Black Knights

[Kuwanger23]

Hey guys,

I have heard that black knights are pretty bad and of little to no use.  I know two wound models that you get d3 back seem good on the attrition side but I can see how their offense is lacking.  What do people think of them?  Use them for?  

 

thanks

[Squirrelmaster]

TBH they aren't great on the attrition side either, compared to just about any other banner-bearing death unit.

The only thing I'd use them for is proxies for the Tomb King Skeleton Horsemen.

I guess they aren't completely terrible, just not very good for anything, really.

[TerrorPenguin]

I like them, but I know that people who do are a rarity. Basically they do not hit well, but they are a great tar pit. If you can get them between your enemy and an objective they can hold up quite nicely. Now ok, they are not going to hold their own against a bloodthirster, but as a speed bump they're great. They regenerate as well as any other death unit (they are 2 wounds x d3 each turn, you can't roll the one you could get with skellies) and they move pretty quickly.

As has been pointed out on this forum before as well, you can always retreat with them. Border war? Shoe up a flank objective before your opponent gets there, then as your real scoring unit arrives, retreat and make a run for the objective in the opponents deployment zone.

 

[Kuwanger23]

So what could I put in my 1000pt skeleton horde list?  I posted my list in an earlier thread.  To get the necromancer I had to make sacrifices that only left me with 120pts.

[klunc]

They are great in a big unit of 10 or 15 as a roadblock that goes nowhere, especially with a Mystic Shield or against no rend troops.

A unit of 5 makes a decent late-game objective grabber.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Tbh I use them to pretty great success, but it's about managing expectations. No they will not delete units for you, but they can put the hurt on, especially in low points games. For example, my 760pt list ran 10 of them in a local tournie, and they did great work. The only game I lost was the one where they were focused down turn 1 by my opponent. Otherwise they were a thorn in the side of everyone else.

Here's a few tips I'd say:
- They have a guaranteed 18" threat range with a Musician, as they get move 12 + 6" minimum charge. That makes them very reliable,
- Give them +1 attack from either the Wight King or Vampire Lord on the charge before they go in, and they'll do twice the damage as normal,
- Abilities that buff their to Hit roll or allow them to reroll it help mitigate the woeful 4+ to Hit Death works with. Settra does this in a nice, passive way,
- Retreat. After the first turn, you're going to be doing so little damage it's tragic, and they don't want to be tied down,
- Have a follow-up unit ready. What this means is that the Black Knights will rough up the opposing unit a little, take a few hits, then retreat so that your follow-up hits them,
- Tag-team the Black Knights with another unit to keep an enemy unit pinned down. Charge flanks wherever possible to pull the enemy unit out of position and mitigate the amount of damage you'll be taking,
- Target enemy cavalry. You'll negate their charge bonus which means they'll normally struggle to inflict meaningful damage on you, which you can outheal. Keep them pinned for a more hitty unit to finish off. If they retreat, chase them down,
- With Settra, you can use his Incantation of the Desert Wind to give them double Movement + Fly. Charge the enemy line, then Fly them behind the line to attack their objective. It's very handy if your opponent has left it lightly-defended, and it'll force them to either commit part of their defensive line to chasing them down thus weakening it for your main force, or they ignore them in which case you regen back to full strength and start bullying the squad holding their objective in a way they can't ignore. Did this on Border War, turns out most people put a token garrison on their objective so jumping over to it and nabbing it is easy with a 10 man unit once they put some pain down on the charge,
- Cover them with Deathless if you can,
- Also avoid really nasty stuff with high damage and decent Rend,
- Charge ranged units and spread out as much as possible. They're often not only vulnerable in CQB, but they also often get abilities to put out more firepower if there are no enemy units within 3". This can make life easier on the rest of your army by suppressing their shooters,

Granted I just really like Black Knights aesthetically and endeavour to make them work. Even if they don't kill much, I have had few games where my opponents weren't cursing their disruptive abilities afterwards. Never underestimate a unit that can endure attrition for a game, then retreat and regen back to full strength to smack a crippled unit on an objective. In the late game when both sides are worn down is when the Black Knights can be real nasty, especially when dealing with slow armies.

