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Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch


Nico

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How does this look for an 1000pt starter list? I'm not sure on spells/artifacts/general junk quite yet but I have a good base to build into Multidinous Host for 1500/2000. Which is my goal. 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Herald Of Tzeentch (120)
- Staff of Change 
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability 
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- General
- Trait: Nexus of Fate 
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch(40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch(40)
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
3 x Screamers Of Tzeentch (120)
3 x Flamers Of Tzeentch (180) 

Total: 1000 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 88

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Hi all!
I was taking a look at the Cancon rankings and this is the highest ranking Tzeentch list:

Leaders

Lord Of Change (300)

- General

- Trait: Magical Supremacy

- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might

The Changeling (140)

Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (120)

Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)

- Artefact: Daemonheart

Tzaangor Shaman (160)

 

Battleline

10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

10 x Tzaangors (180)

 

Units

3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (160)

3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)

 

Battalions

Alter-kin Coven (70)

 

Reinforcement Points (310)

Total: 2000 / 2000

 

 

Questions:

_How is she using the reinforcement points? 

_I'm getting back in the game, and I still don't  understand what people do with the changeling in competitive. Back in the enemy's line, and treason of Tzeentch on some elites unit?

_How is she holding the line with only 30 minis and the Ogroid? Does she summon pink or blue horrors?

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On 1/29/2018 at 9:34 PM, AverageBoss said:

Wow. It's going to be difficult to keep him hidden for more than half a turn against several armies.

Which is a good thing considering that the changeling happens to be probably the most frustrating unit in the game to play against

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14 hours ago, stratigo said:

Which is a good thing considering that the changeling happens to be probably the most frustrating unit in the game to play against

Of all the things that could have been nerfed in Tzeentch (and the Devoted of Sigmar had their pitchforks aimed at Split, Destiny Dice, Balewinds, Changehost, you name it), this was probably the least painful.

I believe I'm right in saying that the Changeling in the DoT turn can still walk up to right next to an enemy unit in the movement phase within 3" (if they treat him as friendly then surely he treats them as friendly too - it's reciprocal). If that unit is a hero, then he will be revealed at the end of the movement phase. However, he could sneak up on a Monster with a weapon that doesn't degrade with damage (if any) and bash noggin at leisure (in addition to the other option of charging and instantly revealing himself at that point). Thoughts? 

Further reaction to the FAQ (including quite a bit on DoT) here:

 

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To be honest I think the only way that GW can adress Tzeentch propperly is to write a 2E for the DoT book. Because man... That are too many changes to comfortably put into FAQ/Errata's over and over again. 

Offcourse that's just my opinion ;) 

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14 minutes ago, Killax said:

To be honest I think the only way that GW can adress Tzeentch propperly is to write a 2E for the DoT book. Because man... That are too many changes to comfortably put into FAQ/Errata's over and over again. 

Offcourse that's just my opinion ;) 

While they are at it, they need to nerf khorne with a new book too, both are books that have a couple of tier 1 lists and that really shouldn't be allowed.  Why deal with just the  overbearing netlists when we can wield the ban hammer with great abandon by weakening the factions so that the tier 1 lists are tier 2, and the tier 2 lists are unplayable.

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51 minutes ago, Killax said:

To be honest I think the only way that GW can adress Tzeentch propperly is to write a 2E for the DoT book. Because man... That are too many changes to comfortably put into FAQ/Errata's over and over again. 

Offcourse that's just my opinion ;) 

Yeah I agree. Even though the DoT started it all they now need to catch up to the 'modern' way of thinking. Every battletome since has taken on the form of DoT's book which is great and all but there are tons of issues that need to be ironed out. 

Even with changes to spells, changes to the Changeling, changes to the Changehost...they are still the top or near it. Pretty sure 3 of the top 5 LVO list were Tzeentch lol i cant think of many more changes that can be done that wouldnt completely nerf the faction into unplayable aside from completely rewritting the core mechanics of the book. If points costs would drop across the board that would open up more options I would think.

And here I am still wanting a Tzaangor heavy list that isnt another lame Changehost clone. Thank Tzeentch for Thousand Sons lol

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49 minutes ago, KnightFire said:

While they are at it, they need to nerf khorne with a new book too, both are books that have a couple of tier 1 lists and that really shouldn't be allowed.  Why deal with just the  overbearing netlists when we can wield the ban hammer with great abandon by weakening the factions so that the tier 1 lists are tier 2, and the tier 2 lists are unplayable.

I really don't know what your on about in the case of nerfing? But feel free to point out tier 1 lists that shouldn't be allowed.

My point is that in the Chaos FAQ roughly 3 pages are about Desciples of Tzeentch and have severely altered Warscrolls. 

16 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Yeah I agree. Even though the DoT started it all they now need to catch up to the 'modern' way of thinking. Every battletome since has taken on the form of DoT's book which is great and all but there are tons of issues that need to be ironed out. 

