Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[TheOtherJosh]

Split ... 

“Note that in matched play, you can add models to an existing unit of Blue Horrors even if doing so will increase it above its starting size, up until the unit contains 10 models – any excess Blue Horrors are then lost.”

Okay ... 2 units:

1 Unit of 10 Pink Horrors

1 Unit of 8 Blue Horrors (That initially started out at 20)

1 unit of 12 Blue Horrors (That also started at 20)

Unit of pinks is entirely wiped out, and the Unit of 8 Blue Horrors is within  the 6” range.

Are you adding 2 Blue Horrors to the squad to get 10? (And the ‘additional 18’ are lost?) Or you can add 12 to get to 20 (which was max purchased?)

If the only blue horror unit that is within 6” is the unit of 12 (That was purchased at 20) ... can they add any Blue Horrors?  Or because they are at “more than 10 they can’t refill?

I assume that the “even if doing so will increase it above its starting size” is in reference to a unit of Blues that was created when less than 5 pinks were forced to split?

[josh1989]

15 hours ago, The Cyclop Owl said:

I think it might be because your list is very heavy in wizards but light in close combat capability. How about switching the blue scribes and a unit of pink horrors for a unit of 20 tzaangors? You keep the same shell and will still be able to dish out ridiculous amount of mortal wounds through spells and skyfires (perhaps with slightly less consistency, but you already have wellspring of arcane might) and you can create your self a decent frontline and backline. 

Furthermore, the tzaangors can run and charge, and the bigger the unit the more they can attack.  Possibly this will help you securing the objectives more easily.
I am personally quite far off from having the army complete atm, but I am aiming for a similar list to yours with these modifications :

• -1 herald of Tzeentch
• -1 blue scribes
• -1 unit of pink horrors
• +1 unit of 30 tzaangors.

The other obvious solution would be to drop the skyfires, add the changeling and a load of blue horrors and brimstones and take the changehost battalion. Whatever they try to throw at you in close combat you can slow down, shift around and dramatically increase your mobility. I think the probem with your list is that it seats in between. It's super greedy in the spell + mortal wound but it's very slim when it comes to the battleline.

Thanks for the feedback and i think your right the wellspring is wasted if you have scribes i have found anyway. This is the newest list i am running, yea i never fail a spell i think i have failed 1 spell in the last 4 or so games other than ones that are unbound of course.  And the mortal wound output is insane... which is fun. its just taking objectives from my opponent i struggle with or standing up to tough units like stormcast. So yea i agree 20 tzaangor will round out the list in the melee area allowing me to take objectives and be more agressive in running on to them early. Here is the new list:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Command Trait : Magical Supremacy
- Lore of Change : Tzeentch's Firestorm
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change : Fold Reality
Gaunt Summoner (120)
- Artefact : Paradoxical Shield
- Lore of Fate : Bolt of Tzeentch
Tzaangor Shaman (160)
- Lore of Fate : Shield of Fate
Units
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change : Unchecked Mutation
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change : Treason of Tzeentch
9 x Tzaangor Skyfires (600)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
- 3 x Pair of Savage Blade
- 8 x Savage Greatblade
- 8 x Savage Blade & Arcanite Shield
Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)
Total: 2000 / 2000

 

the vortex can also be 20 blues in a match against stormcast or when you dont need it

last tzaangor is a the icon bearer

 

[josh1989]

7 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Split ... 

“Note that in matched play, you can add models to an existing unit of Blue Horrors even if doing so will increase it above its starting size, up until the unit contains 10 models – any excess Blue Horrors are then lost.”

Okay ... 2 units:

1 Unit of 10 Pink Horrors

1 Unit of 8 Blue Horrors (That initially started out at 20)

1 unit of 12 Blue Horrors (That also started at 20)

Unit of pinks is entirely wiped out, and the Unit of 8 Blue Horrors is within  the 6” range.

Are you adding 2 Blue Horrors to the squad to get 10? (And the ‘additional 18’ are lost?) Or you can add 12 to get to 20 (which was max purchased?)

