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Do Destiny dice affect mortal wounds?


HERO

Question

Say a spell or attack does d3/d6 wounds or mortal wounds.

Can Destiny Dice be used to affect this value? e.g. turn a 1 on a roll of d6 to 6.

Context: Destiny dice in the new Tz book affects both WOUND and DAMAGE rolls.

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5 hours ago, tolstedt said:

Intuition tells me you can use the dice on an arcane bolt.

A more important question is can you take a dice showing 3 from the destiny pool and apply it as a 3 when using it on a d3 roll? Or would you need a 5 or a 6 from the destiny pool to become the 3?

I'm for the former as change fits the army theme and it's a step faster, although it makes all 1-6 numbers rolled from the destiny pool have very clear uses, almost too clear to be tzeentzchy.  That's not a rules issue but a thematic one.

(Forgive me if the question is answered in the tome. I don't have it.)

Obviously you would need to use a 5 or 6 to get 3 on a D3 roll?!

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9 hours ago, Choombatta said:

Where it says to allocate the wounds "as described above", is the "above" the Making Attacks section?

No, immediately above is the "Inflicting Damage" section. Judging by the heading style, that is not part of the "Making Attacks" section. It's conceivable that "as described above" could cover more than one section, but "allocate wounds to models" is described solely under "Inflicting Damage".

9 hours ago, Arkiham said:

I get the feeling this is a other case of, nerf magic into the ground as wizards are op.

No-one can prove that isn't their ulterior motive, but there's also no evidence that it is. No offense, but it's not really helpful.

6 hours ago, tolstedt said:

A more important question is can you take a dice showing 3 from the destiny pool and apply it as a 3 when using it on a d3 roll? Or would you need a 5 or a 6 from the destiny pool to become the 3?

The main rules say a D3 is a D6 halved, rounding up. So I'm inclined to the latter option.

11 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

If we're getting this semantic, the term "damage roll" doesn't actually exist in the main rules...

True. Like much of GW rules, we have to infer meaning. I think "a roll made using the 'Damage' characteristic, using the 'Determine Damage' section of the rules" is the most obvious, how else would you suggest we interpret it?

For example, would you include the dice rolled by a banshee when resolving her howl?

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15 hours ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

That's my point. Mortal wounds have nothing to with the damage part of a normal attack. 

But Mortal Wounds CAN have something to do with a normal attack, just not in every instance.

Some mortal wounds are caused by a "hit" roll.

Some are caused by a "wound" roll.

Some are caused by a "save" roll.

Some are caused by a "casting" roll.

Some are caused by a "terrain" roll.

Mortal Wounds, like Damage, do not come from 1 and only 1 source( i.e. Damage does not only come from a Weapon characteristic).

IMHO, when it says 6 Mortal Wounds, or d6 Mortal Wounds, or 1 for the Damage characteristic of a weapon, all are causing "damage" to be allocated, as "wounds".

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9 hours ago, Choombatta said:

Mortal Wounds, like Damage, do not come from 1 and only 1 source( i.e. Damage does not only come from a Weapon characteristic).

Can you point me to anywhere in the rules the term "damage" is used, not referring to the damage characteristic and/or "determine damage" section of the rules?

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3 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Can you point me to anywhere in the rules the term "damage" is used, not referring to the damage characteristic and/or "determine damage" section of the rules?

You were the one who pointed me to it.

In the Mortal Wounds section, it states to "Just allocate the wounds to models from the target unit as described above."

You said the "above" section is the "determine damage" section.

**EDIT**

Also, when reading certain warscrolls, for example Retributors or Bloodletters........

Their rules state when a condition occurs, for example, rolling a 6 to wound for Retributors, you do Mortal Wounds instead of the normal damage. If Mortal Wounds are not damage, why add the qualifier of "normal"?

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On 1/19/2017 at 3:00 PM, Arkiham said:

Depends,  off 9 dice you should get by averages 1 6 and maybe another.

On the stream yesterday the guy didn't roll a single 6 and 4 ones.

I don't see it being overpowered due to its lack of consistency.

 

It can be both OP and inconsistent.  Try telling the guy in your pick up game that it's not inconsistent when he rolls 7 sixes and 2 ones (good for morale checks).

Rules like this are great for narrative games, where the story is far more important than the win or loss, but in competitive games, they can ruin the experience.  Exact same models, exact same tactical choices, exact same points, but wildly different capabilities?  Not cool.

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On 1/19/2017 at 5:54 PM, HERO said:

Who can we trust if not from the actual designers themselves?

Maybe things have changed, but in the old days designers were notorious for not playing their own rules correctly. Often, their rules go through several changes over testing. They could easily be mixing up final print rules with a version they liked better.

I was one of their playtesters for 6th edition Warhammer.  We saw changes at the last minute fairly often. People get confused. Designers are people.

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1 hour ago, Choombatta said:

You were the one who pointed me to it.

In the Mortal Wounds section, it states to "Just allocate the wounds to models from the target unit as described above."

You said the "above" section is the "determine damage" section.

**EDIT**

Also, when reading certain warscrolls, for example Retributors or Bloodletters........

Their rules state when a condition occurs, for example, rolling a 6 to wound for Retributors, you do Mortal Wounds instead of the normal damage. If Mortal Wounds are not damage, why add the qualifier of "normal"?

Actually, I said it's the "Inflicting Damage" section.

But you're right, I have to agree that Mortal Wounds are a form of "damage".

If the rule talked about "a roll to determine how much damage is dealt by an attack, spell, or ability", then I would agree.

As it stands, though, I still feel that we shouldn't take the term "damage roll" to mean any dice roll to determine if and how much damage is caused.

