Multiple Standard Bearers/Musicians

[Ollie Grimwood]

Rules wise you can take as many as you like. However I was wondering how people were viewing this on a more "social contract" sort of way.  

Some units have a choice of banners so there is a direct game advantage is taking all the available choices for a unit beyond added durability multiples will give you. 

Having two banners would look cool in a regimental & Queens colour sort of way and a full regimental band might be a nice modelling project. 

This would only look good in a large unit though. So what sort of ratios would people be happy with? Are you a one banner one drum hobbyist? I guess for me it's more a case of "does it look right?" And there are ways of doing it well in a modelled and themed manner and just sticking flags on models in an unthemactic way. 

[TerrorPenguin]

I would be happy with 1 per minimum unit size

Personally I would probably play one per fifteen / twenty - two in a unit of 40

[swiftmus]

I just take one of each option (so if there are 2 different banner choices I will take a musician and one of each banner) as generally the command models often lack the normal weaponry so I prefer to have as many 'normal guys' as possible.

I also think it's good to try and model the different banners differently to help identify them. For example my unit of 6 Ogors has the normal banner model as the Tribal Flag (or whatever it was called) and another model has a goblin standard bearer sitting on his shoulder (this also shows the lookout grot), with a converted banner top for the Beast Skull.

[Squirrelmaster]

If you're playing against me, I don't really mind what you take, so long as you don't try to claim a single model is 2 command models in one.

Heck, I'm happy to give you the benefits of banners even if you didn't actually model them, so long as there's enough models left in the unit for you to have them. I don't want my opponent to be penalised for not modelling his 60-strong infantry unit as 30 banner-bearers, 29 musicians and a champion. Just make sure it's clear which model is the champion (since you can only have one and his position in the unit kinda matters), and once you get down to not having enough models left, make sure you declare which command benefits you want to keep.

In terms of how far I'd go with my own models — I'll generally include 1 of each banner, since I'm using Death i'll maybe include 2 banners in larger units (20+ models), or multi-wound units (chariots, etc.). I find that there's some very direct benefits to doing so. In the case of multi-wound units I can be reduced to the last model, take wounds on the standard bearer, then bring a second banner back (the wound allocation rules mean that once a multi-wound banner-bearer has been wounded, it has to be the next casualty removed, even if you've brought back a bunch of models in the meantime). In the case of larger (20+) units, especially combat units (so for Death, anything that isn't archers), I'm more likely to stretch the unit out wide, conga-line, and/or charge multiple enemies at once. Having freedom to remove casualties from either end of the line without losing the banner can make a big difference.

Generally, I don't think the strategic advantage of having more than 2 of the same banner outweighs the æsthetic limitations. If I ever did model a unit with more than 2 of the same banner, it would probably be more of a sardonic commentary aimed at GW than something I'd actually want to use in a game.

[Kramer]

Purely aesthetically i would go 1 per 10/15. For me thats more important than the gaming adantages. That being said if we were playing and you asked me to switch  you banner with a rank and file because with these rules everybody could carry the banner that would probably be fine. 

[Arkiham]

One per unit size, so if you can take 10 for 100, 1 2 for 200, but there's nothing stopping from taking 20, but you'd need to model up for 20, and you'd get some dirty looks 

[tolstedt]

2 hours ago, swiftmus said:

generally the command models often lack the normal weaponry so I prefer to have as many 'normal guys' as possible.

For aesthetic reasons?  Gameplay wise command models count as having the same load out as the rest of the unit.

[PJetski]

In friendly games I will only use one standard bearer, but in a tournament you better believe that every single one of my skeletons "counts as" an icon bearer

[Arkiham]

4 minutes ago, PJetski said:

In friendly games I will only use one standard bearer, but in a tournament you better believe that every single one of my skeletons "counts as" an icon bearer

Problem is then you need to model for that. 

I doubt you'll be given it 

[AGPO]

I just allow my opponent to take off a rank and file instead of a standard bearer. It makes sense to me that someone would pick up the flag if the holder was cut down. Modelling wise having multiple command figures makes sense if you ever want to field that horde unit as smaller groups. I think WYSIWYG is perfectly reasonable if someone tried to manipualte the command rules for cheese purposes though. 

[swiftmus]

1 hour ago, tolstedt said:

For aesthetic reasons?  Gameplay wise command models count as having the same load out as the rest of the unit.

