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Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch


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44 minutes ago, Nevvermore said:

Technically, you are wrong. Technically, this is a stupid discussion. But they are right. This passage refers to ALLEGIANCE. you are correct, any model with the TZEENTCH keyword can be used in an army using the TZEENTCH alliegance abilities.

the problem is the ally rules don't refer to ALLEGIANCE. they refer to FACTION. FACTION and ALLEGIANCE are not the same thing. A FACTION consists of the units in the faction list, pg 87-111 in the generals handbook. An army consisting solely of models from one faction can take X points of allies without losing their alliegance abilities. 

So so what's the problem? Well... in the DISCIPLES OF TZEENTCH FACTION, listed on pg 91 of the GHB, Slaves to Darkness units aren't included. That means Slaves to Darkness are not DISCIPLES OF TZEENTCH FACTION. And thus, a TZEENTCH ALLEGIANCE army that includes any Slaves to Darkness cannot take allies and keep their alliegance abilities. 

is this a stupid technicality? Yes. Is this just an oversight from the writers? Yes. Is it obvious that they meant for Slaves to Darkness to count as DISCIPLES OF TZEENTCH FACTION? Yes. Should we stop talking about it? Probably not, because clear wording is always good, and while the intent is clear in this case, the actual text is not.

It's really way simpler. You mark those Slaves to Darkness with Tzeentch,  they are Tzeentch. The Chaos gods don't work like all the other factions. Marauders in a Tzeentch list marked with Tzeentch become the game allegiance. They are technically the same faction. Taking marauders in Tzeentch with other allies does nothing to the Marauders allegiance. Honest guv. It's definitely not wrong. If you take Marauders in a Tzeentch list, you still have 400 points to spend on allies.  

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24 minutes ago, hobgoblinclub said:

Honest guv. I've played as Tzeentch in many a tournament.

With the Faction and Allies rule that came out last week? :P

 

The concept of factions and allies until now did not exist. All the rules regarding it are on page 86 of the general handbook. They aren't that long and there isn't really an wiggle room. Until a rules errata is released the rules do not allow for including models that are not listed in the faction list in that faction because they are not on the list of models that are in that faction.

 

So more interestingly... anyone have any good GHB2017 lists? Not played much DoT, how does Changehost work? Is it still good now? Skyfires were filth before are they now priced about right or too expensive?

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OK dudes...one last roll of the dice, so you're not playing it wrong. Check out the photos - a Tzeentch list, retaining Tzeentch allegiance, which has Tzeentch marauders and some non-tzeenchian allies.

I understand you're trying to make the distinction between Tzeentch and DoT but it there really isn't one. If there were, DoT would need to be an allegiance in the Azyr part of the app. It's not there. That'd mean no DoT player has ever been able to use the app to build an army within allegiance. The fact that Tzeentch and DoT seem to be two different things is clearly just poor wording on GW's part. Everything should really be DoT going forwards. 

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1 hour ago, hobgoblinclub said:

OK dudes...one last roll of the dice, so you're not playing it wrong. Check out the photos - a Tzeentch list, retaining Tzeentch allegiance, which has Tzeentch marauders and some non-tzeenchian allies.

I understand you're trying to make the distinction between Tzeentch and DoT but it there really isn't one. If there were, DoT would need to be an allegiance in the Azyr part of the app. It's not there. That'd mean no DoT player has ever been able to use the app to build an army within allegiance. The fact that Tzeentch and DoT seem to be two different things is clearly just poor wording on GW's part. Everything should really be DoT going forwards. 

 

 

So what you're saying is you agree? That the rule is written one way and intended another way.  That's what everyone's been saying all along...

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Not sure I'd rest my argument on the currently bug-filled Azyr app. The rule says what it says. Azyr should follow what the rules say. 

3 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Why is this still a discussion? There are no allies worth taking. Period. Every potential 'ally' worth anything can be marked and then wouldnt be a ally at all. 

So...move on...back to tactics and list building!

There's plenty of decent allies available. Off the top of my head, Shaggoths and Jabberslythes are really good cheap behemoths that are useful for the mission requiring leaders or behemoths to score. The shaggoth is a great choice for tzeentch armies, where you sometimes have excess spells you don't end up using (healing + combat boost on a shaggoth is really potent).

You could fit two jabberslythes and a shaggoth in your allies slot for 400 pts! 

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1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

Ok on to list building time! Who can help me with a list involving a LoC, Tzaangors, and lots of magic?

Pretty low requirements when looking at arcanite lists, but I'll set out some of my thinking on the subject.

Tzaangors want an arcanite hero, and naturally match with a tzaangor shaman for the summoning to limit attrition. Tzaangor shaman naturally fits with a unit of skyfires. Once you have the tzaangor and skyfires, it's worth considering alter-kin or tzaangor coven (both are still reasonably well priced battalions).  I'm liking alter-kin plus shaman these days as a relatively cheap block, but having the a shaman, a unit of skyfires and a unit of enlightened on discs gives you a lot of speed that can win you objective games. 

If I want to spend 100-120 on a mage, Gaunt Summoner with familiars is the first one I reach for - his spell will limit the impact of your opponents hordes. 

