Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Kuma]

So the changeling's rule is: 

Arch-deceiver: At the start of the battle, you CAN set up the Changeling in your opponent’s territory as though it were part of their army.  Enemy units treat it as part of their own army – they can move within 3" of it but they cannot target it with spells or attacks, and so on. If it attacks, casts or unbinds a spell, or is within 3" of an enemy Hero in your opponent’s hero phase, it is revealed and this ability no longer has an effect.

 

So you CAN set it up in your opponents territory as part of their army. Dont have to. rest of the rules follow after period, so still works. Additionally, since my list was one drop, I will either (a. Go first, switching him out before reveal, or (B. Go second, but get to see where the opponent drops his characters first, or (c. deploy in my zone and swap out as normal!

[RoloMcFury]

It definitely makes Changeling all but unplayable in a non-Changehost list though. Although I don't think it's worth its points outside of Changehosts, even if every ruling goes its way.

[Nico]

The debate is whether "as though it were part of their army" is intended to qualify the term "territory" (if it does, then this creates an incredibly confusing rule - it doesn't say "in accordance with the set-up rules for the Battleplan, which would have been clear). I have always taken this wording to be describing the rule in general terms, rather than determining where the Changeling deploys.

To be viable, the Changeling either needs to be deployed in the territory or it needs to be deployed after every other Warscroll. Otherwise it's trivial to counter and DoT are left with even fewer options for matched play (since Changehost/Hosts Duplicitous is by far the best thing in the Daemon third of the army and it relies on the Changeling). 

[Vaz84]

Could we get a "how to play changehost" from someone? Lists are good, but how to use and aim the units would be invaluable to many of us I suspect.

Or just cover both it and Host Duplicitous together.

 

I think many people have an understanding of Tgors, Shaman, Skyfires... But how to play the host, manage your horrors and horror proliferation would be all very useful to know.

[ssharkus]

Guys, does Daemon Cohort of Tzeentch Vagaries of Fate ability counts as summon mechanic, i.e. i need to pay points to return my units?

[Goodwin]

Hm, well, the "as if its part of their army" is an annoyance.  You could say that even though you treat it as part o their army, it is still your army.  The setup portion states that units can be set up in their territory 12" from an enemy territory.  You don't have enemy territory if you are setting up in the enemy territory.  You only have your own territory, and then enemy territory that you can now deploy in.

I'm fairly certain the setup portion of the scenarios doesn't say anything about a deployment zone.  Its just stay 12" from enemy territory.  So you can set up in their territory without the caveat of needing to be 12" away from anyone?

Does that help the arguement at all?

[RoloMcFury]

3 hours ago, Vaz84 said:

Could we get a "how to play changehost" from someone? Lists are good, but how to use and aim the units would be invaluable to many of us I suspect.

Or just cover both it and Host Duplicitous together...

I can break down some of my limited experience thus far. I'll start with a recent deployment, against a double-Saurus Seraphon army, playing Take and Hold:

The Changeling ended up placed directly behind the big building, within the crucial 27" of the LoC (blue one). In fact, every unit within the army is within 27" of Changehost LoC. Taking turn 1 (one drop!), I swapped it out with some Pinks, which I strung along as much as I could- you're allowed to place the rest of the unit within 9" of the original swapped model. I used my other swap to basically get a free 9" move out of my other two pink horror squads. I also advanced the rest of my army:

I won't go into a full-on battle report in the middle of a thread, but I'll go ahead and say it was a very easy win. My opponent only had good damage in the melee phase, which prevented him from killing more than one layer of the Pink-Blue-Brimstone madness per turn, because they are generated at the end of the phase and can be placed flexibly.  This mitigates a lot of the risk of getting double-turned, because the bulk of your opponent's army is locked down in melee. A list that can put out wounds in the hero, shooting, AND melee phases would be a tough match for this tactic as a result. Fortunately, you've hopefully got a LoC with a 27" 2d6 +1 (taking the higher number on both) unbind, really only leaving the odd effect or two for hero phase damage. 