If the only blue horror unit that is within 6” is the unit of 12 (That was purchased at 20) ... can they add any Blue Horrors?  Or because they are at “more than 10 they can’t refill?

I assume that the “even if doing so will increase it above its starting size” is in reference to a unit of Blues that was created when less than 5 pinks were forced to split?

you can always fill back up to the full unit size you paid for in points for free all models over that count are lost unless you have more summoning points in which case you can pay for a unit which is either 10 20 or 30 pay the points for the unit you want and put as many models as you can from the dead units. i.e. 6 pinks die you pay 100 summoning points for a unit 20 blue horrors then place 12 blue horrors on the table now you can add to that unit up to 20 and so on. you can only summon a new unit if you pay for it with summoning points in full i.e. in 10s as you do in list building but you dont have to fill it right away you can do that as the relevant horrors die and continue to do so as you loose them from the lower unit keep refilling back to the full amount you paid for in summoning points

[Curzex]

So if u have a ogroid thaumaturge that cast his spell. i can Add models to a horror unit that is not full sized and in range?

 

[TheOtherJosh]

46 minutes ago, Curzex said:

So if u have a ogroid thaumaturge that cast his spell. i can Add models to a horror unit that is not full sized and in range?

The Ogroid Thaumagurge spell specifically says: “A Fireblast spell engulfs the target in coruscating flames from which capering daemons spring forth. Fireblast has a casting value of 7. If successfully cast, pick a visible enemy unit within 18" of the caster. The unit you pick suffers D6 mortal wounds. After the damage has been inflicted, you can set up a unit of Pink, Blue or Brimstone Horrors within 1" of the target; the number of models set up in the new unit is equal to the number of mortal wounds inflicted.”

The horror “Split” ability calls out reinforcing a unit. The Fireblast Ability does not.

[Curzex]

I have a 2k tournament friendy.

No vortex allowed.

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Artefact: Paradoxical Shield 
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Tzaangor Shaman (160)
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Tzaangor Shaman (160)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (120)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch
30 x Tzaangors (450)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (160)
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 156
 

The brimstrone are wound pol for arcane sacrifice. A pesudo vortex

30 tzangors with shield of fate and arcane shield.

6 Skyfire 3 enligthered for map control and punch.

[SugarMaple82]

Clarification on the Changehost rules - if you summon in more models that would fit with the host, can you then swap with them? Ie. My lord of change summons in a unit of pink horrors and then immediately swaps and can cast his next spells?

 

Also how does this look as a list:

Lord of Change  - 300

Rod of sorcery, Incorporeal Form, Wellspring of Might and Firestorm

Demon Prince of Tzeentch - 160

Sentient Weapons, Bolt of Tzeentch

Herald of Tzeentch - 120 

undecided spell 

3x 10 Pink Horrors - 120 each

undecided spell

2x10 Blue horrors - 50 each

6x Flamers - 360

Burning Chariot - 160

Soul Grinder - 280

Daemonbone Talon

Changehost - 160

Points 2000/2000

[Olincay]

What second spell does everyone give the gaunt summoner when he's up on the balewind? Firestorm? Bolt of tzeentch? 

[CyderPirate]

10 hours ago, Olincay said:

What second spell does everyone give the gaunt summoner when he's up on the balewind? Firestorm? Bolt of tzeentch? 

I always put treacherous bond on him to give some chance of surviving a shooting phase.

[clubsmash]

On 06/03/2018 at 3:29 PM, SugarMaple82 said:

Clarification on the Changehost rules - if you summon in more models that would fit with the host, can you then swap with them? Ie. My lord of change summons in a unit of pink horrors and then immediately swaps and can cast his next spells?

