Faq Making Warrior Brother hood even better? Mistake

[wanderingrogue1]

Just saw this in the faq.....flabbergasted

"THE BATTLE BEGINS

Q: What is ‘set-up’, exactly?

A: ‘Set-up’ is typically when a unit is placed on the table during deployment, but can also refer to a unit being deployed in a location other than on the battlefield, or being put into play once the game has started (a unit using the Stormcast Eternal Warrior Chamber’s Lightning Strike, the Chameleon Skinks’ Chameleon Ambush, or the Treelord’s Spirit Paths ability, for example). Models can set up within 3" of the enemy, even if they are set up in the movement phase, unless noted otherwise in the rules for the ability that allows them to be set up once the battle is under way. "

 

Is this a typo? Should it actually say "cannot"?

 

Because if so thats some grade A bs right there. Has this not been caught before? Or am i making a mountain out of a mole hill? 

 

Cos at the moment that to me is making a stupidly good formation even better for no good reason

[rokapoke]

Lightning Strike specifically requires you to be more than 9" from the enemy. So this part of the FAQ doesn't apply here because it is "noted otherwise."

[Turragor]

Too much 'awooooga' on the boards this week!

Everyone needs to do their yoga.

[Siegfried VII]

With the help of a Knight Azyros and this faq you can drop units in close combat (within 3 inches)...

[wanderingrogue1]

Thats my point siegfied....

 

....thats my point...

[wanderingrogue1]

1 hour ago, rokapoke said:

Lightning Strike specifically requires you to be more than 9" from the enemy. So this part of the FAQ doesn't apply here because it is "noted otherwise."

But the azyros...which everyone runs.....allows then to deploy closer...

 

...personally i think its silly that this is allowed and is just TOO good; hence the spate of netlisting the warrior brother hood list....this faq entry makes it even better/stupider

[discoking]

I think this FAQ is more about preventing any future escalation like shenanigans where one player can block a player from deploying troops altogether.

[rokapoke]

26 minutes ago, wanderingrogue1 said:

But the azyros...which everyone runs.....allows then to deploy closer...

Such is the point of the Azyros. In my opinion, GW has specifically made strong combos like this for most of the factions -- stacking Bloodsecrators, Wildwood spam, etc. it's the game as designed, quite frankly. 

[Requizen]

This is why you need chaff units. Yes, I can drop my Protectors right into combat and pile in without having to make a charge. But that doesn't mean much if you have Skeletons between them and the target I need to get to. There are plenty of things that can flank or move surprisingly fast/teleport in this game, so it's just good practice anyway.

[Nico]

Quote

Just saw this in the faq.....flabbergasted

This is old news. That part of the FAQ is untouched since it came out (and rightly so). The amendments to the "Move" part of the FAQ make the bright line between set ups and moves even brighter. Clan Skryre and the Warrior Brotherhood (and other abilities) have been doing this for months (and the latter has won a number of tournaments). I've posted numerous times on this subject - please try using the search function - perhaps "Warrior Brotherhood" or "bright line".

Just because you have a 3" long Combat Gauge does not mean that the 3" rule is on some sort of sacred pedestal - it's specific to "moves".

The fact that there's another hard counter to Fanatics is no bad thing either.

It's even advertised on the Community Website:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/29/top-5-lists-from-blood-glory/

 

Quote

 

Below, you’ll find the top 5 army lists, and we’ll bring you more on these lists direct from the players themselves later this week and next week, starting with winner, Ben Johnson.

---

Ben’s army comprises a single Warscroll Battalion – the ‘Warrior Brotherhood’. What’s great about this particular battalion is that it allows every unit to deploy using Lightening Strikes. This means you don’t need to set them up on the board and can instead deploy your army as near as 3″ to the enemy (it’s normally further away than this, but clever placement of the two Knight-Azyros models reduce this)! Paladins are super hitty and can smash most units in a single turn, but what makes them even more deadly is placing them on the board next to a Knight-Azyros and a Liberator squad. As part of the Warrior Brotherhood, this means they’ll get +1 Bravery and the ability to re-roll 1’s to wound.

Ben’s army works, then, by having two of these rock-hard attack wings – Knight-Azyros, Paladins and Liberators, allowing him to either attack two key places on the board at once or encircle and destroy a particular powerful enemy unit. So, if you’re planning on using the Warrior Brotherhood, make sure your Stormcast Eternals army has a Knight-Azyros in it.

 

 

 

In practice it means that you need to bring chaff; and wall off stuff/bubble wrap a bit more carefully than you would naturally against the Vexillor plus Retributors combo that we all know and love.