Here are a few general tips I've picked up playing the Dupe Host so far:

-If your Changeling ends up out of range of the Changehost LoC you CAN swap the LoC closer first, enabling that range. I say this because of how ambiguous/hotly debated the Changeling's deployment rules are. Obviously, setting them up within range of each other is easier and lets you move two other units for free turn 1. This LoC swap will be crucial if playing Escalation.

-Assuming all rulings go against the Changeling's deployment, I'd advise setting it up in a straight line 27" in front of your LoC, somewhere in the middle of your opponent's side of the board. Also, be sure to string out your number of "drops" to be the number your opponent has minus 1- no reason to commit your whole force at once if they still have many drops to go. In this way, you can buy some time to see the best place to set up the Changeling initially.

-Play the mission! This list is very strong in terms of getting quickly setup on objectives. I had a recent game of Border War, where I was able to teleport a squad of Pinks directly on top of my opponent's 4 point objective. Sure, they got pummeled in the ensuing melee phase, but that just left Blues, giving me an enormous lead on the objectives.

-I haven't discussed dealing damage to your opponent's army yet, but the sources should be pretty obvious: lots and lots of spells. I'm a big proponent of taking a Herald of Tzeentch in such lists. He can use the Balewind turn 1 (swapping if need be), and shoot out two different D6 MW spells (profile spell + Bolt of Tzeentch) on first turn, shutting down any crucial characters. Obviously, this is hampered a bit if the ruling on MW/Destiny Dice is against us, but I'm confident the inevitable FAQ will go our way here. A Gaunt Summoner can also use a Balewind to deliver its potent profile spell if you're facing a horde of some sort (hello Kunnin Rukk!). 

-If you're up against some alternate deployment style (Stormcast dropping in, for example), use your Pinks and Blues/Brimstones to screen the rest of your army, while setting up to take whatever mission objectives you're playing. 30 Pinks and at least 20 Blues or Brimstone make for some incredible bubble wrap.

[Vaz84]

Love to hear your expand further on your strategy. Right now I imagine you tank with the Pinks till they cant handle it, swap them out for Brim's if that is the case. Fold Reality if a unit is truly about to perish. 

[RoloMcFury]

15 hours ago, Vaz84 said:

Love to hear your expand further on your strategy. Right now I imagine you tank with the Pinks till they cant handle it, swap them out for Brim's if that is the case. Fold Reality if a unit is truly about to perish. 

I generally accept that the 10 Pink Horrors I swap with the Changeling are gonna bite the dust almost immediately. However, they'll spawn (at least) 10 Blue Horrors in the process, stuck in the same melee in your opponent's deployment zone. You have the option to either set them up more than 3" away from the opposing models (to serve as a roadblock when they move next turn) or slap them right next to the models in question- which will cause them to get attacked in the ensuing combat phase. It really depends on what I'm trying to lock down. For example, against anything flying and fast, I'll drop them right on top, so the opposing units can only retreat next turn (or stay in a pointless combat).

It's also easy to forget how good the Pink Horrors are at casting spells. They get a +2 to cast if within range of your LoC and a Horror hero.

I usually use the Brimstones to hold close objectives or give me more Changehost swapping opportunities. 

It's a very flexible list with a lot of moving parts. I'm sure there are tons of options I haven't explored yet.

[Tasman]

I've also been using the scribes.... on a good day you will end up knowing just about every spell on the table. Now, while they can only cast one spell, they can crank out damage, buff casting, ( re-rolls, plus giving +1 to horrors in the bargain if within 9")or folding reality. All this puts a big target on them, of course, but now that I see how the Changehost REALLY works, that's a little more manageable. I'm excited to try this out in my next game!

[Tasman]

On 1/22/2017 at 10:25 AM, Arkiham said:

A lot of people going straight for the Daemon list,  don't ignore those mortals, pretty much any wizard you want will be on a 2+, put them on a balewind for a 1+.

Even the combat focused Lords will be great, chaos lord on a manticore with a 2+ 5+(against mortal wounds ) as a back up hero will be great and for 300 points that is a sound investment.

I'll admit that I may have missed clarification of this, but how does this work? I'm not finding it.

