Mirage8112 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 10 hours ago, Arkiham said: @Mirage8112 In your explanations of skyfires and enlightened, You're saying that enlightened do more damage on the return, does that take into account lost models an such ? They'll crush a unit I've garnered but don't they also have a large potential of being crushed by these big/deadly units you throw them into? All good questions. in order to better illustrate how this works. I've made some diagrams so you can see how the positioning works out. It should answer all your questions. Let's your running a squad of 10 acolytes and 3 enlightened. I'll also assume there's a Tzaangor shaman nearby. You move up the board to threaten a big scary melee unit; say 20 bloodletters, stacking 2 bloodsecrator buffs, and +2 to hit (+1 from the general, and +1 from being 20 models strong.) Let's also say you take some arcane bolt shooting at the bloodletters but you either fail your rolls, or they make all their saves. On your opponents turn, he moves them into range for a short charge. You would expect the board to look something like this with the red bubbles representing bloodletters, the blue representing Acoyltes with equipment, and the white representing Tzaangor Enlightened on disks (I've included the Shaman in the diagram for thoroughness): Because of the formation of the acolytes, they can't feasibly charge the enlightened; it's just too far to go around the Acolytes. So, rather than take a charge next turn, your opponent opts to charge and take out the acolytes. 20 bloodletters with +2 to hit and 3 attacks apiece will put out on average 41 wounds before saves (24 of them mortal wounds). Unless you are really really good at rolling the 6+ ward save from the acolyte's shields, they're pretty much going to be wiped out to a man. After your opponent resolves his attacks and saves, you can expect the board to look like this: Clean sweep of the acolytes. However, because the Enlightened were positioned 2.5" from the the front lines, they are able to pile in and attack as well. They are also get their rerolls since the bloodletters have already been chosen to attack, and they also get their +1 to hit from the shaman who is about 7" away. 3 enlightened with rerolls can expect to do on average 19 wounds before saves. Bloodletters have a natural 5+ save, so after saves are rolls, they can expect to take 15-16 causalities (blue x's). Even with bravery 10 and rolling a 2 for battleshock, they'd still lose an addition 8 models if they had them. But they don't. so the remaining 3-4 flee from battleshock (green x's), leaving the table looking something like this: That's a massive win. I've chosen to illustrate this tactic with bloodletters only because a unit of 20 buffed up properly is quite scary, but the results with any melee-focused unit is relatively the same; ironguts, retributors, kurnoth hunters you name it. In a small game, a 10 man acolyte unit and 3 tzaangor enlightened are plenty killy enough without needing to add models to those units. in 2k point match, I'd double the unit sizes just to be on the safe side. So to answer your question: yes I factored the opponents attacks into the math, but it doesn't really matter because they can't get close enough to the Enlightened to do anything noteworthy. There are a few variations on positioning for this tactic depending on what enemy your facing, (flyers, ranged units ect ect) but the core concept it pretty much the same. Incidentally, if you tried this with a unit of 3 skyfires, they'd just get slaughtered. Enlightened work best in the opposing players turn because you only get your rerolls if you attack after your opponent. Skyfires only get their rerolls if you attack before your opponent. Ergo, if you tried to use 3 skyfires to charge the block above in your turn, you'd only put out 10 wounds after saves and still have to face 10 bloodletters swinging back at you. If you happened to ****** off the dice gods and roll low for your disk attacks you'd only do 6-7 wounds after saves. It'd be a massacre. 10 hours ago, Arkiham said: Would it be better to say charge 6 skyfires in and 6 enlightened, obviously this is obviously more models but it sounds like a very potent killing squad, maybe more so than 2 units of the same warscroll? Logic would say the enlightened will be targeted by the opposing activation but then you protect them with mystic shield etc to mitigate the damage. I'd actually say no. The reason being that in order to use that combo, you'd have to charge with both units (charging is the only way to get rerolls on your skyfires since they must attack before your opponent). If your skyfires didn't wipe out the target unit for whatever reason, your opponent could activate the charged unit and wipe out your enlightened (they charged as well, since it's the only way to get into combat in your turn). Even with mystic shield, Enlighted are not terribly survivable. Especially agains the kind of targets you would want to hunt with this combo. Furthermore, if the skyfires did wipe out the target unit, then there's not really a good reason to bring enlightened along. Both of these units (Skyfires and Enlightened) are glass cannons. They hit hard, but shatter if they get hit back. You can mitigate some of this with proper placement, but it's important to consider they are at there best when things happen in a certain order. You can control that with the strategy described above and turn an "average" unit (Acolytes for example) into bait for a killing machine. 