The future of compendium warscrolls

[Jamie Ferguson]

So, SCGT has opted not to allow compendium warscrolls for the biggest event in the world. Whatever your view, that decision is likely to have a trickle down effect into mainstream matched play events. Especially in light of the perception that the organisers have a bit more knowledge regarding the future direction of AoS having been involved in Generals Handbook development. 

I've noticed a number of reactions, for and against. Many are knee ****** and a bit silly but there are a couple of camps. 

1. Happy to see the end of compendium. 

These players feel it's time to move the game on, don't feel compendium fits the new background and are concerned about the game balance of certain powerful builds (Tomb kings for example)

2. Sad to see what looks like the beginning of the end of matched play compendium. 

Sure there are some who saw compendium as a resource of powerful options but surely the majority here are folks who want to continue to run reasonably balanced dwarf, Brets, Empire, elves of any variety and many others. 

 

My own view (someone who has not played compendium armies in over a year in favour of new stuff but who owns a number of them and would have liked to have taken some to events) is...

Why on earth are we reducing the variety of armies in the game? If people are bothered by tomb kings, comp them, surely that's better than at a gesture, removing many armies from the game. Do the views of people who dislike seeing Bret armies in the new style AoS in an occasional event trump the views of those who have been building and painting a collection for many years? 

Competitive AoS is gathering pace in many places but not everywhere. If events begin to disallow compendium armies then it makes it harder for players to return to the game. I know each event can have its own comp but history teaches us that where the big podcasts go, the rest follow. 

While compendium armies have points and rules freely accessible to everyone, surely the best and most inclusive option is to allow them. If something is seen as too powerful, do something about it, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. 

TLDR: I'd really like to hear people's thoughts as to why it's a good idea to ban compendium armies going forwards, I'm genuinely confused as to why such a move has more merit than just leaving them alone. 

[Thornshield]

I hope the three SCGT organisers can explain their choice to remove compendium, as it's too much of a knee-****** reaction to take sides at the moment.

Possible options that spring to mind;

1) Hint to a decision made by GW, which I can only guess as being a commercial move to only support models in production.

For: Future-proof for GHB2 and encourages sales of current lines for GW

Against: Complete removal of Compendium in Matched Play, and has knock-on impacts on Narrative play where points are used.

2) To align the matched play scene with armies that are more 'suited' to the current story/feel of the setting.

For: Strengthens the look/feel of the setting. Personally feel some of the Compendium units are still very Old World and could use a revamp.

Against: Tomb Kings have been hinted at in the books & there are modelling opportunities for old ranges.

3) For balance and a shifting meta, where armies get phased out in the future with new ranges replacing them. For example, Khorne Bloodbound, Nurgle Rotbringers, Disciples of Tzeentch and Hosts of Slaanesh when fully fleshed out could render the Slaves to Darkness range obsolete.

For: Gives a tighter selection of armies to balance & could keep the game fresh

Against: Fewer choices could result in a stale meta, both in terms of army lists and actual physical armies.

 

Personally I think 2) isn't the driver of the change, but if it is a factor, I'd also argue that Tamurkhan and Legion of Azgorh compendiums are disallowed, being historic armies in the history of the Old World (they weren't even present during the End Times!). Monstrous Arcanum remains safe, as monsters (and Mournguls) remain ever-present in the Mortal Realms.

Would be interested to see how Forge World keeps up with this if 1) and 3) are the main deciders, especially if they don't directly work with GW when setting points.

[Jamie Ferguson]

Thank you for the well considered response. 

I can see potential truth in each of your points but the gist of them would surely be just as well served by a gradual phase out of compendium by replacing rules. This is already happening with the keywords changing in battalions and a gradual evolution towards a new model. This avoids people being told they can't use their collections in matched (or potentially in narrative) play. 

As to Forgeworld, if they're stopping compendium but allowing forgeworld scrolls for 'old world' armies then it just shows how arbitrary I fear the decision is. I can't think of a single reason to allow one and not the other. 

[Riavan]

I'm fairly new to the game, but I just figured a lot of things were imbalanced ATM because the game is really in its first edition. I just figured whenever the second generals book came out there would be a balancing of the more op and weaker units via points or stat changes.

[Jamie Ferguson]

That'd be very sensible I'd have thought. Sadly, that does not seem to be the way things are panning out right now. 

 

[Scottyjock]

Seems to me it's a GW move due to lack of availability of Compendium armies commercially (TK,  Brets). And SCGT (and others) are now more closely aligned with GW, be it as a proving ground or whatever. Probably things going both ways between playtesters and GW. 

Sure there are new armies to buy, and older Compendium maybe don't "fit", but High Aelves reappeared in Spire of Dawn and I bet everyone thought plastic spearman were dead in the water. 