 

Also how does this look as a list:

Lord of Change  - 300

Rod of sorcery, Incorporeal Form, Wellspring of Might and Firestorm

Demon Prince of Tzeentch - 160

Sentient Weapons, Bolt of Tzeentch

Herald of Tzeentch - 120 

undecided spell 

3x 10 Pink Horrors - 120 each

undecided spell

2x10 Blue horrors - 50 each

6x Flamers - 360

Burning Chariot - 160

Soul Grinder - 280

Daemonbone Talon

Changehost - 160

Points 2000/2000

I would assume you can't do that as they would not be part of the battlion?

[WoollyMammoth]

I don't know what you guys are talking about with cancon, here are the results its only 2 tzeentch
http://www.heraldsofwar.com/documents/cancon-2018-final-results.pdf

I have not yet gone up against the changehost and honestly, I don't understand it, and I haven't been able to find any info online really.

So the general idea is that you put in the changeling at the start and then swap him for something else right? So ... what are you swapping and why?
If you swap a LoC, okay he gets two spells but, that doesn't seem that dominating.
Is it just to swap the Gaunt, pop him on a vortex and then half kill one unit? Seems only good if your opponent has one really expensive unit.
You can swap a ton of horrors and tarpit the enemy I guess?

I just don't get why its so good and doing so well.

[The Cyclop Owl]

3 hours ago, clubsmash said:

I would assume you can't do that as they would not be part of the battlion?

I believe that's correct.

[Napalm Backflip]

I've decided to dive into AoS for real now finally given a local club running an Escalation League. It starts at 500 points and goes to 2000, with no named characters allowed. I'm struggling to build a list, being new to the game and only having a rough understanding of things. I definitely know I want to mix both Daemons and Arcanites. The awesome models are why I decided on DoT so I don't want to limit myself! However, I'm not really sure what (if any) battalion to build towards. Changehost doesn't seem that interesting to me, and I've heard the others aren't worth it.

 Here are a couple of 500 pt starter lists I've kicked together. Any unused points roll over to the next month of play. I'd love some advice and possible expansion paths, if possible! Thanks a ton.

 

List 1 - definitely a one trick pony...errr... bird?

Lord of Change - 300 (overkill at 500 but its a narrative league, keeping the same general throughout)

10 x Pink Horrors - 120

10 x Blue Horrors - 50

 

List 2 - More rounded

Ogroid Thaumaturge

10 x Pink Horrors

10 x Tzaangors

10 x Brimstone Horrors

 

List 3 - Arcanites to start

Tzaangor Shaman

3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disk

10 x Tzaangor

[The Cyclop Owl]

8 hours ago, Napalm Backflip said:

List 1 - definitely a one trick pony...errr... bird?

Lord of Change - 300 (overkill at 500 but its a narrative league, keeping the same general throughout)

10 x Pink Horrors - 120

10 x Blue Horrors - 50

 

List 2 - More rounded

Ogroid Thaumaturge

10 x Pink Horrors

10 x Tzaangors

10 x Brimstone Horrors

 

List 3 - Arcanites to start

Tzaangor Shaman

3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disk

10 x Tzaangor

- List 1 seems unplayable on paper, any close combat list or efficient mortal wound list will shred you to pieces. If you still end up trying it make sure to tell me how it went, I'd be very curious!
- I don't know if list 2 is viable but on paper it's appealing. The only thing I'm scared of is a lack of mobility and range.
- List 3 is not bad, but skyfires are so incredibly superior to enlightened it's a bit of a shame to not run them. A list that would be utterly disgusting for 500 points is 10 pink horrors, 3 skyfires and a shaman.

As you said, Tzeentch battalions are not the most interesting. But to be fair, the allegiance is already so powerful I completely understand why they are so expensive.

For expansion plans: 

• I would strongly recommend adding more tzaangors to your unit. Thanks to the savagery unleashed rule, they are insanely powerful in games where the opponent doesn't have the ability to dispose of them quickly, and they're decently resilient. I personally table 20 of them in 1000points game and they've become the n°1 target of my opponents in most games. 
• Pink horrors are one of the best battleline units in the game, it's a safe and fun choice. They keep coming back to life thanks to your destiny dice in the battleshock test!
• The Gaunt Summoner is an excellent horde killer, in case you encounter a lot of them.
• I really like the profile of the Ogroid, even if I haven't yet found the best way to make it work.
• Tzaangor skyfires combined with a tzaangor shaman are disgustingly good. They can pretty much snipe anything at a range of 40", and they are brutal in close combats.
• Eventually, the Lord of Change will make it onto the table. It's one of the most reliable wizards in the game, and Tzeentch has access to terrifying spells!