Bunkering matters at least until you've weathered a double turn and can potentially double turn them back. Alternatively you can try to bait them to come down with too much of what they have in the Celestial Realm and take out something valuable or just send our fast cavalry or a dirt cheap summoned unit (not summoning a hero on 3 Places of Power - you need to "move" onto an objective to score it, setting up isn't a move) that isn't worth much to start scoring on some Battleplans.

There's still almost no way that the classic (no Dracoth Cavalry) Warrior Brotherhood can beat an army consisting of nothing but Bonesplitterz for example - even just 1700 points of Boyz would be an amusing 170 models or 340 wounds with a 6+ ward against Starsoul Maces. They are on pretty big bases so even Decimators aren't going to cut it and they aren't going to deploy like muppets either. Obviously model count will matter when it comes to flooding objectives - and they will sometimes hit that double on Hand of Gork and send 80 wounds forward 5 in the hero phase, then (15+3D6) in the movement phase to flood objectives even better.

 

[wanderingrogue1]

yes, i got beaten by it twice at blood and glory... once by the winner..

 

i know what it can do and how screening is kinda helpfull but not massivly... AND my opponents didnt even play it this way.. they kept out of 3 inches...

 

so even ben johnson didnt play it like the faq says... which is why i kinda asked

[Nico]

As I said for that army it doesn't make much difference (except against Fanatics) or unless you really like double 1ing a charge. Also if you rolled well for a charge you might actually get further into enemy lines than if you deployed into combat (i.e. such that you cannot charge). For example, you could charge through the hole that your Judicators and other pew pew shot in their lines between the Paladins setting up in the Movement phase and the Combat Phase.

Not to mention - did he have Reckless on the Azyros or other general near the Paladins, so they could reroll the double 1 failed charge; and potentially reroll if they needed a long bomb to get a Prosecutor unit within range of a distant hero with the 3" range? 

It does matter more for other combinations, e.g. Skryre.

As powerful as it is, it's still a rock paper scissors type army (just with fewer hard counters than most) susceptible to horde lists. A huge wall of Skeletons surrounding a few reasonably tough heroes will laugh off the Starsoul maces with their 5+ ward saves and shuffle towards the objective.

[tolstedt]

Also you have to put the units in the right spot to utilize the Azyros. This is important to note. You don't get free range across the board at all times.

You still make decisions. You still pick where to go and what to fight and what to defend and what to risk.  It's not an auto win. The game is still dynamic with this battalion on the board. It's not boring or mean or spammy. It is in fact quite dynamic and emblematic of the games interesting armies.

Deploying straight into combat is simply a tactical idea, the same as any other ability in Sigmar. It can give you an advantage if you play smart and pay attention, but to do so requires a player to leverage the imbalances and push for an advantage. If we entertain an examination of this particular idea more closely, Nico has provided one above, we can see that it is not always even ideal to deploy in contact.

When you put a unit in a spot, you create space elsewhere for opponent's models. This is an exploitable imbalance considering the battalion only carries around 50 bodies.

So long as an army demands these things from the player it's not an issue.  It is fun and requires focus and tactical and strategic foresight to play this list.

I would urge you to more thoroughly consider whether things like this are worth taking issue with before posting declarative threads. It will be better for the community to make a thread that instead focuses on discussing the advantages and disadvantages of a given army.

The worry about netlisting is invalid. A large range of armies are present at tournaments as a quick glance at the recent podiums in UK will show.

[kozokus]

Just a simple queston BTW.

I have always deployed SCE units at least 1 model on 5" of the Azyros and the rest conga-lining to the ennemy.

Recently someone pointed me that ALL the unit should be deployed within the 5" range, like things are made for the fanatics for example.

Does anyone have any advice on that?

[Olincay]

19 minutes ago, kozokus said:

Just a simple queston BTW.

I have always deployed SCE units at least 1 model on 5" of the Azyros and the rest conga-lining to the ennemy.

Recently someone pointed me that ALL the unit should be deployed within the 5" range, like things are made for the fanatics for example.

Does anyone have any advice on that?

Pretty sure it states *Within 5"*
So as long as one model is *Within 5"* it's fine.

[wanderingrogue1]

6 hours ago, tolstedt said:

 

I would urge you to more thoroughly consider whether things like this are worth taking issue with before posting declarative threads. It will be better for the community to make a thread that instead focuses on discussing the advantages and disadvantages of a given army.

 

wasnt really declarative. I asked a question... is this a mistake?