[Nico]

Quote

Even the combat focused Lords will be great, chaos lord on a manticore with a 2+ 5+(against mortal wounds ) as a back up hero will be great and for 300 points that is a sound investment.

He is not in any way "combat focused" - he hits like a damp pillow. He is a joke compared to the Freeguild General on Griffin, which hits like a truck and has a 3+ save.

He does have good tanking ability with the Paradoxical Shield, but is a very marginal choice unless you're making full use of his command ability, which only works on Warriors of Chaos.

[Arkiham]

53 minutes ago, Tasman said:

I'll admit that I may have missed clarification of this, but how does this work? I'm not finding it.

Disciples of Tzeentch book

[Tasman]

8 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Disciples of Tzeentch book

Lol, I figured as much. Where am I finding this?

[Tasman]

Also, I'm a little confused by the two different renditions of Tzeentch's firestorm..... One comes on the Lore of Change List, and the other is the Herald on Chariot's sig spell. Can they both be cast on the same turn? They are different spells, but share the same name.

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I may have missed it while wading thru 54 pages of this thread.....

[Nico]

I think there are now two Aetherstrike Forces now as well - a SCE one and a KO one. Overload!

[Arkiham]

44 minutes ago, Tasman said:

Lol, I figured as much. Where am I finding this?

Items and traits. 

[Tasman]

Thank you.

[Vaz84]

I suppose my only fear in the changehost is having the LOC sniped hard. Paradox shield does give him some insulation. + a chaos sorceror lord and the LOC is a tanking machine. However that takes 140 away what could be more horrors.

Interesting list though! Basically clog the battlefield with horrors while the casters lawn mow through units with mortal wounds?

[Tokyo Nift]

4 hours ago, Vaz84 said:

I suppose my only fear in the changehost is having the LOC sniped hard. Paradox shield does give him some insulation. + a chaos sorceror lord and the LOC is a tanking machine. However that takes 140 away what could be more horrors.

Interesting list though! Basically clog the battlefield with horrors while the casters lawn mow through units with mortal wounds?

you can't give a lord of change the paradoxical shield, it's not for daemons.

[Vaz84]

Noted.

GW Canada finally got back in the blue scribes, so going to go ahead and finish the list. Just need one more set of blue horrors.

Anyone else have any opinions or strategy on the list. I feel this was really good discussion. 

[DarkBlack]

7 hours ago, Vaz84 said:

Noted.

GW Canada finally got back in the blue scribes, so going to go ahead and finish the list. Just need one more set of blue horrors.

Anyone else have any opinions or strategy on the list. I feel this was really good discussion. 

I would recommend converting from a burning chariot. Model can look better, is plastic (rather than finecast) and you get an exhalted flamer, herald, a blue horror, 2 screamers and the bits to build and extra disc too (for the same price).

[Vaz84]

Honestly with the way GW is behaving lately I want to give them my money >.<

I'm a sucker for orginal models, and converting from there. Will be changing the blue horrors around with updated versions. I've got extra Skyfire parts too for the disc. 

Does the named LOC qualify in changehost? Giving you that re-roll and another mortal wound spell is nice. Plus him knowing the blue scribes spells, lets you use him or the changing for the buff, and then have the scribes rip off some killer damage on a 2+.

[StokieRich]

Does anyone know if you can mix parts from the enlightened kit with the Tzaangor kit?

 

I was hoping to use a box to make a unit champion for my Tzaangor with 2h weapon and then maybe another to create a Tzaangor Magister. 

I was thinking I could then use those disks to create Cultist shaman and a fatemaster. 

Wondered if anyone had tried anything with the kits before I dived in? (bit nervous as I've not really done any converting before) 

[Tokyo Nift]

14 minutes ago, StokieRich said:

Does anyone know if you can mix parts from the enlightened kit with the Tzaangor kit?

 

I was hoping to use a box to make a unit champion for my Tzaangor with 2h weapon and then maybe another to create a Tzaangor Magister. 

I was thinking I could then use those disks to create Cultist shaman and a fatemaster. 

Wondered if anyone had tried anything with the kits before I dived in? (bit nervous as I've not really done any converting before) 

I think you actually can. But not 100% sure.