Pts adjustment would be most sensible and inclusive for all. I hope other independent TOs take a view to allow as they see fit. 

[Arkiham]

Items which are no longer stocked I personally, don't think should be allowed in, it's basically giving who ever gets them an advantage if the rules are good, unless you're willing to pay outrageous prices off ebay for the model you aren't going to get it. 

From a business point of view it's bad also, having to continue to support something you're no longer making any profits from, 

the brets died in 8th, as did many other things. It's really time to move on now.

[Nacnudllah]

I'm guessing that when GHB2 comes out next summer, it will not have the compendium stuff in it.  We have points totals to work with for them, we have warscrolls, and I doubt that GW wants to spend a lot of time supporting models they don't sell anymore.  I love that people can keep playing with their old units, but i don't imagine that will continue to be supported in matched play for much longer.

[CoffeeGrunt]

23 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Items which are no longer stocked I personally, don't think should be allowed in, it's basically giving who ever gets them an advantage if the rules are good, unless you're willing to pay outrageous prices off ebay for the model you aren't going to get it. 

Unless you convert a counts-as model for it?

[Jamie Ferguson]

20 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Items which are no longer stocked I personally, don't think should be allowed in, it's basically giving who ever gets them an advantage if the rules are good, unless you're willing to pay outrageous prices off ebay for the model you aren't going to get it. 

From a business point of view it's bad also, having to continue to support something you're no longer making any profits from, 

the brets died in 8th, as did many other things. It's really time to move on now.

From a business standpoint I see where you're coming from. But SCGT is not supposed to be related to business decisions. If GW did it first, fair enough. 

Yes, Brets died in 8th. Time to move on, why? Because you said so? 

Whats the harm in allowing people who have them to continue playing matched play with models they love?

If we truly go down that 'time to move on' road then we have a lot of models currently that don't fit, both GW and forgeworld, do we ban them all? Do free peoples really fit in? Who is it up to what fits these days?

iI it's rules abuses that worry you, surely comping the worst offenders would be fairer and affect far less people in a negative way. And with things like Sayl the faithless being used in every other chaos army, we can hardly lay the blame for imbalance solely at the feet of the compendium. 

 

[Strength_Hammer]

I look forward to hearing a reasoning for the exclusion from the SCGT organizers.  That said I am in favor of moving on, as it was put, for a few reasons.

1) The compendium scrolls are there to help people transition and keep us from having useless toys.  I find it similar to the square vs. round base issue.  GW still doesn't have a stance, but the (majority of the) community has moved to rounds over the past year and I feel the community will move away from Compendium as well.  All it needs is a firm stance, but a major event which we now have.

2) They helped GW transition.  Take a look at the release structure we had for AoS this past year?  We could hardly keep up and it was fantastic!  There is a plethora of new and redone armies for us all to (bandwagon) jump on.

3) Specifically looking at TK and Brets.  If there is any chance of them being reborn in some fashion with new models or new fluff the old stuff needs to be in the review mirror.  I would love a new stylized version of both armies, but we need to let go of what they were.

4) The community is growing, very rapidly.  These new players might have zero idea of what is going on and AoS is their first game and we are put onto a more even starting field as far as what we can all use to compete.

5)  The compendium scrolls contained ever named character under the sun and some survived The End Times and others not so much sadly, but hopefully there will be new models for these characters much in the way of Achaon and Alarielle without needing to add the words "Only one version of "Character Name" allowed in your army".

 

While I know there are players and hobbyists with the opposite view I feel the move away from compendium needs to happen and I am willing to embrace it.

[Jamie Ferguson]

I'm all for the transition and have only used Sylvaneth and stormcast, both on round bases for the last year. 

The scene is growing rapidly in many places but we're still struggling a bit up in Scotland where there was a very vibrant scene in 8th. We're hoping to have our first 40+ player tournament soon and it's taken time and effort. In 8th, we'd get that every other month. We're clearly still in a much earlier transition phase and sadly this trend won't help matters. 

As I said, I'm all for the transition despite having a fair number of older armies. My question is, who is negatively affected by allowing compendium armies and who is negatively affected by banning them? Surely a grown up and inclusive response would be to comp the worst bits (necropolis knights for example) and just allow the rest to fade naturally out of circulation. 

New players still have access to all the rules on the app and anyone with a Bret army (for example) is likely to be a die hard hobbyist and equally unlikely to be challenging anyone for a trophy. Do we need to stamp those players out?

 

[stuntymike]

I'm 100% with Jamie on this one, I don't understand why restricting choice and variety can be seen as a good thing. Nor do I understand who benefits by preventing people from playing with their toys, which they've spent years lovingly assembling and painting. 