 

[AlexHarrison]

I think it is unfair to call this thread declarative or asking the thread owner to search for this and that, he is simply stating a fact, which is rightly so pointed out. I have heard time and time again about OP combos such as Clan Skyre, bonesplitters arrow spam, stonehorns, sayl the faithless and mourngals, however I think the most broken thing right now is the Warrior brotherhood. 

 

Having an army which can arrive anywhere without deviation (non-deep striking units in 40k is a rarity yet can be countered by interceptor and an easy source of chaff).

Stating to block this with chaff is ridiculous in a game which revolves around a plethora of immovable objectives pre positioned centraly. This makes the game tough for an army which has to predetermine an impossible to stop assault with "chaff" which are also required to push forward and claim objectives.

The Warrior brotherhood has no drawbacks to deploying the entire army in reserve and appearing whenever it choose. It can deploy in potentially one or 2 drops making it almost always going 2nd, giving it the chance to double turn you (kill the chaff then assault the juicy stuff with paladins which are not easy to kill). This gives the warrior brotherhood the opportunity to jump onto all the open objectives as the enemy is busy bubble wrapping. 

 

This faq makes it easier to jump over those chaff lines as you would have to place them even close to your juicy targets preventing them from deploying the chaff further up. Personally this mechanic is fairly silly and reduces the chance of counter play which im suprised people arn't worried about. The Warrior brotherhood has won 3 major tournaments now and still there hasn't been any speculation as to how overpowered the formation is? 

[Nico]

The Fanatic wording is the same as the Hammerstrike force (it says set up the " Retributors" as well as the "unit" i.e. Elegant variation so these things should mean the same).

Most other rules say "models" when they mean all models within and "units" when they mean units within. They've comped Fanatics to stop them conga-ing for balance reasons, which is fair enough - they were by far the best unit in Destruction for the cost.

The Azyros clearly states "units" within and so conga works.

[Marc Wilson]

They're set up in the Celestial Realm and then the lightning strike 'set up' is their move for that movement phase so, not within 3" - as we all know you can't move with 3". Part of problem is the reference to 'set up' twice.

Wouldn't get any technical writing awards but then i guess it is a game not an Astro physics paper... but yeah I don't disagree. I don't want to drag anyone into thread but as someone who plays WB... it's outside of 3" - ...

That said you'd totally be forgiven for playing it differently, I have, and did at facehammer GT, and so did will be winner and 3rd place and no one is exactly new to warhammer. You won't be able to do this at a uk tourney at least.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nico]

GW have taken the view that the operative wording "set up" is what matters, hence their community website post advertising the combo.

The wording isn't super clear. - The wording you cite only means that you've expended their right to move again for that turn. See the Bloodletter summoning spell for example of clearer wording.

[Marc Wilson]

I don't disagree that that's how it reads, muddy waters indeed! I'm pretty sure that article is wrong and that didn't happen at B&G. 

With WB being very widespread TOs should be ruling it in advance. At the risk of sucking you into a vortex of despair ...how's it being being ruled at the Masters @Ben?

[AlexHarrison]

Exactly and lets be honest, GW havn't got a good history with clear rules or decent FAQ's (until recently) and even then they leave huge gaps.

[Nico]

It has been used in the published and publicised way to win tournaments. If it is now ruled the other way - that will unfairly cast doubt on those wins.

I've posted many times about this issue. If you want to rule that particular battalion the other way for balance reasons, then amend that particular Battalion in an FAQ (or double it's cost) - don't muddy the waters between set-ups and moves; and nerf other stuff inadvertently.

The last time a Battalion was nerfed by changing the core rules (Forest Spirits, which was grossly undercosted), the result was a big buff to Kunning Rukk in general and Arrerboyz in particular and a Pandora's box of unintended consequences.

[Nico]

I think in response to @AlexHarrison, it's a really hard thing to do. They have to get everything right, otherwise a far larger number of people will look for and some will find ways to ruin some games for people (e.g. stopping people bringing on 2/3 of their army on Escalation*). There are unintended consequences from any change.

I'm impressed by the FAQs. Their responsiveness on the D6 multiplying damage (notwithstanding my personal view that the other way was more dramatic/fun - although on reflection Destiny Dice could have made this broken) issue; and the Les Martin Clump was also encouraging. 

*Kudos to GW for making the recent change to the Escalation Battleplan in response to feedback. It does perhaps remove some of the challenge of the original Battleplan, but left unchecked people would increasingly be winning games almost infallibly in 30 minutes on this Battleplan.