Jump to content

Fluff Problems


Recommended Posts

I'm very much like @Kramer with the Old World supporting my narrative, not restricting it. 

What I am missing in AoS is maps and the fluff that came from the army books In the Empire I knew that my Bretonnia allies came from the west, the Vampire powerbase came from Sylvania and was often corrupting my people, we'd take an amazing journey by sea to explore Listeria, Middleheim and Kislev were our first line of defence against Chaos who was moving south, and that there were Nippon and Araby down south! 

My army came from Altdorf with the support of Karl Franz, with a variety of monsters available in the Imperial Zoo. Long story short..Itt was great having this under my belt. 

This might change when the free people get a battletome, and I recognise that it's hard to compare 30 years of WHFB with 2 years of AoS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 313
  • Created
  • Last Reply

@Kramer constantly! As others have said too many factions were tied to specific locations. Whenever we started a new campaign we had to come up with so many forced and contrived reasons for Wood Elves, Tomb Kings and Ogres to be in the same place. We ended up playing a series of campaigns in the same location just so we could use consistent back stories but it got a bit stale.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, MrCharisma said:

I'm very much like @Kramer with the Old World supporting my narrative, not restricting it. 

What I am missing in AoS is maps and the fluff that came from the army books In the Empire I knew that my Bretonnia allies came from the west, the Vampire powerbase came from Sylvania and was often corrupting my people, we'd take an amazing journey by sea to explore Listeria, Middleheim and Kislev were our first line of defence against Chaos who was moving south, and that there were Nippon and Araby down south! 

My army came from Altdorf with the support of Karl Franz, with a variety of monsters available in the Imperial Zoo. Long story short..Itt was great having this under my belt. 

This might change when the free people get a battletome, and I recognise that it's hard to compare 30 years of WHFB with 2 years of AoS

I mean i can dig this, and it makes the game more of historical in that way, and works great when you recreate the models and schemes of these lands and armies, but for me i like being creative making my army mine own, and coming up with my own reasons to fight. Gives space for me to come of with arbitrary reasons, like my armys led by a necromancer (a former warrior priest of sigmar) who rivals nagash in strength not by power of his own, but the legions of souls he has freed using a combination of powers stolen and given to him from negash and sigmar. Living in a the lost realm where normal life fails to exist, and the lost souls can live thier as everything they seeing is what they remember from thier former lives. Almost as if they are perpetually lost in thier own worlds; using other lost souls as imaginary fouls to augment thier realities for all eternity. 

This is something Feel like there was no space for in warhammer fantasy battle. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Kramer said:

Although I do understand the argument that people like the freedom for their narratives. But I wonder, did you ever feel the Old World restricted you? @Double Misfire @WarbossKurgan @mmimzie

Yes and no. I'd been in love with the old WFB setting and playing games in it for almost 20 years and knew every inch of the geography and background much better than I've ever known anything in real life. The most developed parts of the setting (the Empire being the most developed by a very wide margin) would have been very hard to set a large scale campaign in, but when your average game of WFB probably featured about 100 models a side you're not exactly going to be laying siege to Altdorf or overthrowing Malekith (hell, you wouln't put a dent in Bogenhafen), so that factor was never much of an issue for me.

I loved mining the incredibly rich, established parts of the world for background for my armies and battles, and the less developed parts of the setting like the Border Princes and Albion were great settings for campaigns (the Border Princes deliberately so). Looking back, what I disliked about the WFB setting, especially compared to the scope offered by Age of Sigmar were the limitations I saw fit to impose on my own lists, converted miniatures and paintschemes, wanting them to accurately reflect the (comparatively narrow and restrictive compared to 40k and AoS) background of the setting - for example I'd never have regularly taken a Steam Tank in an Empire army when there are only supposed to eight of them in the entire Empire, despite it being a unit that was both very powerful and had fun to use, unique rules mechanics. Opponents with Chaos lists containing units belonging to two rival gods were the death of me!