[TheOtherJosh]

9 hours ago, Napalm Backflip said:

I've decided to dive into AoS for real now finally given a local club running an Escalation League. It starts at 500 points and goes to 2000, with no named characters allowed. I'm struggling to build a list, being new to the game and only having a rough understanding of things. I definitely know I want to mix both Daemons and Arcanites. The awesome models are why I decided on DoT so I don't want to limit myself! However, I'm not really sure what (if any) battalion to build towards. Changehost doesn't seem that interesting to me, and I've heard the others aren't worth it.

 Here are a couple of 500 pt starter lists I've kicked together. Any unused points roll over to the next month of play. I'd love some advice and possible expansion paths, if possible! Thanks a ton.

 

List 1 - definitely a one trick pony...errr... bird?

Lord of Change - 300 (overkill at 500 but its a narrative league, keeping the same general throughout)

10 x Pink Horrors - 120

10 x Blue Horrors - 50

 

List 2 - More rounded

Ogroid Thaumaturge

10 x Pink Horrors

10 x Tzaangors

10 x Brimstone Horrors

 

List 3 - Arcanites to start

Tzaangor Shaman

3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disk

10 x Tzaangor

List 2 is actually similar to my starting Warband.

The challenge is that the fireblast spell doesn’t reinforce units ... it just creates new ones.

He is, however, a solid beat stick and synergizes well with the Tzaangor. He's an ARCANITE HERO and a WIZARD so ... +1 to wound and mortal wounds from Icon Bearers for your Tzaangor. The Pink Horrors are also a WIZARD so .... more mortal wounds there ... from the Tzaangor if they’re close enough. And they can do some range support softening up.

I like Infusion Arcanum for the Ogroid (minimal casting value and +1 to hit and wound for the caster) and Treason of Tzeentch for the Horrors. (Remember that ToZ was faq’d)

[boelimaa]

Hello change friends. 

 

Any tipps for Tzeentch against Seraphon? (1000p game end of week) 

Its gonna be my first experience Seraphon; my current thoughts: 

Curseling + MagicalSupremacy

Flamers

no skyfires

60 horrors

Any advice or a tipp would be appreciated :-)

All the best

Thomas

[AaronWilson]

Hey guys. My LGS is having a painting competition and I've decided to jump in with a box of Tzaangors on discs. I'm going to build them with bows as there is some excellent poses for painting.

It would be rude not to jump into the DoT at the same time. What are good early buys for the army?

[AaronWilson]

Looking at making lists for 2k. Is there any batallions I'm missing we should be making use of? As it stands I can't see any that really stand out.

[Seraquim]

Hi all,

 

My local store has started running a 1250 pt amateur series.

I have the following list:

Lord of change (general, arch sorcerer trait, pyrofane staff as artifact)

Tzaangor shaman

2x3 Tzaangor skyfires

2x 10 Kairic acolytes

1x5 Warriors of chaos(/w mark of Tzeentch)

1 Gorebeast chariot (/w mark of Tzeentch)

 

I am thinking about to swap the chariot and the warriors for 10 Tzaangors. What do u think about the Tzaangors? Worth their cost(both irl and in-game). Are they good in this setup? Do u have any idea for further setup modifications? Balewind vortex is banned.

 

Thanks all

[Nevvermore]

So what do people think about Flamers, Screamers, Exalted Flamers, Burning Chariots, and the different Heralds? Never see anyone run them because they're probably not optimal, but surely they must be playable in a normal (non-tournament) setting? To me the Burning Chariot and Herald on foot seem like they could be good, which is nice seeing as you can make both from one chariot kit. Flamers seem ok. Screamers, Exalted Flamers and Heralds on Chariot or Disc seem pretty bad.