Pink Horrors are the other route to get lots of magic - they're crazy value and do very well supported by big blocks of blue horrors and brimstone horrors.

Add those to a lord of change, you're already around 2000 pts. 

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2 hours ago, hobgoblinclub said:

OK dudes...one last roll of the dice, so you're not playing it wrong. Check out the photos - a Tzeentch list, retaining Tzeentch allegiance, which has Tzeentch marauders and some non-tzeenchian allies.

 

What you posted is exactly what we've been saying:

You're using "Grand Alliance:Chaos" with "Allegiance: Tzeentch"

The question that your example brings up is actually:

"Does a "Faction: Grand Alliance" Army have the ability to use Allies and not loose an Allegiance, or is the example a bug in the Azyr app?"

If the example is accurate and Grand Alliance Chaos Allies are a thing, then there isn't a real reason to take a faction army for Chaos if one isn't Skaven.

Has anyone actually seen any reference to Grand Alliance Armies taking Allies?

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GA armies dont use allies due to their lack of allegiance and using anything and everthing from the GA. Ive seen discussions about his from every GA. The only way allies apply is if your a factional allegiance.

If you want to stay Tzeentch but include allies then thats fine. Now if you want to take a LoC in a army with clanrats, chaos warriors, and bloodletters....allegiance chaos and therefore doesnt have or take allies.  Only time the allies rules comes into play is when you dont want to break factional allegiance    

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10 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

Would Sayl be able to be allied with a Tzeentch army as he is Slaves to Darkness? He'd be a great asset for a StD Fatesworn list.

Allies are referencing faction lists, so for the same reason Slaves to Darkness units with the tzeentch keyword aren't Disciples of Tzeentch, Sayl isn't a Slaves to Darkness unit despite the presence of the Slaves to Darkness keyword in his profile.

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14 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

The question is "Can a Faction:Grand Allegiance Army Ally with itself?"

(So ... I heard you like Grand Allegiances, So I Grand Allegianced Your Grand Allegiance.... [heard from the Azyr app])

It doesnt need to...is there a matched play GA profile list? With a list of approved allies?

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1 hour ago, TheOtherJosh said:

What you posted is exactly what we've been saying:

You're using "Grand Alliance:Chaos" with "Allegiance: Tzeentch"

The question that your example brings up is actually:

"Does a "Faction: Grand Alliance" Army have the ability to use Allies and not loose an Allegiance, or is the example a bug in the Azyr app?"

If the example is accurate and Grand Alliance Chaos Allies are a thing, then there isn't a real reason to take a faction army for Chaos if one isn't Skaven.

Has anyone actually seen any reference to Grand Alliance Armies taking Allies?

A grand alliance army wouldn't be able to take allies as it has all of the available units in the grand alliance available to it. Unless you mean something else? 

 

42 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

The question is "Can a Faction:Grand Allegiance Army Ally with itself?"

(So ... I heard you like Grand Allegiances, So I Grand Allegianced Your Grand Allegiance.... [heard from the Azyr app])

This sounds like baiting. Please try to avoid a mocking tone in your posts. 

 

45 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

Would Sayl be able to be allied with a Tzeentch army as he is Slaves to Darkness? He'd be a great asset for a StD Fatesworn list.

Yes he can mate. He can't join the Fatesworn Warband itself as he can't be marked Tzeentch; he can join a Tzeentch army as a StD ally though. 

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7 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Ok on to list building time! Who can help me with a list involving a LoC, Tzaangors, and lots of magic?

I have 2 lists I am looking to try.

1.

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Trait: Magical Supremacy
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Tzaangor Shaman (160)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Gaunt Summoner (120)
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
20 x Tzaangors (360)
- 4x Pair of Savage Blade
- 8x Savage Greatblade
- 8x Savage Blade & Arcanite Shield

Units
30 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 2000/2000

8 spells a turn with that list, with a Balewind in reserve (most likely for the GS). Dropping the Balewind to cap out the Tzaangor unit is also an option.

2.
Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Trait: Magical Supremacy
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Gaunt Summoner (120)
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
40 x Kairic Acolytes (360)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
- 4x Pair of Savage Blade
- 8x Savage Greatblade
- 8x Savage Blade & Arcanite Shield

Units
30 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
30 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (100)

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 2000/2000

 
144 total bodies on the table (multiple of 9 :) ) and retains the 8 spells per turn. Mostly giving up the quality of the 6 skyfires for the quantity of 40 acolytes and 20 more horrors. Also trading the Shaman for The Changeling for some shenanigans.
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Looking good. Have you thought about leaving the blue and brimstone horrors off the table? I've found them far more effective when you use them to tie up enemy units when splitting pinks. They're great at blocking planned charges or protecting vital units, which would otherwise become exposed. Even after the FAQ, which stops you conga lining then, they're still very useful. That same FAQ states that the starting unit size is always counted as ten models, even if you only split four, or six, or whatever. It's a no-brainer for me. It also has the added bonus of reducing your drops during deployment. 