Age of Sigmar on the other hand is like 40k in that while the setting's main locations and dramatis personae are very established (and only getting better the more books come out), and that it's got big enough universe that you can populate as many "planets" as you feel like with whatever kind of armies or fiefdoms you want without feeling guilty about. If the Age of Sigmar background continues to go in the direction GW say they've taken with the new Tzeentch book (cities n' cultists n' ordinary Joes n' stuff) and developing at the rate it has I dare say that while the Warhammer World will always live on in my heart the Age of Sigmar background might even be better than it in a couple of years time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Yes and no. I'd been in love with the old WFB setting and playing games in it for almost 20 years and knew every inch of the geography and background much better than I've ever known anything in real life. The most developed parts of the setting (the Empire being the most developed by a very wide margin) would have been very hard to set a large scale campaign in, but when your average game of WFB probably featured about 100 models a side you're not exactly going to be laying siege to Altdorf or overthrowing Malekith (hell, you wouln't put a dent in Bogenhafen), so that factor was never much of an issue for me.

I loved mining the incredibly rich, established parts of the world for background for my armies and battles, and the less developed parts of the setting like the Border Princes and Albion were great settings for campaigns (the Border Princes deliberately so). Looking back, what I disliked about the WFB setting, especially compared to the scope offered by Age of Sigmar were the limitations I saw fit to impose on my own lists, converted miniatures and paintschemes, wanting them to accurately reflect the (comparatively narrow and restrictive compared to 40k and AoS) background of the setting - for example I'd never have regularly taken a Steam Tank in an Empire army when there are only supposed to eight of them in the entire Empire, despite it being a unit that was both very powerful and had fun to use, unique rules mechanics. Opponents with Chaos lists containing units belonging to two rival gods were the death of me!

Age of Sigmar on the other hand is like 40k in that while the setting's main locations and dramatis personae are very established (and only getting better the more books come out), and that it's got big enough universe that you can populate as many "planets" as you feel like with whatever kind of armies or fiefdoms you want without feeling guilty about. If the Age of Sigmar background continues to go in the direction GW say they've taken with the new Tzeentch book (cities n' cultists n' ordinary Joes n' stuff) and developing at the rate it has I dare say that while the Warhammer World will always live on in my heart the Age of Sigmar background might even be better than it in a couple of years time.

I agree with you completely and utterly. I really like the old world and the stories told there but the scope and how the AOS fluff has been developing has got it's hooks on me. 

 I mean the recent book that got put up early and taken down has me excited. This book blurb is tickling all the right bits I like about warhammer fluff and I feel you can easily see how tzeentch would corrupt the poor and downtrodden. I mean having a glimpse of your future? Hope for something better? Just sign the dotted line where you hand over your soul for your "better" tomorrow. 

Then the tzeentch tome dealing with the main established cities and tzeentch corrupting the populace through intrigue and cults has me pretty excited. 

CL Werner and Josh reynolds have said they enjoy writing AOS because it's much more open in what they could do with the story without upsetting things. 

Josh just recently responded on something similar to the subject I like stormcast now mind you in context of the newer novels characterizing them better but I feel it's relevant. 

 

Do you think there is currently too much focus on the Stormies? I admit I ask as I liked Fantasy because we knew and saw a lot of the 'common mortal'. AoS feels very: "space marines!!" "Over the top mega cities!" "Massive everythingggg, power fantasyyyy! It sold well in 40k!"

Not really? If you don't like them, obviously you'll have a different opinion. I mean, the last few releases haven't had anything to do with them, really...Sylvaneth, Beastclaw Raiders, Bonesplittaz, and the forthcoming Tzeentch Arcanites, which, lemme tell you, is a book FULL of common mortals doing things.

The fact of it is, the Stormcasts are a new faction, and they're a fairly popular faction, saleswise, so they got a bunch of stuff out the gate. A lot of the BL stuff focuses on them because the fiction was initially cheek-to-jowl with the game books. Now that that's changed, you'll start to see more of that 'common man' stuff in the novels and the stories.