Skeleton Horsemen are handy by comparison. They're 100pts for 5 and Battleline, and identical save for a couple of features:
- Black Knights are 120pts for 5,
- Black Knights get Damage 2 on the Charge, Skelly Horses don't, meaning that BKs put twice the hurt on the charge as Skeleton Horsmen do,
- BKs have a 5+ save, SHs are 6+,
- BK shields give +1 Save against Rend 0, SH shields get +1 Save in combat only, so one is more able to weather shooting, especially Rend 0 shooting,
- Skeleton Horsemen can run and charge,

IMO the bonus to Save and Damage is worth the extra 20pts in cost and loss of Batteline, but then I fill out my Battleline with Skeleton Warriors regardless of what else I'm bringing.

[Groje]

I like their flexibility as they are not only fast objective grabber or anoying blocking units but they can also stack nicely some Buffs to deal damage to not to heavily armored troops:

Get them close to damned terrain to sacrifice and get them the +1 to hit. Any casualties can be regenerated via the banner in the hero phase.  the additional +1attack from the wight king and the double activation in combat via the necromancer spell gives you a decent output in your combat phase when they charged. Could be theoretically 74 damage for a 120  points unit, that's okay

[Lord Graves]

Here is a fun list you can run with them as well.. Keep in mind this is for fun.

 

960pts - The Midnight Hunt
Wight King on SS (Gen)        120pts
Wight King on SS + Inf Stand    120pts
Black Knights x10        240pts
Black Knights x10        240pts
Black Knights x5        120pts
Dire Wolves            60pts
Dire Wolves            60pts

Command Trait: Supernatural Horror: Double the number of models that flee from enemy units if they are within 10" of your general in the battleshock phase.
Artefact: Ring of Immortality on General

 

The army is mobile enough to collapse on a flank and retreat if needed when they are at risk of being bogged down. They you rinse and repeat with charges, hopefully.

 

 

[Dangermouse425]

3 hours ago, Lord Graves said:

960pts - The Midnight Hunt
 

This is cool, would love to see it on the tabletop.

[deynon]

On 11/1/2017 at 9:24 AM, Lord Graves said:

Here is a fun list you can run with them as well.. Keep in mind this is for fun.

 

960pts - The Midnight Hunt
Wight King on SS (Gen)        120pts
Wight King on SS + Inf Stand    120pts
Black Knights x10        240pts
Black Knights x10        240pts
Black Knights x5        120pts
Dire Wolves            60pts
Dire Wolves            60pts

Command Trait: Supernatural Horror: Double the number of models that flee from enemy units if they are within 10" of your general in the battleshock phase.
Artefact: Ring of Immortality on General

 

The army is mobile enough to collapse on a flank and retreat if needed when they are at risk of being bogged down. They you rinse and repeat with charges, hopefully.

 

 

maybe cause i'm used to battle against order armies I don't find usually suòernatural horror quite useful, but it can be choosen befire game so no priblem

ring of immortaluty cause the last FAQs us no avalaible in such list:you don't have the point to use it

[Lord Graves]

20 hours ago, deynon said:

maybe cause i'm used to battle against order armies I don't find usually suòernatural horror quite useful, but it can be choosen befire game so no priblem

ring of immortaluty cause the last FAQs us no avalaible in such list:you don't have the point to use it

Ahhhh gotcha. I'm still in the area of theory crafting mostly and trying to keep up with stuff that is being released. Thank you!

[Thomas Lyons]

The question you need to answer is: Why run Blackknights (120 points) over TK Skeletal Horsemen (100 points, battleline)?  It is certainly true that Blackknights have a better point of armor, better charge, and can move through terrain, but for what you are using them for (skirmishers, regenning point holders, tar pit), the Skeletal Horsemen are often the better unit given their cheaper cost and inherent battleline status.

Including them isn't a bad decision, just make sure that the TK Skeletal Horsemen aren't the better choice for how you want to use them.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I honestly can't see what Skeleton Horsemen could achieve given that they do substantially less damage than the already-weak Black Knights. Also with -1 to Save, they fail a bit on the "holding things up" criteria as well, especially against Rend 0. 