17 hours ago, Killax said: 3. Skyfires do this really well, making them equiped well for any meta. They are foolproof once you start hunting oppossing key pieces, often Heroes. Now with that in mind you dont have to play them. It depends on your mindset and aim. Using them will lead to great result because they are likely undercosted. I would hesitate to call skyfires foolproof. They are very good, no doubt, but I think their major sweep of the top tourney spots has as to do with when the they arrived on the scene. Nobody was prepared for them and so hadn't planned any sort of counter. Both of these units (Skyfires and Enlightened) are glass cannons; they hit hard, but shatter if they get hit back. Generally speaking, "undercosted" is code for "I don't know how to counter this unit." It's important to remember that in order to be really effective for hunting, players took them in packs of 9. 9 skyfires is 480 points, and that's not exactly cheap. Sure, they put out a metric F#$kton of wounds, but only under optimum conditions. 9 will do ~40 wounds before saves (with average rolls). Lose their rerolls (by getting caught off guard by a charge) or roll badly for their disk attacks (1 in 3 chance) and all you have is a a very squishy unit doing just slightly above average damage. I can think of a few ways to counter both Skyfires and Enlightened, but the strategy is really going to vary from army to army and list to list. Regardless of what army you play, if you haven't thought about what you would do if you showed up at a tourney and saw a bunch across the table from you you're in for a bad time. But really, that goes for Kunnin' Rukk, Husktusk spam and the mixed order Kurnoth Hunter+ Hurricanium "Rain of death". If your unprepared: you're gonna have a bad time. 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santiel Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 On 2017-05-26 at 4:24 PM, HMB said: sorry i copied the WRONG (and the old, useless, and weak) roster. This is the right one: Allegiance: TzeentchLeadersChaos Lord On Daemonic Mount (140)- Artefact: Paradoxical Shield - Mark of Chaos: TzeentchLord Of Chaos (100)- Mark of Chaos: TzeentchGaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars(120)- Lore of Fate: Shield of FateOgroid Thaumaturge (160)- Lore of Fate: Treacherous BondLord Of Change (300)- General- Trait: Incorporeal Form - Artefact: Cursed Ichor - Lore of Change: Bolt of TzeentchBattleline5 x Chaos Knights (200)- Ensorcelled Weapons- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch- Slaves to Darkness Battleline20 x Chaos Warriors (360)- Hand Weapon & Shield- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (100)- Javelin & Shield- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch- Slaves to Darkness Battleline20 x Kairic Acolytes (280)Units1 x Chaos Spawn (60)1 x Chaos Spawn (60)BattalionsFatesworn Warband (120)Total: 2000/2000 I really like the idea of this. Im aining for a Fatesworn Warband but 1000p is the first start, how would ppl build such a list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 10 hours ago, santiel said: I really like the idea of this. Im aining for a Fatesworn Warband but 1000p is the first start, how would ppl build such a list? You can't, too many units required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santiel Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 13 hours ago, Arkiham said: You can't, too many units required. Oh i know that. Im talking pre-fatesworn. I want to play mortal Tzeentch. Just a question of how to maximize them as tzeentch before you reach fatesworn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 1 hour ago, santiel said: Oh i know that. Im talking pre-fatesworn. I want to play mortal Tzeentch. Just a question of how to maximize them as tzeentch before you reach fatesworn? Spells an items from DoT book I guess, fate dice also Lord on demonic mount, spell casters, gorebeasts etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southerngate Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Has anyone tried a all Flaming chariot as battleline mix? Heres what Im thinking Herald on Burning Chariot General LOC Changeling 3 Burning Chariots (battleline) 2 Burning Chariot (battleline) 2 Burning Chariot (battleline) 1 Exalted Flamer 1 Unit Blue Horrors Warflame host and Eternal Conflagration Basically you can throw the flamers across the board with summoning and control movement with the blues and changeling. You get a chance at Mortals from every flamer from the warpflame host, but its really about having all of them charge through the other guys army and shoot them before they have a shot chance to do anything scary. 