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Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch


Nico

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3 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Okay:

If you have All Tzeentch units in your Army (no unmarked units)

You can do a Grand Alliance Chaos Faction army. And choose Allegiance:Tzeentch 

This allows you to use Marauders (Tzeentch Marked) as Battleline. (You can't use Chaos Marauder Horsemen as Battleline, however)

And I would be able to use the stuff out of the Disciples of Tzeentch Book?

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9 minutes ago, Deathawaits101 said:

And I would be able to use the stuff out of the Disciples of Tzeentch Book?

Yes. 

With a "Grand Alliance Chaos Army" with Allegiance:Tzeentch you could use Anything that could take Mark of Tzeentch.

However, everything would have to be marked Tzeentch. (So you could not take Allies from the Allies lists because Grand Alliance Chaos has no Allies list.)

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43 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Yes. 

With a "Grand Alliance Chaos Army" with Allegiance:Tzeentch you could use Anything that could take Mark of Tzeentch.

However, everything would have to be marked Tzeentch. (So you could not take Allies from the Allies lists because Grand Alliance Chaos has no Allies list.)

Would I still get destiny dice? Thank you for being patience with me.. 

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If your army is allegiance: tzeentch you get destiny dice. 

 

Allies are an exception allowing you to keep allegiance: tzeentch despite the fact that not everything has tzeentch allegiance, but they only apply if you take the core of your force from a single faction. 

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2 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

Nothing allows Sayl to be taken as an ally under any circumstance unless GW FAQs how allies work. 

No. But if you choose Faction "Grand Alliance Chaos" army ... and then choose Sayl and only other "Slaves to Darkness" units the army would qualify for either Allegiance:Slaves to Darkness or Allegiance:Chaos.

(However, one wouldn't be able to take Allies with this approach.)

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Too Bad. ....But thx for the Info

 

Anyone tried an multinious host yet? (200 points is quit alot but with reduce pink Horrors Cost and discount on Blocks of 30 Horrors Not that much More...)with what to combine the list?thinkIng About LOC and gaunt. ...maybe skyfire or flamers to fill up to 2k? 

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I disagree re Sayl - if you're all marked Tzeentch then you can take Allies from the Disciples of Tzeentch option. DoT and Tzeentch are synonyms as far as I can tell.

Their allies include Sayl who is Slaves to Darkness.

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1 hour ago, Nico said:

I disagree re Sayl - if you're all marked Tzeentch then you can take Allies from the Disciples of Tzeentch option. DoT and Tzeentch are synonyms as far as I can tell.

Their allies include Sayl who is Slaves to Darkness.

Sayl has the keyword "Slaves to Darkness", but the Allies are not pulled from the keyword names.They're pulled from the Pitched Battle Faction names.

Sayl is on the "Tamurkhan's Horde" Pitched Battle Faction list. Which is not on the DoT list of Allies. (It isn't on anyone's list actually...)

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Again I disagree as it would make it impossible to mingle mortal Slaves of Tzeentch with Arcanites and Tzeentch Daemons. The Slaves would end up being allies and would be limited to 400 points (which is an absurd result).

Similarly Stormcast units in the Guardians of Alarielle Battalion gain the Sylvaneth keyword for allegiance purposes AND surely allies purposes.

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19 minutes ago, Nico said:

Again I disagree as it would make it impossible to mingle mortal Slaves of Tzeentch with Arcanites and Tzeentch Daemons. The Slaves would end up being allies and would be limited to 400 points (which is an absurd result).

Similarly Stormcast units in the Guardians of Alarielle Battalion gain the Sylvaneth keyword for allegiance purposes AND surely allies purposes.

You can already mix Mortal Slaves of Tzeentch, DoT and Daemons of Tzeentch.

One makes a Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos Army with everything keyworded Tzeentch.

The keyword Tzeentch means they meet the Allegiance: Tzeentch requirement.

It just negates the ability to take Allies, due to GA armies not having an Allies list. (All units would need to be able to have the  Tzeentch keyword.)

Sayl can't be keyworded Tzeentch. Neither can the Darkoath Chieftain.

edit: And both the Slaughterbrute of Khorne and Mutalith Vortex Beast of Tzeentch are now on the DoT and BoK Pitched Battle Profile army list. There is a version that is not keyworded that is also on the Monsters of Chaos profile list.

edit 2: Keywords determine Allegiance, not Faction profile list membership. Allies are chosen not from the Profile list, not from a list of keywords (until FAQ'd otherwise.)

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Hey All, I'm new to AOS (40k player) finally jumping in and love the look of DoT and would love some feed back on this 2000 point list I've come up with! Cheers in advance. 

 Heroes: 

Curseling (General) 

  • magical Supremacy 
  • Paradoxical shield 
  • Shield of fate

Kairos Fate weaver 

Ogroid Thaumaturge

  • Time Slip pendant 
  • Infusion Arcanum 

The Changeling 

Battleline:

20 x Tzaangors 

20 x Kairic Acolytes 

20 x Kairic Acolytes 

 

Other units:

3 x Tzaangor Enlightened 

 

Warscrolls: 

Witchfyre Coven 

Leaving me with 190 points to add anything else 

 

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8 minutes ago, Nico said:

Again - it doesn't make sense for a Mixed Tzeentch army to be unable to take any Allies at all.