Yeah aesthetic reasons.

[Ollie Grimwood]

1 hour ago, AGPO said:

I just allow my opponent to take off a rank and file instead of a standard bearer. It makes sense to me that someone would pick up the flag if the holder was cut down. Modelling wise having multiple command figures makes sense if you ever want to field that horde unit as smaller groups. I think WYSIWYG is perfectly reasonable if someone tried to manipualte the command rules for cheese purposes though. 

I'd say that's entirely fair. It hadn't passed my mind that someone would claim a ordinary rank and file model as a standard bearer or musician though. It shouldn't be an issue that comes up very often though as there aren't many attacks that target specific models within a unit. 

[Marc Wilson]

If someone models and paints multiple same effect banners in a single unit then yeah they can play that way against me unless a TO says otherwise. But really that person would be trying WAY too hard, and would be the recipient of some truly pitying looks.

[Sleboda]

6 hours ago, PJetski said:

In friendly games I will only use one standard bearer, but in a tournament you better believe that every single one of my skeletons "counts as" an icon bearer

Ha!  And people wonder why "counts as" is one of my Top 10 Sins of Wargaming. All the benefit, none of the effort.

[Squirrelmaster]

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

Ha!  And people wonder why "counts as" is one of my Top 10 Sins of Wargaming. All the benefit, none of the effort.

Also none of the awful æsthetic. I'd rather play against a good-looking counts-as army than an army that looks horrible because it provides an in-game advantage.

[mmimzie]

My zombies have a banner every 10 because of merging and what not. You can have as many banners as you please, but they simply msut be modeled as such.

Some units specifically state how you take your banners. Look at plague monks who may only take one banner or the other. 

if your rules say you may mix and match i dont care as long as it is super clear which is which.

[rokapoke]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

Some units specifically state how you take your banners. Look at plague monks who may only take one banner or the other. 

The Plague Monks scroll just indicates that each banner must be one or the other -- you can still have as many in the unit as you like. 

[mmimzie]

9 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

The Plague Monks scroll just indicates that each banner must be one or the other -- you can still have as many in the unit as you like. 

fair enough

[Ollie Grimwood]

Has anyone played against a unit that is made up of nothing but standard bearers though? 

[Double Misfire]

It's my ambition to paint up every dwarf musician model in GW history and legally run a marching band under AoS rules.

[Squirrelmaster]

I'm half-tempted to make a set of little paper flags which I can slip onto all the spears in my skeletons unit, just in case.

[Ollie Grimwood]

52 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

It's my ambition to paint up every dwarf musician model in GW history and legally run a marching band under AoS rules.

That would just be awesome though 

[Double Misfire]

1 hour ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

That would just be awesome though 

Halfway tempted to actually to go through with it, I do have enough metal musician models. Waiting to see how the warscrolls in the Steamhead look before I decide to commit to them though.

Has anyone had any interesting experiences with unit champions carrying a flag or instrument? I double my old 8th ed BSB up as a unit champion with a banner whenever I need to run several dwarf warrior units.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I don't really see the benefits of doing so. At least, as a Death player, you allocate wonds to models of your choosing 99% of the time, so the Banner Bearer is simply the last model to die, always. As far as Banners, etc in general, I just consider them to be innate abilities of the unit rather than a bonus, at least until I kill the Banners, which as previously mentioned die last and the unit dies with them, so...

[Squirrelmaster]

@CoffeeGrunt Two reasons:

1. If I have a unit of 40 skeletons, there's a good chance I'll be stretching them out 30 models wide, allowing me to screen my archers and liche, and potentially engage multiple enemy wizards at once. If I have two banners at opposite ends of the unit, I can remove casualties from whichever end I like without breaking coherency or losing the banner benefit. If I break coherency then I may end up unable to pile-in, or even move, for the rest of the game. With only one banner, I'd be more limited in my choice of casualty removal, which can have a big impact on units of this size.

2. Say I have 3 chariots. I lose 2, then they take another wound. Wounds are allocated to models, not units, so now the icon bearer is wounded. Next turn I bring one chariot back, maybe both if I have a herald or I get a double turn. The icon bearer is still wounded, which means by RAW the next time I remove a casualty from that unit, it has to be the icon bearer. With two icon bearers it's not a problem — even if all I have left is one icon bearer on 1 wound, I can make sure that the next model I bring back is the other icon bearer.