[Oldshrimpeyes]

So I thought I got the paradoxical shield until I read the FAQ and now I'm confused. 

The FAQ says you re roll successful saves. You can then add 2 to save rolls after re rolls have been taken.

So, as I understand it by that wording I don't add +2 to the save unless I am re rolling it due to passing the first one. Is that right? If it is, the shield is hot garbage, right?

[ledha]

On 09/03/2018 at 6:51 PM, WoollyMammoth said:

I don't know what you guys are talking about with cancon, here are the results its only 2 tzeentch
http://www.heraldsofwar.com/documents/cancon-2018-final-results.pdf

I have not yet gone up against the changehost and honestly, I don't understand it, and I haven't been able to find any info online really.

So the general idea is that you put in the changeling at the start and then swap him for something else right? So ... what are you swapping and why?
If you swap a LoC, okay he gets two spells but, that doesn't seem that dominating.
Is it just to swap the Gaunt, pop him on a vortex and then half kill one unit? Seems only good if your opponent has one really expensive unit.
You can swap a ton of horrors and tarpit the enemy I guess?

I just don't get why its so good and doing so well.

You tarpit the ennemy during the whole game. Because the swap is extremely free (you can swap and appear in less than 3" of the opponent, and you really "swap" only two minis and the rest of the units just have to within 9" of the initial swapped models), it's nearly free teleportation everywhere for everyone.  Example here with unit A and B that you swap, at first with model C and D and use it to "move" the units.

 

A A A A A C                                                 B B B B B D

                       D B B B B B                                                 C A A A A A

Now imagine with big units of horrors than can appear in melee, and so can go everywhere without having to keep their initial formation.

Transfering pink to blues and blues to brimstone become nearly guaranteed, so it's a ultra mobile and tough tarpit than throw hundred of weaks, but still hundred of ranged attacks while the LOC and caster throw spells wherever they want while being screened against pretty much everything

The two version are ton of horrors (like more than 150) without summoning, or much less horrors (maybe 80/90) with ton of summoning. Both are valid (the first is more effective in the early game, but the second make the number more consistent)

A very strong and tough gunline can win (you don't scare of a horror screen if you can shoot freely), but a full melee army don't have any chance. It is very good to prevent teleportation, too.

For example, in one of my game against a changehost in battle of the pass, i ran with my army, covering as much terrain as i could, taking mine and the two middle objective (so 5 pts) and imprisonning the changeling with one unit. My opponent swapped the changelin with a unit of brimstone that made a conga line trough my own objective, then this unit with another than encircled my objective and outnumbered me while being away from my menacing units. He then advance his 30-men units on the middle objectives. 9 pts. Double turn for him. 18 pts.

I didn't had any way to prevent that (except if i played a full horde army with 200 models and covering all my board) and the LOC+Gaunt are free to snipe any dangerous model/unit by magic or melee (the LOC is insanely good in melee). Most of the list don't have any counterplay against it and can just watch the horrors going wherever they want and taking objectives trough sheer numerical advantage.

[TheOtherJosh]

1 hour ago, Oldshrimpeyes said:

So I thought I got the paradoxical shield until I read the FAQ and now I'm confused. 

The FAQ says you re roll successful saves. You can then add 2 to save rolls after re rolls have been taken.

So, as I understand it by that wording I don't add +2 to the save unless I am re rolling it due to passing the first one. Is that right? If it is, the shield is hot garbage, right?

“Page 77 – Fated Artefacts, Paradoxical Shield
Change the rules text to:
‘Re-roll successful save rolls for the bearer. In addition, add 2 to the save rolls for the bearer (after any re-rolls have been taken).”

So the process is:

1. If successful roll (before modifiers) Reroll.

2. If the roll is a failure. Do not Reroll.

2a. (If the roll is a roll of 1, (either originally or after the Reroll) it is a failure due to the rule of 1.)

