similar example in his Bad Dice daily podcast yesterday. 

I think that makes it pretty clear what the rules-as-intended were, but it probably should be FAQed. 

I have a feeling it's probably too powerful if it does count, so I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually FAQ that it doesn't. 

[Arkiham]

Depends,  off 9 dice you should get by averages 1 6 and maybe another.

On the stream yesterday the guy didn't roll a single 6 and 4 ones.

I don't see it being overpowered due to its lack of consistency.

 

22 minutes ago, Slight said:

It doesn't say inflict "D6 Mortal Wound damage". It says inflict "X" mortal wounds.

Under mortal wounds is says do not roll "to hit" or "to wound". 

Destiny dice state it can alter damage or a wound roll. You're not doing either of that with Mortal Wounds. You''re simply adding "X" dice to the total amount of wounds. 

Where does it say under Mortal Wound that it Inflicts damage.

It doesn't ...

 "MORTAL WOUNDS - Some attacks inflict mortal wounds. Do not make hit, wound or save rolls for a mortal wound – just allocate the wounds to models from the target unit as described above."

The Above: "When inflicting damage, if you allocate a wound to a model, you must keep on allocating wounds to that model until either it is slain, or no more wounds remain to be allocated.

 

Remember To Hit -- To Wound -- Damage --> Wounds Pool.  Mortal Wounds = "X" dice to wounds pool.

Rolling to inflict damage and rolling to inflict mortal wounds are the same thing, if you can roll for normal damage you can roll for mortal wounds as you're determining damage inflicted.

[tolstedt]

Deleted double post 

[Squirrelmaster]

A Damage roll is a roll made using a weapon's Damage characteristic, nothing more or less. Just like a Hit roll is a roll made using a weapon's To Hit characteristic, and a Wound roll is a roll made using a model's To Wound characteristic.

To put it another way, it is a roll made in accordance with point 4. Determine Damage, of the Making Attacks rules. Just like a Hit Roll is a roll made in accordance with point 1. Hit Roll.

Mortal Wounds do not follow any of the points in the Making Attacks rules. They are not weapons. They do not have characteristics.

Arcane Bolt is also not a weapon. It also does not follow the Making Attacks rules. It just has a casting value, and an effect. If you cast, apply the effect. The effect tells you to roll a D3. Nothing in the rules indicates that this is any special "kind" of roll, or that it has any key word associated with it. It is not a "Damage Roll", in the same way that Deathless Minions is not a "Save Roll". The two may otherwise be functionally the same, but these terms have specific meaning in AoS and there is nothing to say that they apply here.

I hope you can all understand why I don't think twitch streams and interviews should be used as a basis for rules debates that have absolutely no basis in what GW have actually written. Maybe they house-ruled it that way, maybe they were playtesting some future rules update that isn't out yet, maybe this happened so long after they actually wrote the rules that they forgot what they had written (or forgot some last-minute change they made). Maybe they just don't have a clue what they are doing. In any case, when I play a game, I expect to use the rulebook to know how to play, not a twitch stream.

[Slight]

I think this will be FAQ'd. Because the potential to first turn snipe with 9 destiny dice being able to replace mortal wound rolls on like 5+ casters that have unique mortal wound spells is ridiculous. 

I don't think so Arkiham.

Destiny dice modify a damage roll or a wound roll. In this case a damage roll is a warscrolls variable on damage. A wound roll is determined by rolling a die which then determines the damage. Mortal wounds are not a damage roll and it's not a wound roll. It's target model or unit takes "X" mortal wounds. This would apply to adding "wounds" to a wound pool.

Inflicting damage and altering the amount of a damage roll are completely different.

The amount of damage to be inflicted comes after all the damage as been determined and saves have been taken.  It still doesn't count as a damage roll, damages rolls have already been determined you are simply just allocating it now. 

Thank you for the above mentioned, was typing while you guys posted.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

--- pretty much the same thing I wrote ---

[BaldoBeardo]

If we're getting this semantic, the term "damage roll" doesn't actually exist in the main rules...

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[Requizen]

18 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

If we're getting this semantic, the term "damage roll" doesn't actually exist in the main rules...

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No, but Damage is clearly labeled on the weapons a model has. 

If they intend this to be the case, they will FAQ it. If you want to see that FAQ, put the question up on their Facebook page or via the email.

Personally, I think it's intended to be the case, but RAW it is not. I would simply ask a TO or the opponent at the start of the game and not make it your core strategy (which you shouldn't do anyway since it's inconsistent).

[Nico]

Quote

Because the potential to first turn snipe with 9 destiny dice being able to replace mortal wound rolls on like 5+ casters that have unique mortal wound spells is ridiculous. 