Other than that, I think you'll miss the range without skyfires in the list. That said, I've never run Acolytes. 40 of them could be useful in the new battleplans like Total Conquest, which allow units if 20+ men to grab objectives over smaller units. 

 

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35 minutes ago, shadowgra said:

Why not doing a list with 2*30 tzaangors?

With massive regiments you get a good discount, they are 120 wounds total, they hit like a truck and are fairly tanky if buffed

Painting 60 Tzaangors would be a real challenge imho! :)

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11 hours ago, hobgoblinclub said:

A grand alliance army wouldn't be able to take allies as it has all of the available units in the grand alliance available to it. Unless you mean something else? 

 

This sounds like baiting. Please try to avoid a mocking tone in your posts. 

 

Yes he can mate. He can't join the Fatesworn Warband itself as he can't be marked Tzeentch; he can join a Tzeentch army as a StD ally though. 

Well if that's the case then I think I'll be going for this list as a decent all rounder.

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Chaos Lord On Daemonic Mount (140)
- General
- Trait: Incorporeal Form 
- Artefact: Paradoxical Shield 
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (160)
- Runestaff
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (120)
- Artefact: Souldraught 
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond
Sayl The Faithless (120)
Exalted Standard Bearer (80) - the old one as my club allows all compendium stuff
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
5 x Chaos Knights (160)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
5 x Chaos Knights (160)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
36 x Chaos Marauders (200)
- Axes & Shields
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
9 x Chaos Warriors (180)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
9 x Chaos Warriors (180)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
3 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (300)
- War Flail
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
Fatesworn Warband (100)
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 2000/2000

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8 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum

I see this guy in a lot of lists and wonder what it is people are doing to get the most out of him? Is it that he heals a wound each turn? From the wording of the spell 'set up a new unit' it didn't look like he could add models back to pink/blues/brims but maybe I'm wrong about that? 

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14 minutes ago, Gilby said:

I see this guy in a lot of lists and wonder what it is people are doing to get the most out of him? Is it that he heals a wound each turn? From the wording of the spell 'set up a new unit' it didn't look like he could add models back to pink/blues/brims but maybe I'm wrong about that? 

He hits like a truck in Melee, his spell is a variation on Arcane Bolt and with Infusion Arcanum he becomes an even more of a pain in melee. At 5 damage (and infusion Arcanum) everything is hitting and wounding on 2+ For a max damage output base of 16. 

And he synergizes well with both Acolytes and Tzaangor.

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5 hours ago, hobgoblinclub said:

Looking good. Have you thought about leaving the blue and brimstone horrors off the table? I've found them far more effective when you use them to tie up enemy units when splitting pinks. They're great at blocking planned charges or protecting vital units, which would otherwise become exposed. Even after the FAQ, which stops you conga lining then, they're still very useful. That same FAQ states that the starting unit size is always counted as ten models, even if you only split four, or six, or whatever. It's a no-brainer for me. It also has the added bonus of reducing your drops during deployment. 

Other than that, I think you'll miss the range without skyfires in the list. That said, I've never run Acolytes. 40 of them could be useful in the new battleplans like Total Conquest, which allow units if 20+ men to grab objectives over smaller units. 

 

Well, if I hold them in reserve, I end up losing 20 bodies as they would cost 50 points more. And I can still use them to tie up enemies and block charges, I just have to do it as if they were chaff/bubble wrap, rather than a tarpit.

I know I will miss the range Sky fires have, but I am hoping that I will have so much table presence, that it will almost make up for their absence.

 

5 hours ago, shadowgra said:

Why not doing a list with 2*30 tzaangors?

With massive regiments you get a good discount, they are 120 wounds total, they hit like a truck and are fairly tanky if buffed

I only own 20 atm, and even that took forever for me to paint. The idea is appealing game wise, just not money and hobby wise for me presently. Especially since after painting 81 Tzeentch models, I still have over 100 to go, on top of a pile of Malifaux figures, 9K points of Stormcasts, and 156 model from The Other Side KS coming in December.

But a potential list might look like:
 

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
Tzaangor Shaman (160)
Gaunt Summoner (120)
Lord Of Change (300)

Battleline
30 x Tzaangors (450)
30 x Tzaangors (450)
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Axes
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

Units
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 2000/2000

 
56 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

He hits like a truck in Melee, his spell is a variation on Arcane Bolt and with Infusion Arcanum he becomes an even more of a pain in melee. At 5 damage (and infusion Arcanum) everything is hitting and wounding on 2+ For a max damage output base of 16. 

And he synergizes well with both Acolytes and Tzaangor.

Even better, its a better and easier to cast version of Bolt of Tzeentch, D6 Mortal Wounds, and only on a 7. Then when he charges he does D3 more MWs.

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2 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Well, if I hold them in reserve, I end up losing 20 bodies as they would cost 50 points more. And I can still use them to tie up enemies and block charges, I just have to do it as if they were chaff/bubble wrap, rather than a tarpit.

True. I didn't even notice they benefit from a massive regiments points reduction to be honest as I always use them as reinforcements now. 

I get that the theory is the same and you can try to bubble wrap. Being able to split them is super powerful though. Even post-FAQ, that 6" bubble really allows for some shenanigans. 

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