[Nubgan]

On a completely different note, if you got the start collecting box for Skeleton Horde, would you make the Black Knights Hex Wraiths instead?

[deynon]

5 hours ago, Nubgan said:

On a completely different note, if you got the start collecting box for Skeleton Horde, would you make the Black Knights Hex Wraiths instead?

magnetize the rider

[mmimzie]

Dont even need to magnetize the roder the hex wraiths flip on and off the only issue i guess is the barding drom the black knights??? Hmm actually not sure how you'd go about that

[deynon]

13 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Dont even need to magnetize the roder the hex wraiths flip on and off the only issue i guess is the barding drom the black knights??? Hmm actually not sure how you'd go about that

they need a little work on the barding to swiftly change and I don't like the little point of contact they have on the back of the horse so I prefer magnets but anyway also a mechanical action suffice

[Squirrelmaster]

21 hours ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

I honestly can't see what Skeleton Horsemen could achieve given that they do substantially less damage than the already-weak Black Knights. Also with -1 to Save, they fail a bit on the "holding things up" criteria as well, especially against Rend 0. 

Cheaper, battleline, just as good for grabbing an objective early on or limiting/controlling enemy movement.

Damage-wise I feel like the BKs are already not really doing enough to be significant, so the SH doing less doesn't really make a difference.

Survival-wise I feel the -1 Save isn't huge, especially given the reduced points cost and battleline.

And I don't think anyone's mentioned yet, but SH are faster, since they can run-and-charge. Again, for taking/contesting objectives or controlling enemy movement, that's a big deal.

[Nubgan]

14 hours ago, deynon said:

magnetize the rider

 

14 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Dont even need to magnetize the roder the hex wraiths flip on and off the only issue i guess is the barding drom the black knights??? Hmm actually not sure how you'd go about that

But out of the same kit, are Hex wraiths anymore worth it from a gaming stand point? not really bothered how easy it is to have both

I agree, they aren't the most fantastic cavelry out there. But which do people value more for the points?

[deynon]

Just now, Nubgan said:

 

But out of the same kit, are Hex wraiths anymore worth it from a gaming stand point? not really bothered how easy it is to have both

I agree, they aren't the most fantastic cavelry out there. But which do people value more for the points?

Yes, they are. COmbined with Settra they are much better than black knights. And they are usuful in a nighhunt list too.

Sincerly I use relateely less both of them now as now but cause i'm using other things. They are anyway quite good.

DOn't forget that the wraiths are ethereal  and the knight are quite fast and does not little damage to light units for quite cheap price.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I don't see what Settra does for them that he doesn't also do for Black Knights?

Hexwraiths seem quite good though, I'm tempted to get a box or two and try them out.

[deynon]

7 hours ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

I don't see what Settra does for them that he doesn't also do for Black Knights?

Hexwraiths seem quite good though, I'm tempted to get a box or two and try them out.

cause their ruke "spectral hunters" that with Settra works on 5+ instead of 6

[CoffeeGrunt]

14 hours ago, deynon said:

cause their ruke "spectral hunters" that with Settra works on 5+ instead of 6

No it doesn't, it's not a To Hit roll.

[deynon]

6 minutes ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

No it doesn't, it's not a To Hit roll.

true, my mistake. 

[MidnightCardinal]

A list I was having fun with for a while at 1000 points was. 
10 Black knights
10 Black Knights
1 Wight King on Skeletal Steed
1 Vampire Lord on Nightmare Steed
1 Coven Throne

Coven throne was added in because I had one painted up and wanted to play around with it, its a good attack boat throwing out a decent 25 attacks a turn whilst also being a decent mage to keep things tied together.  Wightking is there to give my Black Knights a bit more staying power as well as providing more attack volumes and the Vampire on steed is for solo hunting, he's on a horse because flavour with the list. I roll the first line of black knights in, let them retreat as the second buffed unit rolls in after them Vampire tug boat in tow right behind that.