It could do with an FAQ, since the term "damage roll" isn't mentioned anywhere in the rules, but I still feel that the best interpretation is to only apply it to rolls made using the "Determine Damage" section and the "Damage" characteristic.

That would be consistent with Hit Rolls, Wound Rolls, and Save rolls, all of which refer specifically to their relevant rules section and characteristic.

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38 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Maybe things have changed, but in the old days designers were notorious for not playing their own rules correctly. Often, their rules go through several changes over testing. They could easily be mixing up final print rules with a version they liked better.

This goes right along with the "First Blood" article in January's White Dwarf -- the one where Melissa's Skink Starpriest was summoning units (on their Facebook page, White Dwarf acknowledged their error, since only Kroak and the Slann can summon Seraphon units).

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Worth noting that since the FAQ established that you only make one damage roll for a given attack, being able to use Destiny Dice to set damage at all is very powerful. A couple of 5s in your pool means max damage from all your Flamers for a couple of turns in a row, for example. The flipside is that they are regular wounds with no rend.

With that in mind I support the interpretation that you can't set Mortal Wounds, both for the reasons outlined above and for the health of the game. I've been on the receiving end of a couple of lucky Warp Lightning Cannon shots at the beginning of a 1000 point game on a small board - saying goodbye to a few heroes before you can do anything isn't fun. Being able to guarantee that sort of damage with a lucky Destiny roll would be a bit much, I think.

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7 hours ago, CJPT said:

Worth noting that since the FAQ established that you only make one damage roll for a given attack, being able to use Destiny Dice to set damage at all is very powerful. A couple of 5s in your pool means max damage from all your Flamers for a couple of turns in a row, for example. The flipside is that they are regular wounds with no rend.

With that in mind I support the interpretation that you can't set Mortal Wounds, both for the reasons outlined above and for the health of the game. I've been on the receiving end of a couple of lucky Warp Lightning Cannon shots at the beginning of a 1000 point game on a small board - saying goodbye to a few heroes before you can do anything isn't fun. Being able to guarantee that sort of damage with a lucky Destiny roll would be a bit much, I think.

Lol. God forbid Flamers do damage. 

You're right, getting shot off the board is not fun. But this is age of Sigmar and most of the bs in this game stems from questionable shooting rules.

Regardless though, I will be happy to and faq soon.

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Reading the rules, I would say that you can use the destiny dice on Mortal wounds abilities that cause d3 or d6 wounds. This being because the rules under "Inflicting Damage" apply to mortal wounds caused, ergo mortal wounds cause damage. Since the roll to determine how many mortal wounds are caused inflicts damage, that would make it a damage roll. There's really no other way to describe it. If not that, what else would it be called? A "mortal wounds inflicted roll"? There is no such thing, and there's no need to assume something is more complicated than it is, Occam's Razor applies here. As such, rolling for mortal wounds caused qualifies as a Damage roll.

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Just wanted to post this image from the battle report in white dwarf. I know it's not an FAQ or anything, but it's what I'm going to be following. 

tldr: looks like yes you can use destiny dice for mortal wounds, like the bolt of Tzeentch example in the image.

IMG_2802.JPG

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On 1/20/2017 at 1:12 AM, Choombatta said:

That above quote says nothing about damage, it only states "hit,wound,and save".

Where it says to allocate the wounds "as described above", is the "above" the Making Attacks section?

If mortal wounds are not damage, how would you resolve allocating wounds when you allocate Inflicted Damage? (See Inflicted damage in rules). As you are not treating Mortal Wounds as damage, you cannot allocate them. 

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On 2/2/2017 at 3:27 AM, grim squeaker said:

If mortal wounds are not damage, how would you resolve allocating wounds when you allocate Inflicted Damage? (See Inflicted damage in rules). As you are not treating Mortal Wounds as damage, you cannot allocate them. 

Just to point out, I was saying Mortal wounds are damage from the beginning.

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I agree that mortal wounds are damage, the question is what is meant by a "damage roll", exactly. If it includes any roll to determine how much damage an ability causes, would that include stuff like a banshee's howl, or one of the dice rolled for the "Winds of Chaos" spell from a chaos sorcerer lord on manticore? When Arkhan the Black casts Curse of Years, are those ten dice rolled damage rolls? Or should it only apply when a spell or ability inflicts D3 or D6 mortal wounds, not to anything with a more complicated mechanic?

In Age of Sigmar, the terms "hit roll", "wound roll", and "save roll" all refer specifically to steps 1-3 of "Making Attacks". They do not refer to other spells or abilities that happen to work in a similar way — that's why I can't use "Mystic Shield" to improve my "Deathless Minion" rolls — they aren't "Saves", it's just an ability that happens to work like a save, to the point where even the official FAQ refers to it as a "special save".

I can't say for certain how GW will eventually FAQ this, or whether we should take the White Dwarf as a ruling for now, but I'm really hoping they'll make "damage rolls" consistent with "hit rolls", "wound rolls", and "save rolls", only affecting the "normal" attack procedure, and not any spells or abilities. Mainly because spells and abilities don't all follow the same structure, so without some very carefully-defined ruling (which I doubt we'll get), I worry that this is going to open up a whole host of oddball situations down the line.

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Personally, I think it was an oversight by the writers. I believe they intend for it to be usable with mortal wounds as there are examples of their team doing so. They simply didn't make the rules clear because they wanted to keep it as nine affected characteristics for fluffiness and expected gamers to, as posted earlier, Occam's Razer it.

Also interested to know if people in the discussion are not planning on playing DoT? Just because you know, that one six being used on a spell for six mortal wounds in one turn isn't nice sure, but come on... Thundertusk.

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