42, 4+ 3+ D3 from the chariots on shooting is 21 W on average, plus D3 potential mortals per shot. D3 on a 4+ mortals from flying over troops, then you pile on a a monster and get as many d3 wounds as possible with skysharks. Plus whatever the herald, LOC and Exalted flamer does. It isnt going to last long if he hits you back, but its going to be the funniest setup of all time. Alternately I have been considering dropping the Eternal Conflagration and warpflame host, splitting up the charriot units into singles, and doing a change host, drop the changeling into their lines and then use the switch to plop 3 burning chariots there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherJosh Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 ... Alternately I have been considering dropping the Eternal Conflagration and warpflame host, splitting up the charriot units into singles, and doing a change host, drop the changeling into their lines and then use the switch to plop 3 burning chariots there.The issue is placement of your first model with the chariot having a much larger base than the Changeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherJosh Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (Deleted due to duplicate post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southerngate Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 That's a good point, I cant find a good tzeentch move-boost. The first way seems best. This is an oddball strategy, probably only works the first time if it does at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 Quote Has anyone tried a all Flaming chariot as battleline mix? Heres what Im thinking They are abysmal. You need 6 Exalted Flamers or Chariots for the Battalion - it's hopeless. They are so squishy and don't do enough damage for the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan.Ford Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Burning Chariots are so over costed for 6 wounds. 160 points Flamers unit 6 wounds. 200 points All overcosted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Southerngate said: Has anyone tried a all Flaming chariot as battleline mix? Heres what Im thinking Herald on Burning Chariot General LOC Changeling 3 Burning Chariots (battleline) 2 Burning Chariot (battleline) 2 Burning Chariot (battleline) 1 Exalted Flamer 1 Unit Blue Horrors Warflame host and Eternal Conflagration Basically you can throw the flamers across the board with summoning and control movement with the blues and changeling. You get a chance at Mortals from every flamer from the warpflame host, but its really about having all of them charge through the other guys army and shoot them before they have a shot chance to do anything scary. 42, 4+ 3+ D3 from the chariots on shooting is 21 W on average, plus D3 potential mortals per shot. D3 on a 4+ mortals from flying over troops, then you pile on a a monster and get as many d3 wounds as possible with skysharks. Plus whatever the herald, LOC and Exalted flamer does. It isnt going to last long if he hits you back, but its going to be the funniest setup of all time. Alternately I have been considering dropping the Eternal Conflagration and warpflame host, splitting up the charriot units into singles, and doing a change host, drop the changeling into their lines and then use the switch to plop 3 burning chariots there. I wouldn't too concerned seeing that tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Going to a tournament this weekend. I am expecting two Hunter spam Sylvaneth lists, and a Tusk/Stonehorn list to show up. I think I might give my first swing with the changehost (though I am missing models such as the Blue Scribes which seem to be a popular choice with it). So, using what I have I am thinking of something along the lines of: Allegiance: DoTHeroesLord Of Change (300)- General- Trait: Magical Supremacy - Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might - Lore of Change: Bolt of TzeentchOgroid Thaumaturge (160)- Lore of Fate: Infusion ArcanumTzaangor Shaman (120)- Lore of Fate: Shield of FateGaunt Summoner (100)- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the FutureBattleline10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)- Lore of Change: Fold Reality10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation20 x Tzaangors (360)- 4x Pair of Savage Blade- 8x Savage Greatblade- 8x Savage Blade & Arcanite ShieldUnits10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (320)BattalionsChangehost of Tzeentch (60)Total: 1970/2000 Other models of note I have are a 2nd LoC, Herald on foot and Disk, Changeling, 2nd Shaman, Chaos Sorcerer Lord, and Vortex Beast. What do you guys think? Also of note, our TO has ruled that rolls to determine how many Mortal Wounds are caused are not damage rolls, and therefore Destiny Dice may not be used. Also all random values must be rolled for individually as the hints and tips section is not part of the main rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Looks alright, alot of bodies. Good board blocking plenty if spells, you may want a duplicate of bolt of Tzeentch somewhere as its a strong spell which is missed when gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I've really been considering the burning chariot more for monster killing. Yeah it's going to die after but good chances of killing what ever you're sending it into thus making it's points back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 Quote I've really been considering the burning chariot more for monster killing. Yeah it's going to die after but good chances of killing what ever you're sending it into thus making it's points back No. Just don't do it. The shooting is meh (4+ to hit, no rend) and short ranged at that. Also its shooting is better split up at multiple targets as each model can generate D3 mortal wounds on multiple units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 20 minutes ago, Nico said: No. Just don't do it. The shooting is meh (4+ to hit, no rend) and short ranged at that. Also its shooting is better split up at multiple targets as each model can generate D3 mortal wounds on multiple units. More the melee combat profile. 