3. After any Rerolls have been taken due to succeeding (or rerolls for 1s if you have that capability) add 2. (Along with any additional modifiers for rend, additional bonuses ... etc.)

4. If the new total after all modifiers have been applied is your save value. The save was successful.

Remember: Rerolls come before modifiers.

So as an example with 4+ save.

Reroll 4,5,6

Roll Of 2. (Fail) Add 2 for the shield. Success.

Fatemaster. Save of 4+, add 2 if the opponent isn’t flying. With Paradoxical Shield even succeeds with up to a -2 rend against stuff that doesn’t fly as long as you don’t roll a 1.

Roll Of 1 always fails, 2 to 3, fail, but you can then add Add 2 for shield, add 2 if opponent isn’t flying ... success on an “anything but 1 roll”.

Success on a 3+. Rerolls 3,4,5,6. Succeeds on “anything but 1”.

Seems pretty solid. You’re always adding 2 to the save after any mandatory Rerolls are taken. So, only a final roll of 1 is a guaranteed failure.

[excalibur]

Hey, all! 

I was recently checking out that beautiful Tzeentch Start Collecting set and knew I had to snatch it up. (I am also in love with the beautiful Thousand Sons of who they cohort.) Since I just got back into Warhammer, I started up a semi-Skyre Skaven army, not too heavy on points so I could take some allies if I saw some cool minis. And, I’m pretty sure you know where this is going, I am wondering how the Skaven would synergise with the Tzeentch. Obviously, lore-wise, it would be a hot mess, but I was wondering if gameplay-wise anything would work out. (I’ve already decided my army would look pretty snazzy with the Daemons and Skaven, so that’s not an issue.) But, in a nutshell, I was just wondering how (if) the Skaven and Tzeentch do together. Not too much competitive-wise, just if their styles go nice together. I just adore the models, and I feel that I need to get in on this action.

Thanks! 

[Oldshrimpeyes]

20 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

“Page 77 – Fated Artefacts, Paradoxical Shield
Change the rules text to:
‘Re-roll successful save rolls for the bearer. In addition, add 2 to the save rolls for the bearer (after any re-rolls have been taken).”

So the process is:

1. If successful roll (before modifiers) Reroll.

2. If the roll is a failure. Do not Reroll.

2a. (If the roll is a roll of 1, (either originally or after the Reroll) it is a failure due to the rule of 1.)

3. After any Rerolls have been taken due to succeeding (or rerolls for 1s if you have that capability) add 2. (Along with any additional modifiers for rend, additional bonuses ... etc.)

4. If the new total after all modifiers have been applied is your save value. The save was successful.

Remember: Rerolls come before modifiers.

So as an example with 4+ save.

Reroll 4,5,6

Roll Of 2. (Fail) Add 2 for the shield. Success.

Fatemaster. Save of 4+, add 2 if the opponent isn’t flying. With Paradoxical Shield even succeeds with up to a -2 rend against stuff that doesn’t fly as long as you don’t roll a 1.

Roll Of 1 always fails, 2 to 3, fail, but you can then add Add 2 for shield, add 2 if opponent isn’t flying ... success on an “anything but 1 roll”.

Success on a 3+. Rerolls 3,4,5,6. Succeeds on “anything but 1”.

Seems pretty solid. You’re always adding 2 to the save after any mandatory Rerolls are taken. So, only a final roll of 1 is a guaranteed failure.

Alright, I think I get it. You explained that pretty well. Here comes the curve ball;

What happens with the Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount? He re rolls failed saves. If you can't re roll a re roll then this is how I see it working out:

Roll to save. He fails. Ability triggers. You take the result.

Roll to save. He passes. Roll due to paradoxical shield. You take the result.

My questions therefore are:

1)is this right?

2) is there an argument to be made for the following: can you add +2 to his save roll if you re roll the first one due to falling it? (As per his ability from MoT). The paradoxical shield does state you add 2 after re rolls but doesn't specify where the re roll has to "come from".

3) is it worth putting the shield on him at all?