Even with changes to spells, changes to the Changeling, changes to the Changehost...they are still the top or near it. Pretty sure 3 of the top 5 LVO list were Tzeentch lol i cant think of many more changes that can be done that wouldnt completely nerf the faction into unplayable aside from completely rewritting the core mechanics of the book. If points costs would drop across the board that would open up more options I would think.

And here I am still wanting a Tzaangor heavy list that isnt another lame Changehost clone. Thank Tzeentch for Thousand Sons lol

Yeah we'll see how GW feels about. Having said that, Tzeentch isn't even the biggest offender in terms of power. That's the really funny thing. Because if you look into the several choices Order have it isn't suprising that Tzeentch makes great tournament appearances but doesn't win them all to often ;) 

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2 minutes ago, Killax said:

I really don't know what your on about in the case of nerfing? But feel free to point out tier 1 lists that shouldn't be allowed.

My point is that in the Chaos FAQ roughly 3 pages are about Desciples of Tzeentch and have severely altered Warscrolls. 

Yeah we'll see how GW feels about. Having said that, Tzeentch isn't even the biggest offender in terms of power. That's the really funny thing. Because if you look into the several choices Order have it isn't suprising that Tzeentch makes great tournament appearances but doesn't win them all to often ;) 

They do win a good chunk of them and are usually over represented at events compared to others but yeah Order does have a lot of crazy shenanigans. Look at Fyreslayers...from zero to hero with not even a book but with allegiance abilities. Time will tell is Death ends up the same. Its looking like Arkhan lists will be able to snuff out Tzeentch casting.  Id be happy with more viable options other then Changehost with a personal tweak

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22 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

 Id be happy with more viable options other then Changehost with a personal tweak

The highest ranking Tzeentch at CanCon was running a melee oriented list with an Alter-kin Coven, an Ogroïd Thaumaturge and even a unit of Tzangors Enlighteneds.
I'm not saying it's optimal, but it's feasible!


edit: also, I don't get the fuss about LVO. Tzeentch didn't make it into the top 5.

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1 hour ago, The Cyclop Owl said:

The highest ranking Tzeentch at CanCon was running a melee oriented list with an Alter-kin Coven, an Ogroïd Thaumaturge and even a unit of Tzangors Enlighteneds.
I'm not saying it's optimal, but it's feasible!


edit: also, I don't get the fuss about LVO. Tzeentch didn't make it into the top 5.

Yes it did. 3 out of the top 5 were all Changehost lists I believe. Unless i was looking at a different category...

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1 minute ago, Malakithe said:

Yes it did. 3 out of the top 5 were all Changehost lists I believe. Unless i was looking at a different category...

2 changehost and 1 skyfires in top 5, which is a lot of tzeentch (3 out of 5) but there are a number of factors to that.

1) These are strong lists that the players using have probably been using for some time, and are pre the latest FAQs and the rise of nurgle armies, so we need to see how they affect thigns.

2) there is a big absense of Tzeentch lists that aren't changehost or skyfires in the top 20 lists, so nerfing tzeentch in general isnt whats needed.

 

So I would say based on the recent changes and release of nurgle (which is a strong counter to these lists) and death (which is good against changehost) the lists will naturally thin out in a few months.

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39 minutes ago, KnightFire said:

2 changehost and 1 skyfires in top 5, which is a lot of tzeentch (3 out of 5) but there are a number of factors to that.

1) These are strong lists that the players using have probably been using for some time, and are pre the latest FAQs and the rise of nurgle armies, so we need to see how they affect thigns.

2) there is a big absense of Tzeentch lists that aren't changehost or skyfires in the top 20 lists, so nerfing tzeentch in general isnt whats needed.

 

So I would say based on the recent changes and release of nurgle (which is a strong counter to these lists) and death (which is good against changehost) the lists will naturally thin out in a few months.

What needs to happen is points decreases across the faction in order to open up more viable options. Keep skyfires at 200 which is fine but everything else needs to come down. Not the Gaunt though. He is fine were he is too.

Im afraid what will happen is what Blizzard does with its games. See something that out performs the rest and nerfs it into unplayable. What needs to happen is the other options for Tzeentch need to be brought up a few notches 

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I came 12th at Cancon with my Tzeentch list however it was just a pure mortal army with the Fatesworn Battlalion which I was happy with being the only Fatesworn army in the 110 person tournament. 4 Tzeentch players above me included fellow Sydney players Scott Norwood in 9th with a mix of chaos warriors, sayl, skyfires and LoC and Ashley McEwan with the top Tzeeentch army 5th with one of the coven battalion. Not sure what Luke and Hayden were running?

Great tournament!!!!!

