Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[ledha]

5 hours ago, Killax said:

Bloodsecrator certainly changed on many levels, only for the better though, along with Sayl, Skyfires and a bunch of other units that where indeed extremely good and not only a single mandatory pick but almost certain a multiple mandatory pick if you had that option.

I believe that the Bloodsecrator is indeed designed this way with Bloodletters in mind also. In addition Bloodletters offcourse also got more expensive as minimum unit, which is another reason to run 30 or none at all (basically). The old wording allready had us covered in terms of mirror matched though... As per old variant of the Warscroll:

However there are also some things I don't get yet.
1. I would like to know why Bloodcrushers are now more expensive as Skullcrushers and worse in practice on all fronts.
2. I would like to know why Skullreapers went up to 180 as opposed for example 160. As they are now in direct competition with Wrathmongers and really the latter wins out due to utility.
3. I would like to know why the Aspiring Deathbringer with Goreaxe and Skullhammer went up 100. It might be somehwat better as the regular variant but not so much? If at all?

Please don't see the above three questions as complaints, as I do fully like this set up with viable Bloodthirsters more as the previous one where Bloodthirster use was a whole lot more sketchy. It's just that I don't understand certain very particular changes all to well.

In that same vein I do believe that the design team indeed saw that Valkia was a very good Hero hunter and that ability likely wasn't planned for BoK as such I understand that increase and on the other side Skarr is very much claiming skulls for Khorne with his ability so in that narrative sence I also very much agree with his cost decrease.
 

Let's be honest, the skullreapers were way too strong for 140 pts, with more résilience/mobility than ironjaw brutes or stormcast paladin who are around 180-220 pts ( try to find à unit with less than 10 pts per wound with a 4+ save... )

They punched way above their size ( i Saw mine doing incredible damage on every game ) and are one of thé best unit to destroy hordes. In a méta who help hordes, keeping skullreapers at 140 would have been incredibly stupid. At 180, in a édition which make their favorite target much more proéminent, They have a very nice spot now

[Killax]

6 hours ago, misthv said:

I now officially love wrathmongers, effectively countered a Lord-Celestant on Dracoth and two Concussors yesterday. Because of this, and because I love BT model I made some changes to my Bloodband Warband. I now made the MLoK general to make use of the charge ability early game. Threat saturation is kind of nasty in this list. Haven't really made up my mind re what BT to use, or what Artifact (for now I protect the secrator, but I could easily give the BT an Artifact/Power...). 

Wrathmongers are love, Wrathmongers are live! I also think that the prime reason as to why I believe they went up in effective tier is because the meta actively rewards Monster Generals very well indeed. This indeed includes a Lord-Celestant on Draco but also our Bloodthirster and the Magmalizard from the Fireslayers and the Vampire Zombielord etc. Basically there is so much going on now that makes Wrathmongers super legit  

I think that for the MLoK you can't go wrong with Mark of the Destroyer. Wether the Fleshhound or not obtains additional attacks is rather unknown but also irrelevant as 8 Axe O Khorne attacks are another way to punish Monsters hard. In terms of Command Traits a lot is possible... Can't really comment on that without the complete new army build  

2 hours ago, ledha said:

Let's be honest, the skullreapers were way too strong for 140 pts, with more résilience/mobility than ironjaw brutes or stormcast paladin who are around 180-220 pts ( try to find à unit with less than 10 pts per wound with a 4+ save... )

They punched way above their size ( i Saw mine doing incredible damage on every game ) and are one of thé best unit to destroy hordes. In a méta who help hordes, keeping skullreapers at 140 would have been incredibly stupid. At 180, in a édition which make their favorite target much more proéminent, They have a very nice spot now

In this context with this new GH2017 I don't think Skullreapers where too strong. Especially now we see discounts being thrown around everywhere. For example, I can't say that 10 Skullreapers have the same kind of output as 30 Bloodletters despite being more expensive at the 140 point level also.
The way I see it they are the typical 160 point unit. At 180 we see Wrathmongers and Blightkings who are much more adapt in destroying specific pieces extremely well. Better as say just Skullreapers can. 

As before though they won't really be missed and I agree with you that 180 points is workable. However it is workable because of discounts found elsewhere. The issue for me is that workable won't do in many editions/games if there are better alternatives comming in on compairable costs and this is the case now. 

All in all though we recieved more power to our allready powerful units and that's only a big plus. In the tier totem Khorne certainly went up in competitiveness because there is no "go Chaos go Sayl" thing going on anymore. 