Also, I know this, because I just turned in the first draft of an AOS book that's nothing but normal (relatively) people struggling against great odds.

THE STORY 
Excelsis is the city of secrets, a grand and imposing bastion of civilisation in the savage Realm of Beasts. Within its winding streets and shadowy back alleys, merchants deal in raw prophecy mined from an ancient fragment of the World That Was, and even the poorest man may earn a glimpse of the future. Yet not all such prophecies can be trusted. When Corporal Armand Callis of the city guard stumbles upon a dark secret, he finds himself on the run from his former comrades, framed for a crime he did not commit. Only the Witch Hunter Hanniver Toll knows the truth of his innocence. Together the pair must race against time to save Excelsis from a cataclysm that would drown the city in madness and fear. 

2526d7c3160cde7462a6fd6bd4def57c_5394.jp

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like a lot of the others have posted, I like that the fluff is very "your dudes"-friendly. However, I feel it needs to become more structured. I still don't really know what the daily life of a person in the realm of fire is like. It makes it kinda hard to get invested.

 

At this point, the story is about dudes in golden armour beating up dudes in red armour because the red dudes are bad.. although we never really see why except in some brief backstory, covering literally thousands of years. I'm exxagerating a bit, but I feel that it really needs to start focusing a bit on the little guys, which I hear the next book will do. So that's great :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd be interested to know how much of the fluff the original poster has actually delved into.  I found it a bit lame to start, especially the Vandus vs Khul opening battles but once Realmgate Wars 2/3 were out it really picked up.  

If you dived in at the start and was put off then it is certainly worth picking it back up again

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Ben said:

I'd be interested to know how much of the fluff the original poster has actually delved into.  I found it a bit lame to start, especially the Vandus vs Khul opening battles but once Realmgate Wars 2/3 were out it really picked up.  

If you dived in at the start and was put off then it is certainly worth picking it back up again

Agreed, I felt the same way the series that drew me into the setting was the audio drama Tarsus and Mannfred that was bloody great it was that audio drama that got me to like stormcasts and finally dispelled the whole stormcasts are space marines angle for me. Also getting to hear of human nagash worshipers was pretty neat also. 

Stormcasts and WOC were designed to appeal to SM and CSM players but overall their lore is like night and day. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Ben said:

I'd be interested to know how much of the fluff the original poster has actually delved into.  I found it a bit lame to start, especially the Vandus vs Khul opening battles but once Realmgate Wars 2/3 were out it really picked up.  

If you dived in at the start and was put off then it is certainly worth picking it back up again

I've gotten my fair share from the Realmgate Wars Books (Quest for Ghal Maraz and the like). A bit of my own reading, but a lot supplemented from Garagehammer's recaps.

There are a few things I've had problems with regarding the setting:

Several uses of the phrase "A Thousand Souls Slain with each passing minute", or a much harsher rate. This doesn't even come close to the scope of a relateable battles we could produce on the tabletop.

The lack of things worth fighting for. While the setting is very much a Chaos Controls and Order needs to reclaim, many of the landmarks don't mean anything to either side. Think of Nuln, an strategic hold of the Empire, somewhere that the Empire needs to stand a chance against Chaos. In AoS, Nuln has not only fallen, its ruins and isn't the strategic center it once was. It's another place to be be reclaimed. Yawn. Bored already.

The idea of the vast, spread-out realms doesn't bother me too much. But it seems there is too much emphasis on how strategic the realmgates are that I find much of the rest of the realm is useless.

To add on to this, if we have so many ways to jump from realm to realm without the use of a realmgate (Skaven burrowing, Sigmar's Lightning, what will probably be the Spiderfang Grots' webs, and something death related for death), how significant are holding these gates anyway? Especially when the first thing you do when you claim the gate is lock it from the inside.