6 attacks doing d3 damage on top of shooting. I've not done the math but the shooting and melee has got to be decent enough to threaten some monsters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 Here's a painting update on my Kairos/LoC: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santiel Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Question: Can you have Alliegence to Tzeentch and still run the Fatesworn warband? It seems impossible in Azyr to do that but saw a previous list here that had tha combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasman Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Absolutely, as long as all units in the warband have the Tzeentch keyword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santiel Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 29 minutes ago, Tasman said: Absolutely, as long as all units in the warband have the Tzeentch keyword. Perfect. Azyr is starting to drive me nuts with these kind of things. How is Fatesworn doing at the moment? I know its not in the top but is it competable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Well now I need a new list. TO just ruled that each unit can only move once via Changehost. Makes it far less tempting imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasman Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 15 hours ago, santiel said: Perfect. Azyr is starting to drive me nuts with these kind of things. How is Fatesworn doing at the moment? I know its not in the top but is it competable? Well, it depends on certain factors, i.e. your opponent, the scenario, dice. It IS a dice game after all, but overall, I'd say that its competitive. I just don't think it's particularly top tier. Not much synergy is available. Unless you bring Archaon. Then you can get all kinds of cool combos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorseOnABeachBall Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 On 6/22/2017 at 9:36 PM, AverageBoss said: Going to a tournament this weekend. I am expecting two Hunter spam Sylvaneth lists, and a Tusk/Stonehorn list to show up. I think I might give my first swing with the changehost (though I am missing models such as the Blue Scribes which seem to be a popular choice with it). So, using what I have I am thinking of something along the lines of: Allegiance: DoTHeroesLord Of Change (300)- General- Trait: Magical Supremacy - Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might - Lore of Change: Bolt of TzeentchOgroid Thaumaturge (160)- Lore of Fate: Infusion ArcanumTzaangor Shaman (120)- Lore of Fate: Shield of FateGaunt Summoner (100)- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the FutureBattleline10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)- Lore of Change: Fold Reality10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation20 x Tzaangors (360)- 4x Pair of Savage Blade- 8x Savage Greatblade- 8x Savage Blade & Arcanite ShieldUnits10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (320)BattalionsChangehost of Tzeentch (60)Total: 1970/2000 Other models of note I have are a 2nd LoC, Herald on foot and Disk, Changeling, 2nd Shaman, Chaos Sorcerer Lord, and Vortex Beast. What do you guys think? Also of note, our TO has ruled that rolls to determine how many Mortal Wounds are caused are not damage rolls, and therefore Destiny Dice may not be used. Also all random values must be rolled for individually as the hints and tips section is not part of the main rules. Hey bud, I was your third round opponent! good game , may the destiny dice always fall in your favor . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santiel Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 On 2017-05-26 at 4:24 PM, HMB said: sorry i copied the WRONG (and the old, useless, and weak) roster. This is the right one: Allegiance: TzeentchLeadersChaos Lord On Daemonic Mount (140)- Artefact: Paradoxical Shield - Mark of Chaos: TzeentchLord Of Chaos (100)- Mark of Chaos: TzeentchGaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars(120)- Lore of Fate: Shield of FateOgroid Thaumaturge (160)- Lore of Fate: Treacherous BondLord Of Change (300)- General- Trait: Incorporeal Form - Artefact: Cursed Ichor - Lore of Change: Bolt of TzeentchBattleline5 x Chaos Knights (200)- Ensorcelled Weapons- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch- Slaves to Darkness Battleline20 x Chaos Warriors (360)- Hand Weapon & Shield- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (100)- Javelin & Shield- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch- Slaves to Darkness Battleline20 x Kairic Acolytes (280)Units1 x Chaos Spawn (60)1 x Chaos Spawn (60)BattalionsFatesworn Warband (120)Total: 2000/2000 Just a question. Isnt this list invalid? If im not mistaken you cant have knights or horsemen as battline since the whole army isnt slaves? Or am i missing something here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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