Cheers,

[ledha]

Yeah, bloodletter hit harder, but skullreapers have the big plus of being very solid and being less buff dependant when they have killed several ennemies. After the first combat phase, you can left them alone doing their job and using prayers/command abilities on something else.

The last time i used skullreapers, they destroyed 30 plaguebearer, then a unit of blightking, then a lord of plague. With daemonblade and a few buff (bloodsecrator+aspiring deathbringer and lord of war), they just straight-up destroy everything.  In the 20 games i used them, they only failed me one time... when the 15 of them where one shot by a wanderer army

[Xasz]

The potential self-buffs of Skullreapers rarely come into play when it actually still matters. 

Skullreapers were definitely too cheap at 140 but we are not short of options.

I don't see myself fielding them anytime soon.

[Darksteve]

Hearing you guys talk so much about Wrathmongers I have considered adding them to my list. Below are the current three variations I was considering putting together for tournament play. Any feedback on which one you guys think is strongest would be very much appreciated. 

BloodletterPilgrims.pdf

WrathPilgrims.pdf

BloodWarriorPilgrims.pdf

[Praecautus]

For various and somewhat fluffy reasons I am building a 2k Blades of Khorne mortal list, w no deamons (I have mixed list in mind). I know it won't be overly competitive and I am mainly building for fun but also don't want to get wiped quickly.

Brief background, this is a wandering band of nomads who have been pushed around by everyone leading them to worship khorne as a need to survive. They have daemon allies who come to their aid (as a seperatr list). They have now become a powerful group of marauders who are spreading their religion and the 'protection' of Khorne across the realms.

I have the following list which comes to 1720 and unsure what mortal units to add/change to take this to 2k.

Mighty Lord of Khorne

Bloodsecrator

Bkoodstoker

Valkia

Slaughter priest

Slaughter priest

Blood reavers (20)

Blood warriors (10)

Blood warriors (10)

Mighty skullcrushers (3)

Khorgorath (1)

Gorebeast chariot (1) (STD allies)

 

 Gorepilgrims

 

So what should I add or change? The aim is fun and hold their own

I definitely want 5 wrathmongers but after that I still have 200 pointsand and wondering about a war shrine or maybe 2 more gore chariots, or expand the reavers. Or even something else?

In addition, I have the following

Exalted deathbringer 

Skarr Blood wrath

Lord on Juggernaught - but would lose a skullcrusher

 

[Xasz]

2 hours ago, Darksteve said:

Hearing you guys talk so much about Wrathmongers I have considered adding them to my list. Below are the current three variations I was considering putting together for tournament play. Any feedback on which one you guys think is strongest would be very much appreciated. 

BloodletterPilgrims.pdf

WrathPilgrims.pdf

BloodWarriorPilgrims.pdf

I'm not keen on downloading PDFs, use spoilers if you want to keep your post short.

Other than that, the lists are pretty much the same and you'll probably need plain old experience to figure out what fits your personal playstyle the best.

[RuneBrush]

20 hours ago, Killax said:

Bloodsecrator certainly changed on many levels, only for the better though, along with Sayl, Skyfires and a bunch of other units that where indeed extremely good and not only a single mandatory pick but almost certain a multiple mandatory pick if you had that option.

I believe that the Bloodsecrator is indeed designed this way with Bloodletters in mind also. In addition Bloodletters offcourse also got more expensive as minimum unit, which is another reason to run 30 or none at all (basically). The old wording allready had us covered in terms of mirror matched though... As per old variant of the Warscroll:

However there are also some things I don't get yet.
1. I would like to know why Bloodcrushers are now more expensive as Skullcrushers and worse in practice on all fronts.
2. I would like to know why Skullreapers went up to 180 as opposed for example 160. As they are now in direct competition with Wrathmongers and really the latter wins out due to utility.
3. I would like to know why the Aspiring Deathbringer with Goreaxe and Skullhammer went up 100. It might be somehwat better as the regular variant but not so much? If at all?

Please don't see the above three questions as complaints, as I do fully like this set up with viable Bloodthirsters more as the previous one where Bloodthirster use was a whole lot more sketchy. It's just that I don't understand certain very particular changes all to well.

In that same vein I do believe that the design team indeed saw that Valkia was a very good Hero hunter and that ability likely wasn't planned for BoK as such I understand that increase and on the other side Skarr is very much claiming skulls for Khorne with his ability so in that narrative sence I also very much agree with his cost decrease.

1. Not a clue!  I know I've been spouting about Skullcrushers being too pricey for a while and happy at the new points but not sure why Bloodcrushers have stayed where they were.