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9 hours ago, Ratso said:

I came 12th at Cancon with my Tzeentch list however it was just a pure mortal army with the Fatesworn Battlalion which I was happy with being the only Fatesworn army in the 110 person tournament. 4 Tzeentch players above me included fellow Sydney players Scott Norwood in 9th with a mix of chaos warriors, sayl, skyfires and LoC and Ashley McEwan with the top Tzeeentch army 5th with one of the coven battalion. Not sure what Luke and Hayden were running?

Great tournament!!!!!

Yeah this gives me hope for other options. I just the Tzaangor models lol but nearly every battalion thats not Changehost is ******. And running more then one unit of Tzaangors is way to costly

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13 hours ago, Ratso said:

I came 12th at Cancon with my Tzeentch list however it was just a pure mortal army with the Fatesworn Battlalion which I was happy with being the only Fatesworn army in the 110 person tournament. 4 Tzeentch players above me included fellow Sydney players Scott Norwood in 9th with a mix of chaos warriors, sayl, skyfires and LoC and Ashley McEwan with the top Tzeeentch army 5th with one of the coven battalion. Not sure what Luke and Hayden were running?

Great tournament!!!!!

Awesome to hear, 110 man tournament is really something! :o How do you feel the Grand Allegiance spread was? 40/30/20/10?

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On 2/7/2018 at 6:00 AM, Malakithe said:

What needs to happen is points decreases across the faction in order to open up more viable options. Keep skyfires at 200 which is fine but everything else needs to come down. Not the Gaunt though. He is fine were he is too.

Im afraid what will happen is what Blizzard does with its games. See something that out performs the rest and nerfs it into unplayable. What needs to happen is the other options for Tzeentch need to be brought up a few notches 

Don't agree about the GS.... he, if anything, needs to be brought up in points. Any caster with that powerful of a spell, who gets +1 to casting [with familiars] a has 2 spells should be at least140-160 points.

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56 minutes ago, Tasman said:

Don't agree about the GS.... he, if anything, needs to be brought up in points. Any caster with that powerful of a spell, who gets +1 to casting [with familiars] a has 2 spells should be at least140-160 points.

A large number of wizard/casters with only one spell are in the 80 point range accross the AoS range.

At 160 points, you’re literally talking about two models worth of caster points, which could give broader coverage of the field and two targets for your opponent.

Currently, at 1.5x the cost of your base 80 point single spell caster, and given that the points went up from the prior GHB (for at least one ‘version’ of the GS ... we will have to see what GW thinks come GHB 2018.

Either way, a situation where only a minimal number of army builds are viable isn’t good place for any army to be in.

This likely means that other units aren’t in a good “price point” or lack tactical flexibility required to beat other factions for their cost.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi there, having a bit of trouble against a local seraphon player with my tzeentch list. He uses bastiladon to teleport to my back lines and ****** snakes on them all game, he also always manages to get on the objectives first and is hard to move off in time. Any help us much appreciated, this is what i am running..


Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Command Trait : Magical Supremacy
- Artefact : Wellspring of Arcane Might
- Lore of Change : Tzeentch's Firestorm

Herald Of Tzeentch (120)
- Staff of Change
- Lore of Change : Unchecked Mutation

The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change : Fold Reality
Gaunt Summoner (120)
- Lore of Fate : Treacherous Bond
Tzaangor Shaman (160)
- Lore of Fate : Glimpse the Future
Units
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change : Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change : Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change : Fold Reality
30 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
9 x Tzaangor Skyfires (600)
Reinforcement Points (100)
Total: 2000 / 2000

the 100 summoning is for Balewind Vortex or splitting to brimstones.

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I think it might be because your list is very heavy in wizards but light in close combat capability. How about switching the blue scribes and a unit of pink horrors for a unit of 20 tzaangors? You keep the same shell and will still be able to dish out ridiculous amount of mortal wounds through spells and skyfires (perhaps with slightly less consistency, but you already have wellspring of arcane might) and you can create your self a decent frontline and backline. 

Furthermore, the tzaangors can run and charge, and the bigger the unit the more they can attack.  Possibly this will help you securing the objectives more easily.
I am personally quite far off from having the army complete atm, but I am aiming for a similar list to yours with these modifications :

  • -1 herald of Tzeentch
  • -1 blue scribes
  • -1 unit of pink horrors
  • +1 unit of 30 tzaangors.



The other obvious solution would be to drop the skyfires, add the changeling and a load of blue horrors and brimstones and take the changehost battalion. Whatever they try to throw at you in close combat you can slow down, shift around and dramatically increase your mobility. I think the probem with your list is that it seats in between. It's super greedy in the spell + mortal wound but it's very slim when it comes to the battleline.

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4 hours ago, Curzex said:

Hi guys, my friends talk that tzangors 30 size unit with shield of fate and arcane shield is op.

What you think? 

Is a Autoinclude?

It's an extremely strong and durable unit.

 

Tzeentch has enough ways to make an amazing list that it isn't an auto include, but they can be part of a tournament level list.

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