Past that, we aren't building much of story behind each of the setting's races. Well, besides that they rush into battle and get slain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jumping on the " im sick of stormcast fluff " boogy. I mean cool, new army fluffy sigmarines as thats GW's main seller then sweet as, no problems. I personally want to see a legends of the age of sigmar for every new battletome. My main army ( Beastclaw Raiders ) didn't get one and i honestly think alot can be done there. Every army has their own character and way of doing things so i dont see why they couldn't do it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, SuperHappyTime said:

I've gotten my fair share from the Realmgate Wars Books (Quest for Ghal Maraz and the like). A bit of my own reading, but a lot supplemented from Garagehammer's recaps.

There are a few things I've had problems with regarding the setting:

Several uses of the phrase "A Thousand Souls Slain with each passing minute", or a much harsher rate. This doesn't even come close to the scope of a relateable battles we could produce on the tabletop.

The lack of things worth fighting for. While the setting is very much a Chaos Controls and Order needs to reclaim, many of the landmarks don't mean anything to either side. Think of Nuln, an strategic hold of the Empire, somewhere that the Empire needs to stand a chance against Chaos. In AoS, Nuln has not only fallen, its ruins and isn't the strategic center it once was. It's another place to be be reclaimed. Yawn. Bored already.

The idea of the vast, spread-out realms doesn't bother me too much. But it seems there is too much emphasis on how strategic the realmgates are that I find much of the rest of the realm is useless.

To add on to this, if we have so many ways to jump from realm to realm without the use of a realmgate (Skaven burrowing, Sigmar's Lightning, what will probably be the Spiderfang Grots' webs, and something death related for death), how significant are holding these gates anyway? Especially when the first thing you do when you claim the gate is lock it from the inside.

Past that, we aren't building much of story behind each of the setting's races. Well, besides that they rush into battle and get slain.

Problem is fighting for all those strategic elements in the empire is pointless case example nuln since in context in a BL story they will NEVER fall just like how the dark elves would never make any gains on the high elves or the vampire counts just making mean faces at the empire while chaos does the actual work. 

BL have stated it's frustrating writing for whfb because in context they can't do anything in the setting since it would upset it too much. Why do you think there are so many stories for 40k? Also why GW can easily make cadia fall? The galaxy is a big place where they can easily add a new planet of significance and a new story. 

The importance of realm gates is the simple fact you can move items almost anything between realms. They are used for moving armies, TRADE which is the most important thing needed for cities and obviously military applications. 

If you want to rebuild you civilization capturing and controlling such things are important. Especially when there are no safer means of transportation in the realms 

Yes even grand alliance death had an economy nagash has tons of human worshipers of course shyish is plunged into war and contested but it seems nagash is getting ready to strike again. Also they go into how they survive and the stormcast meeting a tribe of sigmarite worshipers in the realm of ghur fully makes them realize what they are fighting for. 

Sigmar's lightning is only a one way street he can't call them back hence why they need to capture realm gates and secure them if he wants to starting rebuilding. Also skaven have no need for such things but in skaven fashion being able to pop up anywhere and raid and take slaves is a thing they do. Also there is a story in the everchosen battletome of Archaon waging war on the spiderfang to take one of their web tunnels. 

I mean sure you have your opinion but in my opinion whfb got boring to me why? Because I could easily predict how it ends oh look a chaos horde is going to attack ostland! Well who cares? It's not going to fall anyway even if it should. Ulrika the vampire OMG there is a plan to assassinate the emperor! Like they are really going to assassinate the emperor? Please... in the end they failed obviously. 

Also it being a wargame creating your own stuff in the whfb is just downright troublesome compared to 40k in my opinion. 

In context I always had the belief the empire should be dead in context of the enemies they are facing and considering they don't have an alliance with bretonnia makes it even worse. 