It does from the perspective of limiting the options for Allegiance Battletraits.

It is an "Allies or Allegiance?" question. (At least based on the current way that Allies are determined.) If one could "roll back" to the GA and take Allies, and still get the Allegiance Abilities there would be no reason for GW to have split out the army lists into Factions for Chaos other than at the Chaos Deity level. (Which they chose not to do initially, and didn't move in that direction when they updated the Daemons of Nurgle faction profile ally list.)

GW already double-listed some units in the Profiles to put them into specific Pitched Battle Profile lists. Daemon Princes, the Slaughterbrute, and Mutalith immediately come to mind.

If one chooses the GA list, and a Mark then the Allegiance Abilities are available.

Indirectly doing so is a huge "not an ally-ally list". It opens the ability to take a Soul Grinder (as an example) and still have full compliments of Battleline from any Tzeentch flavored Faction.

But it doesn't give free reign to making a list and being able to cherry pick all of the options.

Basically, lists will need to have their Faction and Allegiance and Allies defined as part of the listbuilding process.

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1 hour ago, Paul Buckler said:

So for example you would say a nighthaunt army containing a mournghul couldn't ally anything?  (as Mournghul isn't listed anywhere with allies?)

The Pitched Battle Profile Faction list the Mournghul is part of is part of the "Monstrous Arcanum" 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/aos_warscrolls/aos_matched_play_points.pdf

The "Faction: Monstrous Arcanum" isn't part of any Pitched Battle Profile Ally list.

It is choosable in a Grand Alliance Death Army ... and because it has the Nighthaunt keyword it would allow meeting the requirement for an "Allegiance: Nighthaunt" Army in an army that only had other Nighthaunt units. It also would meet the "Death" and "Malignant" Allegiance traits. (Though there isn't a Faction Battletrait for Malignants.) However it would not be able to taken as an "Ally". And Grand Allegiance armies don't have ally tables.

Currently AoS has not gone down the route of "Faction" keywords vs "Allegiance" keywords, and many of the keywords currently overlap .

If Forgeworld were to split the Monstrous Arcanum (And Tamurkhan's Horde) into GW Pitched Battle Faction lists, it would be a different story. (Or add lines for Pitched Battle Faction list. The precedent exists for Daemons of Chaos with Daemon Princes.

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Yeah, Faction and Allegiance are separate entities. If you play a Disciples of Tzeentch army, then including units from the Slaves to Darkness list (where Sayl is not) requires using Allies. If you bring more than 400 points from the Slaves to Darkness list, you will no longer get the benefits of having the DoT faction (battleline-if options and such). Your list is now a mixed Tzeentch list and can still use the Tzeentch Allegiance, since that is determined by keywords. However, it cannot take any Allies because it doesn't belong to any single Faction.

It would be absurd if you were allowed to have 800 points of DoT, 800 points of StD and 200 points each of units from their own, separate Allies lists. This iteration of the GH puts a lot more restrictions in place to award mono-faction play.

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4 hours ago, Paul Buckler said:

So for example you would say a nighthaunt army containing a mournghul couldn't ally anything?  (as Mournghul isn't listed anywhere with allies?)

Yeah, exactly. A Nighthaunt army with a Mourngul would be Allegiance Nighthaunt, but not Faction Nighthaunt.

It is not Faction Nighthaunt because it takes the Mourngul, which is neither in the Nighthaunt list of units nor in the Nighthaunt list of Allies.

It retains the Nighthaunt Allegiance because of keywords.

5 hours ago, Nico said:

Again - it doesn't make sense for a Mixed Tzeentch army to be unable to take any Allies at all.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is taking half your units from one Faction, the other half from a second Faction and then cherry picking Allies from either (or both) Faction's lists.

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As a side note: The DoT "battleline if" requirements are actually able to be met in a Mixed Tzeentch Army.

It requires: Allegiance:Tzeentch and that the General be a "Herald of Tzeentch on a Burning Chariot."

Both of which are able to be met :)

So, there's a bunch of flexibility options available.

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Yeah, exactly. A Nighthaunt army with a Mourngul would be Allegiance Nighthaunt, but not Faction Nighthaunt.

This is absurd. Rules interpreted purposively (which GW endorses - e.g. they stopped Monsters summoning Balewinds, then when people exploited a loophole to get monsters onto Balewinds despite this they closed that down too - they don't want to reward extreme literalism like this which explicitly tries to subvert the clear purpose of the rule) will not tolerate absurdities like this. 

Not only is it absurd but it's also wrong - proof by counterexample - the Forgeworld Rogue Idol is Greenskinz keyword - it has been described as an ally option for Destruction players and had its points reset to 400 (even though it resides in the PDF and not in the Greenskinz section of the GHB 2017. The same applies to the Mourngul. It's a keywords game!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/18/the-rogue-idol-returns/

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