2. My theory on this is that Skullreapers munch through horde armies quite comfortably.  I was running two units at Blackout and in most games they outperformed most things in my army (the exception was my Wrathmongers vs a Mawkrusha - but that's another story).  140 was too cheap but I'm not sure 160 would have been expensive enough, especially when buffed with a few prayers & banner

3. Not entirely sure on this one either, I'm guessing it's because he again is pretty decent against hordes - throw him into a horde, watch some flee and throw him in again!  Potential to do quite a bit of damage.

[Killax]

4 hours ago, Darksteve said:

Hearing you guys talk so much about Wrathmongers I have considered adding them to my list. Below are the current three variations I was considering putting together for tournament play. Any feedback on which one you guys think is strongest would be very much appreciated. 

BloodletterPilgrims.pdf

WrathPilgrims.pdf

BloodWarriorPilgrims.pdf

I like the first and second list the most. Bloodletters are easier to play for most of us, the Wrathmonger variant also is very powerful.

The third variant seems to have a good set up but also the type of set up where I would consider running another general. Big units of Blood Warriors and Bloodreavers can also work really well but they too like to have their support then, something a WoK BT doesn't give them. The more Bloodletter bombs to me the better the BT gets. 

Cheers,

[Louzi]

Do we know what list pano played at blackout? He did pretty well and I guess he wasnt using bloodletter bombs...

[Jaehaerys]

Anyone tried running mass reavers 3 blocks 40 in dark feast? Yea guess hero is easy to snipe but if you had bloodsecrator, wrathmongers, aspiring death bringer, could even have war shrine. So many buffed attacks.

Would give opponent a decent choice on who they target.

[RuneBrush]

4 hours ago, Louzi said:

Do we know what list pano played at blackout? He did pretty well and I guess he wasnt using bloodletter bombs...

He was running one based round Gore Pilgrims, included a unit of 3 Khorgoraths, load of blood warriors, small unit of bloodreavers, unit of skullreapers, mighty lord, blood stoker, couple of priests and a 'secrator.

[Praecautus]

4 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

He was running one based round Gore Pilgrims, included a unit of 3 Khorgoraths, load of blood warriors, small unit of bloodreavers, unit of skullreapers, mighty lord, blood stoker, couple of priests and a 'secrator.

Thanks, saw the thread elsewhere and will keep eye open for list. Can always use what you have here for inspiration.

[ledha]

5 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

He was running one based round Gore Pilgrims, included a unit of 3 Khorgoraths, load of blood warriors, small unit of bloodreavers, unit of skullreapers, mighty lord, blood stoker, couple of priests and a 'secrator.

i really like the sound of this list. Surprised to see a mortal list doing well 

[RuneBrush]

9 hours ago, Praecautus said:

Thanks, saw the thread elsewhere and will keep eye open for list. Can always use what you have here for inspiration.

8 hours ago, ledha said:

i really like the sound of this list. Surprised to see a mortal list doing well 

It was a pretty well rounded list, but also in the hands of a very experienced player which makes a massive difference.  The 3 Khorgoraths are a massive powerhouse unit, able to throw out and absorb a lot of damage and the extended banner ensures that they're putting out 6 attacks each

[Killax]

Absolutely, Khorgoraths completely regained their functionality with this cost and with their rules written in BoK. The difference between -1 Rend and non-Rend is allready large, the difference between cost 80 and 100 is large. Combine the two and the difference from their initial concept is massive.
So while a Slaughterbrute still is a really cool centerpiece and option I do think two Khorgoraths allready blow that choice out of the water and three to five Khorgoraths in general are a very potent unit. 

Offcourse we shouldn't forget that most of the power from Gore Pilgrims still comes forth out the Slaughterpriests however. While the whole set up is still expensive the Slaughterpriest in itself has gained more meta-room because it's benificial abilities continue to completely stack where this isn't the case for the Bloodsecrator for example.
Basically this new meta works in favour of the Slaughterpriest in several ways.
1. Blood Bind has become substantially better because moving around larger units of your opponent means you can really mess up his game plans. Re-positioning a full deathstar to an irrelevant unit can be game breaking. *I also believe this is why Valkia has become more expensive.
2. Cheaper bigger units make Bronzed Flesh easier to use well. 
3. Blood Sacrifice ingame now costs "less model points" to use on several units.
4. Killing Frenzy like Bronzed Flesh is easier to get effect out on big units. 