Surely on a very crude and very sleepy analysis, only 4.5 of the dice will be above average and none of the Wizards will be in range in the first turn (apart from a few summoned ones (who then don't have artefacts). A problem with magic (cf pew pew) is that you can stand one inch out of the Wizard's range if you are of comparable speed all day long until they get a double turn. Does mean that DoT are much better vs armies that have to close the distance and don't have pew pew (Ironjawz in particular).

The Skyfyres look to be the more obvious bet, but still don't seem to be as scary as people think (cf. Kurnoth Hunters, Husktusks).

[HERO]

1 hour ago, Squirrelmaster said:

A Damage roll is a roll made using a weapon's Damage characteristic, nothing more or less. Just like a Hit roll is a roll made using a weapon's To Hit characteristic, and a Wound roll is a roll made using a model's To Wound characteristic.

To put it another way, it is a roll made in accordance with point 4. Determine Damage, of the Making Attacks rules. Just like a Hit Roll is a roll made in accordance with point 1. Hit Roll.

Mortal Wounds do not follow any of the points in the Making Attacks rules. They are not weapons. They do not have characteristics.

Arcane Bolt is also not a weapon. It also does not follow the Making Attacks rules. It just has a casting value, and an effect. If you cast, apply the effect. The effect tells you to roll a D3. Nothing in the rules indicates that this is any special "kind" of roll, or that it has any key word associated with it. It is not a "Damage Roll", in the same way that Deathless Minions is not a "Save Roll". The two may otherwise be functionally the same, but these terms have specific meaning in AoS and there is nothing to say that they apply here.

I hope you can all understand why I don't think twitch streams and interviews should be used as a basis for rules debates that have absolutely no basis in what GW have actually written. Maybe they house-ruled it that way, maybe they were playtesting some future rules update that isn't out yet, maybe this happened so long after they actually wrote the rules that they forgot what they had written (or forgot some last-minute change they made). Maybe they just don't have a clue what they are doing. In any case, when I play a game, I expect to use the rulebook to know how to play, not a twitch stream.

This is confusing to me, because if the designer of the rule himself is using the rule like this, in front of thousands of people watching, then that's a huge problem.  Who can we trust if not from the actual designers themselves?  Maybe this was their intention as in RAI, but RAW states otherwise.

Either way, I would be fine with playing with the "less powerful" version of the interpretation until we see an FAQ, but this is really one of those things that need to be FAQ'd immediately as it does make a big difference.

[Arkiham]

I get the feeling this is a other case of, nerf magic into the ground as wizards are op. Always.

"Oh my my God that wizard just done d6/d3 mortal wounds against my unit" nerf him!!

"Oh that unit of archers just decimated my unit. good for them, nice rolls"

As you know there's no such thing as dispelling, or staying out of range of casting, unlike with archers who can move then shoot with pin point accuracy, even into combat with absolutely no penalty..

Casting a spell? Better make sure my wizard is withing range for my next turn, (which is often within dispell range, definitely within shooting range and often within charge reach  )

Oh, no they moved 1 millimeter out of my range. Dang it can't do that this turn. 

 

Even if they used that 6 to turn the d6 into a 6 it won't happen  every turn, every spell, unlike turn after turn of archers laying waste until you kill them.

[Choombatta]

2 hours ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

4 pages of rules...

Looks clear to me, Mortal Wounds do not follow the normal process of to hit, to wound, damage and therefore the roll cannot be changed.

Determining damage comes under 'making attacks'

Inflicting damage is separate to determining damage.

Also just because someone on WHTV or a podcast has said or done something doesn't make it become law.

Most importantly, use the most important rule when playing a game, don't waste precious hobby time trying to figure out the exact right answer. Trust me, it's the way forward!

That above quote says nothing about damage, it only states "hit,wound,and save".

Where it says to allocate the wounds "as described above", is the "above" the Making Attacks section?

[Tanka]

The question came up on the stream in Game 2. Now I know they arent the rules team but Eddie made a deliberate point to Rob that the destiny dice cannot be used for the purpose of deciding mortal wound rolls such as a spell doing D6 mortal wounds.

 

If that is how they are overtly communicating it on warhammer tv then it is good enough for me.

[tolstedt]

Intuition tells me you can use the dice on an arcane bolt.

A more important question is can you take a dice showing 3 from the destiny pool and apply it as a 3 when using it on a d3 roll? Or would you need a 5 or a 6 from the destiny pool to become the 3?

I'm for the former as change fits the army theme and it's a step faster, although it makes all 1-6 numbers rolled from the destiny pool have very clear uses, almost too clear to be tzeentzchy.  That's not a rules issue but a thematic one.

(Forgive me if the question is answered in the tome. I don't have it.)