This is just my take on it. Still the new tzeentch stuff might interest you but as double said as AOS has been developing I like the old world but I am starting to prefer AOS. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m sure this has been said before many times but the struggle I’ve had with the first round of AoS fluff has been the monumental scope of it. It’s the same problem I have with a lot of the 40k fluff. When you’re dealing with vast battles it’s hard to really engage without an anchor into the story/battle. For me the master at getting this right is Dan Abnett, his Gaunt’s Ghosts series has been fantastic. He gives you the huge battles but at the same time he gives you individual anchor points into the war, he makes you care about the outcome because you care about the people. With this new setting and new realms things are still so new, we don’t have those individual anchors into the story, although they started to appear as the Realm Gate Wars story arc drew to a close. This first year and a half has been very much like the beginnings of a landscape painting. You start with the broad brushstrokes, the large patches of colour, when that’s done you then start in on the detail. But you need that first stage to then ground the later detail. I’m genuinely excited about what’s ahead, particularly having read the brief blurb of the next BL book. We have this amazing landscape, we have a fantastically versatile world, the possibilities of what GW can then do with that setting or endless. Not only that but it give us gamers and hobbiest the endless possibilities of theming our armies way beyond anything WFB offered. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, EvDJ said:

I’m sure this has been said before many times but the struggle I’ve had with the first round of AoS fluff has been the monumental scope of it. It’s the same problem I have with a lot of the 40k fluff. When you’re dealing with vast battles it’s hard to really engage without an anchor into the story/battle. For me the master at getting this right is Dan Abnett, his Gaunt’s Ghosts series has been fantastic. He gives you the huge battles but at the same time he gives you individual anchor points into the war, he makes you care about the outcome because you care about the people. With this new setting and new realms things are still so new, we don’t have those individual anchors into the story, although they started to appear as the Realm Gate Wars story arc drew to a close. This first year and a half has been very much like the beginnings of a landscape painting. You start with the broad brushstrokes, the large patches of colour, when that’s done you then start in on the detail. But you need that first stage to then ground the later detail. I’m genuinely excited about what’s ahead, particularly having read the brief blurb of the next BL book. We have this amazing landscape, we have a fantastically versatile world, the possibilities of what GW can then do with that setting or endless. Not only that but it give us gamers and hobbiest the endless possibilities of theming our armies way beyond anything WFB offered. 

 

Yup that's pretty much my view on it as well. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mine too. It'll need time to develop, but I'm a person that likes to see how the average person lives in a setting, and thus what the setting looks like from that relatable viewpoint. 

The other factor is that I just don't know enough about the lore to really care how it progresses. "Azyr has fallen!" Is that a city, or is that Sigmar's palace? I dunno, and there's no Age of Sigmar wiki I can find to dive into and learn all the lore like a big, happy sponge. Does it matter if Azyr dies? Probably not, otherwise it'd be mentioned more prominently, surely?

Cadia Falls? I need to know how, why, and what the ramifications are! It's a world that's decades old set at the heart of the Imperial setting for as long, it's got a storied history, it's people are the more recognisable Guard regiment out there, and it's the defiant shield warding off Chaos itself! There's so much at stake!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

Mine too. It'll need time to develop, but I'm a person that likes to see how the average person lives in a setting, and thus what the setting looks like from that relatable viewpoint. 

The other factor is that I just don't know enough about the lore to really care how it progresses. "Azyr has fallen!" Is that a city, or is that Sigmar's palace? I dunno, and there's no Age of Sigmar wiki I can find to dive into and learn all the lore like a big, happy sponge. Does it matter if Azyr dies? Probably not, otherwise it'd be mentioned more prominently, surely?

Cadia Falls? I need to know how, why, and what the ramifications are! It's a world that's decades old set at the heart of the Imperial setting for as long, it's got a storied history, it's people are the more recognisable Guard regiment out there, and it's the defiant shield warding off Chaos itself! There's so much at stake!