Overall Gore Pilgrims allready was very good and due to the abilities involved "it matters more" this meta because the use for multiple Bloodsecrators has decreased and the use for multiple big units has increased.

Cheers,

[Bowlzee]

Best thing about Gore Pilgrims is the re-roll for prayers. 4+ is pretty terrible without the reroll

[Xasz]

On 9/5/2017 at 6:49 PM, RuneBrush said:

He was running one based round Gore Pilgrims, included a unit of 3 Khorgoraths, load of blood warriors, small unit of bloodreavers, unit of skullreapers, mighty lord, blood stoker, couple of priests and a 'secrator.

I wonder how many and how big the Blood Warrior units were.

[RuneBrush]

9 hours ago, Xasz said:

I wonder how many and how big the Blood Warrior units were.

Just looked at a photo I took - two units of 15.  There were actually two units of skullreapers too

[ledha]

I would love to see the whole list !

[Xasz]

9 minutes ago, ledha said:

I would love to see the whole list !

From what was written, you can probably click an approximation together within 30 seconds...

Spoiler

Leaders
Mighty Lord Of Khorne (140)
Bloodstoker (80)
Bloodsecrator (120)
Slaughterpriest (100)
Slaughterpriest (100)

Battleline
15 x Blood Warriors (300)
15 x Blood Warriors (300)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)

Units
5 x Skullreapers (180)
5 x Skullreapers (180)
3 x Khorgoraths (240)

Battalions
Gore Pilgrims (180)

Total: 1990/2000
 

 

[RuneBrush]

2 hours ago, Xasz said:

From what was written, you can probably click an approximation together within 30 seconds...

  Hide contents

Leaders
Mighty Lord Of Khorne (140)
Bloodstoker (80)
Bloodsecrator (120)
Slaughterpriest (100)
Slaughterpriest (100)

Battleline
15 x Blood Warriors (300)
15 x Blood Warriors (300)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)

Units
5 x Skullreapers (180)
5 x Skullreapers (180)
3 x Khorgoraths (240)

Battalions
Gore Pilgrims (180)

Total: 1990/2000
 

 

Spot on from my recollection

[Killax]

Looks like fun too, good collectable bunch. Nice army to start out with relatively quickly. Which is something I really like about Blood Warriors in general. It´s also great that Khorgoraths can now semi operate at this level, makes them relevant shocktroops that don´t have a massive footprint. 

In general I believe the two roads of BoK are very clear and both very powerful anyway, where with Daemons the cool advantage is to play around with a Bloodthirster but the downside being you do have to process those 30 Bloodletter blocks and with Bloodbound you can have an army done relatively quickly with good survivability in the units but do have the Heroes that are all relatively easy to kill. Which is not a diss on Bloodbound at all, especially since this new rise in Monsters for the new meta the Mighty Lord of Khorne has become more relevant as ever and is a great scary general to Monsters with Mark of the Destroyer. 

Gore Pilgrims and Slaughterpriests can be really good and usually is when opponents did not invest heavily in ranged units. I feel they can be incredible when your opponent doesn´t focus on them because the longer they last the more their own damage tally adds up. This is also why Gore Pilgrims in a mirror match is extremely likely to win and versus Stormcasts or Tzeentch these Heroes tend to crumble much faster. While on the other side Bloodthirsters are almost a non-issue in the mirror match because something something 14 wounds with ´just´ a 4+ save doesn't even stress a Bloodletter unit. 

It's interesting to see the both parties, to date I believe both paths are really viable. I also read something this week revolving around Murderhost and objectives... So it's very likely both Murderhost and Gore Pilgrims still are the better if not the best Battalions to choose from with a Blades of Khorne army. I do think it's a pitty the Goretide is removed from that list in my mind, still love all the effects but I am simply not willing or able to pay 200+ points for those bonusses. It's so close to another Bloodletter bomb you've got to wonder if you can litterly steer an army minus a backbone. Which versus same level opponents is just very difficult to do. 

[Louzi]

I am still not convinced about gore pilgrims...you pay 180 points to get 2 rerolls...+ the priests get easily killed. A little bit shooting and you lose 380 points? No thx.

I rly like the Warshrine as khorne priest. Only 180 points for 12 wounds, totem keyword, 6 ++ and a nice prayer. I think rly underestimated.

[J.J]

The rerolls seem extremely valuable, factoring in that you also get a chance to dodge the initial roll of a 1 and some mortal wounds. The portal of skulls aura buff also seems worth it for the points, allowing you to leave your bloodsecrator in an even safer place.