Sensible and inclusive comp is a much better path in my opinion. Of course as with any tournament the TOs of SCGT can rule as they see fit but it's the knock on effect of this ruling that troubles me. 

 

[Thornshield]

7 minutes ago, Jamie Ferguson said:

I'm all for the transition and have only used Sylvaneth and stormcast, both on round bases for the last year. 

The scene is growing rapidly in many places but we're still struggling a bit up in Scotland where there was a very vibrant scene in 8th. We're hoping to have our first 40+ player tournament soon and it's taken time and effort. In 8th, we'd get that every other month. We're clearly still in a much earlier transition phase and sadly this trend won't help matters. 

As I said, I'm all for the transition despite having a fair number of older armies. My question is, who is negatively affected by allowing compendium armies and who is negatively affected by banning them? Surely a grown up and inclusive response would be to comp the worst bits (necropolis knights for example) and just allow the rest to fade naturally out of circulation. 

New players still have access to all the rules on the app and anyone with a Bret army (for example) is likely to be a die hard hobbyist and equally unlikely to be challenging anyone for a trophy. Do we need to stamp those players out?

 

The scene down South is already mature (a feat given it's only been a year) so I can see why it wouldn't negatively affect SCGT. But perhaps the Scottish scene needs to hold on to compendium till it catches up?

However, we've had over a year with compendium for players with those armies to transition, I don't think it's going to attract owners of TK/Brets if they aren't already playing, and will it really drive them away? Most AoS players are also deep into the hobby so probably have a second army.

Regarding comp, the AoS scene has seen very little hard comp, maybe organisers don't want to return to those systems, especially when the possible combinations within Grand Alliances can be tricky to capture. But that's a different discussion altogether I suppose.

Just my 2p though, coming from a player who only really played with Brets for the entire of 8th. Still struggling to build up my AoS army as I didn't want to rebase the Brets. As I fit your example, I don't want people like myself being stamped out, but as a hobbyist, I think the spirit of Bretonnia died gloriously in the End Times and the Prayer to the (False) Lady is just not the same in the AoS scrolls.

Narratively, they'd likely have been battered by Chaos too much to be able to return to their grandiose as a full army & would, in my personal opinion, be better suited as mercenary knights (not sure if there are suitable warscrolls) or...Flesh Eater Courts

 

[Arkiham]

8 minutes ago, Thornshield said:

 I think the spirit of Bretonnia died gloriously in the End Times and the Prayer to the (False) Lady is just not the same in the AoS scrolls.

 

The spite in that "false" is amazing lol.

 

[Jamie Ferguson]

I've the feeling I'm on the minority on this one, or at least the majority is apathetic which is fair enough. 

Maybe Scotland needs to allow the compendium to run a bit farther as you say but historically it is led by active players who follow the English scene. There's a fair bit of overlap. 

I still fail to see how the English scene benefits from excluding armies. It seems very arbitrary  to me. I guess that's the world we live in these days. 

so, do you think it'll be consistent with Forgeworld being excluded also?

[Thomas Lyons]

If the concern is broken combos and disproportionately powerful units in the game, there are a number of units (Sayl, Stonehorns, etc.), battalions (Kunnin' Rukk, etc.), and combos that should be looked at before anything in the compendium scrolls.  

If the concern is unavailable models, there are a number of other models (Forgeworld, I'm looking at you) that are still being allowed to play and yet are currently not available to purchase (Curs'd Ettin, both Incarnate Elementals, Preyton, Rogue Idol, Chaos Warmammoth, etc.).  The irony here is that there are now currently purchasable models from Forgeworld like the Thane with Battlestandard that are now banned because their war scrolls sit in the Compendium Scrolls.

If the concern is that compendium armies don't fit in the lore, then what about armies where there is consistency of keywords like the Dispossessed, Free Peoples, and the Wanderers.  Those are currently supported factions.  Those armies DO exist.  Similarly, for those that claim that the Tomb Kings don't currently have a place in the lore, then you aren't actually familiar with the lore you are trying to defend.  Observe: 


 

The driving force behind this type of decision seems to be "I want to play with my toys but I just don't want you to play with yours (because they are too expensive, or hard to get, or I think they are too powerful)".  Such attitudes are both toxic and self serving.  It does nothing but fragments communities and creates barriers of entry for potential participants in the hobby.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I think we should've expected this to happen, GW been on the no model, no rules line since a certain court case and we were told at the time the compendium stuff wasn't going to be be updated. 

As a preference I don't like seeing the WFB named characters in an AoS setting, I said goodbye to them in the End Times.  

We've done denial, anger and all the other stages of grief it's time for acceptance. 