I think you will REALLY enjoy the new book coming out going by the interview on warhammer tv. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
On January 6, 2017 at 8:14 AM, CoffeeGrunt said:

The Flesh Eater Courts Battletome is actually a very enjoyable read for the fluff, it's just a shame that I don't like the idea of running an army of cannibal troglodytes. :P

I find it tragic, inthat they live in their own noble fantasy while their body parts fall off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/1/2017 at 5:12 PM, CoffeeGrunt said:

Personally I'm not big on the AoS fluff either. It's difficult to ground yourself in as it's so vast yet so vague, and we know so little of whether, say, the death of a city would be a minor setback or a catastrophic 

That’s the whole point. In the Old World any change was massive. Now any city can be destroyed, we’ve had one over run by Skaven in the lore this week for instance. Only certain places matter and so you can make what stories you want to.  It’s just like 40k.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Redmanphill said:

That’s the whole point. In the Old World any change was massive. Now any city can be destroyed, we’ve had one over run by Skaven in the lore this week for instance. Only certain places matter and so you can make what stories you want to.  It’s just like 40k.

Except there weren't any change in the Old world. Between the time i started warhammer battle and the beginning of age of sigmar, NOTHING happenned. Well, some things happennend, but there were retcon. No one died, no political change, no territorial change (except albion campain, then it was abandonned like a wow expasion empty of it's players), just some new characters that no one cared about or others who disappeared between each codex.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, ledha said:

Except there weren't any change in the Old world. Between the time i started warhammer battle and the beginning of age of sigmar, NOTHING happenned. Well, some things happennend, but there were retcon.

I can't remember where it was said but I recall an interview that the reason there was no change because any change would be too massive for the setting AND certain events could outright destroy factions. Hence why sylvania never has expanded it's borders in the lore or dark elves can never make any gains on the high elves. Since it would delete elector count factions or princes, writers have said they prefer writing for AOS because it's far more open. The change in the setting was deliberate to make it more like 40k. Something I actually approve of because you would never see a lizardman anywhere near Altdorf but in AOS they can actually live and walk around the cities with other races. Even Sylvaneth can be denizens. 

So both you and red are actually correct in a sense. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GW obviously didn't understand what they were doing, because so many factions on a tiny continent are a failure, and indeed they were. One-planet-approach works when it's not fish in a can. LotR or Hyboria worked properly because they were not so densely populated on a small piece of land, and didn't need to fight everywhere and everyone. I am glad GW has learned their mistakes, even if it took them decades.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have ideas, how possible are is another thing, as AoS is overly vague at times. Say I want to have Phoenixes that can shape shift and mingle with aelves, can I do this or don't ? I can write stories for my own enjoyment but I find it that there's a line where I'm just borrowing elements from AoS.

On the AoS setting over WHFB. I prefer AoS as it's fantasy drama going ball against the wall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Say I want to have Phoenixes that can shape shift and mingle with aelves, can I do this or don't ?

There is and can be nothing from stopping you, it depends only on how interesting and good you write  your ideas down. Just try to insert them into the setting nicely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The more recent novels (the ones set ~100 years after the Realmgate Wars) have all been substantially more meaty in world building.

For me, these have been:

City of Secrets

Spear of Shadows

Auction of Blood

Overlords of the Iron Dragon

Hammerhal by Josh Reynolds (both the Short story in the beginning of the Hammerhal game and the Short Story in the new combined novel)

While happening around the Realmgate war timeframe the Sylvaneth novel was a nice read.  Pestilins was also an interesting world building piece, as there more info on the moving cities and their interaction with the rest of the world. Fireslayers was a hard read for me personally (I’m not sure I actually finished it ...)

The Chaos focused short stories were interesting, though not particularly good to get a solid feel of the new realms.

The quick reads for Malign Portents have been nice tone pieces.

The world is beginning to fit into a better set of views than what came out in the original Stormcast Eternal focused novels. If you can get past Book 4 in the Realmgate Wars there is definite improvement. Early on there is loads of “Only the faithful” ... and remembering one book from another is a challenge .. they all seem to meld together.

If you want to find out about the world outside of the SCE ... all the books I’ve suggested are great options. B|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...