Edit: although I suspect some TOs will be allowing The Endless Deserts 

[Tasman]

I guess that those who organize events are free to put whatever constraints on entries they feel will make them ore appealing to the "new" player.... by that I mean the person who hasn't been collecting **** for 20 + yrs (me) and therefore focusing attention on what's new and pretty. Gets the wallets out.

If I'm running an event at the local shop, amongst our usual crowd, it's still anything goes as far as what scrolls you want in your army.

The rule has always been to have fun. If I encounter someone who I don't have fun playing, for whatever reason, I can always find another game. That's not always true in the large sanctioned tournaments where people play as if their lives depend on it. I avoid these like a visit to the proctologist.

[Thomas Lyons]

1 hour ago, Jamie Ferguson said:

so, do you think it'll be consistent with Forgeworld being excluded also?

No, because certain Forgeworld models and armies likely have strong representation amongst the community making these decisions.  The same cannot likely be said of Tomb Kings, for example.  

55 minutes ago, Tasman said:

The rule has always been to have fun. If I encounter someone who I don't have fun playing, for whatever reason, I can always find another game. That's not always true in the large sanctioned tournaments where people play as if their lives depend on it. I avoid these like a visit to the proctologist.

The problem is that, if the issue is "fun", there are lots of legal forces that aren't fun to play against.  There is nothing in the compendium scrolls that can't be similarly found in the currently legal warscrolls

[Tasman]

^^Truth. My point is that people who want to use compendium scrolls in a casual setting, with agreement of opponents, of course, should be allowed to play with what they've collected.

There is also another way: proxy them in and play "counts as". I've been using some of my dark elves in my slaanesh armies. Calling them Slaanesh cultists and using the appropriate war scroll i.e. daemonettes for witch elves. Lets me still use what I've collected and adds a little fluff. So far, no one has complained.

[Tasman]

1 hour ago, Arkiham said:

The spite in that "false" is amazing lol.

 

Lol.... They are ALL blind pawns to a false god-Sigmar the weak.

 

[Kramer]

Oke since you asked my two cents.

I assume the biggest reason to disallow compendium at a tournament is fear for balancing issues. Which is fair if they are an independent organizer. Their party their rules. (basically says so in the AoS rules, play how it's the most fun for you  )

Second I don't think GW will be investing time in compendium. It's there to show us old players they still have some love for the old models and facilitating us in playing our old armies. They, as does any company, have limited amount of resources to invest so i'm assuming they will invest in the new shiny toys because they make the most money. Nothing wrong with that. That being said when they drop GHB2 I expect them not to include the compendium pages but mention them and say: Of course you can still use them but make sure you check with you opponent. As long as you all have fun. 

Lastly: by dropping compendium from matched play they have less things to balance. Less abilities that could suddenly could create crazy combinations with the compendium rules. Matched play will never be balanced, points will never be perfectly fair but trying to get there takes time and effort. Dropping ranges that are not so popular... well it helps even if we don't like it. 

[PJetski]

If you want to foster a competitive game then you should not cut the warscroll compendiums. Many factions are stronger in their compendiums because of unified keyword structure - armies like High Elves, Empire, Dark Elves, Dwarves, etc. are all more powerful when played with compendium rules.

The power creep of battalions and allegiance abilities will slowly phase compendium armies way, so let it happen naturally rather than forcing a decision that will upset people.

From a financial standpoint it would also be a bad move. One of the big draws with AOS is that you can use any of your old WHFB models. Removing that option in competitive play just as the GHB gave the game new legs to stand on would be a huge mistake.

[Thornshield]

@Tasman That's the thing, the Compendium scrolls may only be removed for Matched play. Under Open and Narrative play, you're free to include them, and equally change the rules to make it your game or forge a narrative. It's a shame that we live in an age where the Internet opinion is often skewed to the competitive side and we just need to ensure it doesn't become the end-all.

P.S. I don't think most players at tournaments are WAAC though, the scene is full of great people who have a good time and don't take it too seriously. Competitive at times yes, but it is a game/tournament after all.

@Arkiham Lol, I'm not sure if I came across bitter, but just to be clear, I liked the fact that the Lady was always said to be an Elf. My Brets were forest loving hippies worshipping Taal (after the Lady) and idolising the Green Knight, with Athel Loren as their main allies.

Anyway, we're having a discussion on this topic amongst the Narrative Event Organisers and I think the consensus is we would be generally open to Compendium for our events, especially if there's a Narrative plotline/reason that suits. Obviously we may choose to restrict stuff if the story calls for it.

We would like to promote creativity and flexibility in the game, where it's not strictly to the letter. Think this is a mindset more common in more senior gamers, I recall Jervis saying things along those lines in his interview with @Dan Heelan. Not saying it's the only way to play, but one we encourage people to try.