Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Mirage8112]

11 hours ago, Goodwin said:

Curseling isn't a named character, he used to be Vilitch, now he's just a generic Curseling..  There's a section in the book that lists the named characters and only Changeling and Kairos fit that bill.

Ah The "Cursling". For somer eason i read "changeling". I really shouldn't read these boards while I'm ill.  

[Malfallax]

Change of topic...

What about my favourite guy?

The Daemon Prince of Tzeench?

Any good?

Tactics to use him???

[Arkiham]

Combat. Spells are nice but not reliable.

Use as a distraction tbh 

[DrMarmalade]

On 3/9/2017 at 0:45 AM, Malakithe said:

Haha well this is the current form...

Lots of MW output as the LoC will have Arch-Sorcerer 

Hi. Where did you find the points for the Daemon Cohort of Tzeentch?

[Drillz]

what do you need for the daemon cohort of tzeentch and what does it give

[Nico]

Quote

What about my favourite guy?

The Daemon Prince of Tzeench?

Any good?

Tactics to use him???

You mean my old Kairos model which I foolishly acquired in anticipation back in December.

He is quite good as you can summon him in and give him a Lore Spell. Then another wizard can buff him with +1 attack on the -2 rend attack and Shield of Fate plus Mystic Shield perhaps. The points cost is decent.

Alternatively you can take it in the list and then give it Phantasmal Weapons for some super rend. He's a good use for those 4s and 3s in the Destiny Dice pool.

[Nico]

Quote

what do you need for the daemon cohort of tzeentch and what does it give

It basically gives you the ability to cast another spell for all your wizards in the Battalion (1 LoC/Daemon Prince 1 Herald and 3 Pinks). Potentially interesting. 

[Malakithe]

Here you go. I found it in the app with the points. It's in the waaaaay back of the Generals Handbook along with all the other old stuff. 

120pts might seemake like a lot. But don't confuse picking another spell with casting another spell. LoC can already cast 2 but the battalion gives him 3 cast attempts

[Nico]

I'm struggling to find justification for Kairos at 340 points:

• He cannot fit in any of the Battalions except the specific one that he is in (as Lord of Change is a unit name and not a keyword in the Battalions). This make it challenging to take him within either the Exalted Conflagration or the Hosts Duplicitous.
• He cannot take an artefact or a command trait. So no -2/-3 rend option for him.
• He doesn't have a command ability.
• He doesn't have an option for a shooting attack.
• Gift of Change is not only much worse than Gateway, but it also deteriorates as Kairos takes damage, which is even more painful.
• Oracle of Eternity has been understandably amended to no longer affect initiative rolls. It's still a powerful ability.
• He doesn't know the spells of enemy Wizards - only the friendly ones.
• In my practice game on Wednesday at the South London Legion - it was useful being able to cast Treacherous Bond. This meant he could run out in front as a tank into the face of a Khorne army and 5/6 of the damage would be dumped onto the 18 Marauders chilling behind him. This was handy when @davidslv managed to roll ten 4+ rolls in a row on the Spear of the Exalted Derpbringer (imagine if that was Foot of Gork - shudder...). However, Kairos's melee output was really dismal. He could also cast Infusion Arcanum, so he can hit on 3s, but he still only has rend -1.

I have spotted a couple of clever combos with him (above and beyond rigging Fold Reality on Skyfires or Enlightened), but would welcome further thoughts.

[redbeardboss]

5 hours ago, Nico said:

I'm struggling to find justification for Kairos at 340 points:

• He cannot fit in any of the Battalions except the specific one that he is in (as Lord of Change is a unit name and not a keyword in the Battalions). This make it challenging to take him within either the Exalted Conflagration or the Hosts Duplicitous.
• He cannot take an artefact or a command trait. So no -2/-3 rend option for him.
• He doesn't have a command ability.
• He doesn't have an option for a shooting attack.
• Gift of Change is not only much worse than Gateway, but it also deteriorates as Kairos takes damage, which is even more painful.
• Oracle of Eternity has been understandably amended to no longer affect initiative rolls. It's still a powerful ability.
• He doesn't know the spells of enemy Wizards - only the friendly ones.
• In my practice game on Wednesday at the South London Legion - it was useful being able to cast Treacherous Bond. This meant he could run out in front as a tank into the face of a Khorne army and 5/6 of the damage would be dumped onto the 18 Marauders chilling behind him. This was handy when @davidslv managed to roll ten 4+ rolls in a row on the Spear of the Exalted Derpbringer (imagine if that was Foot of Gork - shudder...). However, Kairos's melee output was really dismal. He could also cast Infusion Arcanum, so he can hit on 3s, but he still only has rend -1.

I have spotted a couple of clever combos with him (above and beyond rigging Fold Reality on Skyfires or Enlightened), but would welcome further thoughts.

 I see it the same way. He is not better than the regular lord of change. his once per game thing is strong though. you can use it on enemy dice rolls as well and i think besides fold reality thats where i would be looking to use it. enemy battle shock to a 6 if it means the whole unit runs away, failing a charge on something big and buffed when you know its your turn next. their once per game abilities. you could even stop a stormcast unit from setting up now that they roll a dice to deep strike in.

[Mirage8112]

 

6 hours ago, Nico said:

I'm struggling to find justification for Kairos at 340 points:

• He cannot fit in any of the Battalions except the specific one that he is in (as Lord of Change is a unit name and not a keyword in the Battalions). This make it challenging to take him within either the Exalted Conflagration or the Hosts Duplicitous.

Truthfully, the battalion make up of this book is very different from the other battletomes. Most of the meta-battalions that we would normally take for a single drop army don't look particularly promising for us in matched play. This is countered somewhat by the fact that we can take some of the smaller battalions and summon in additional units, effectively turning what would be a 4 drop army into a 1 drop army, with the 18" summoning mechanic basically giving a few units a free move. 

Basically, you could (in theory) take Kairos and one of the other battalions for a 2 drop army and just summon the rest of whatever demons you plan on taking. Also, it seems to me that unlike some of the newer battletomes (Sylvaneth and Stormcast in particular), The Demon side of a Disciples of Tzeentch army isn't totally dependent on first turn for success. In fact there area few lists I've been playing with that could feasibly go first or second in most match-ups and the list would perform more or less the same. 
 

6 hours ago, Nico said:

• He cannot take an artefact or a command trait. So no -2/-3 rend option for him.

Why in God's name would want to put him in CC? -2/-3 rend is a bit redundant when most of his damage generation is from spells and thus mortal wound output. 
 

6 hours ago, Nico said:

• He doesn't have a command ability.

This is true. It looks to me like he's really intended to be a uber-level support caster rather than the General. 
 

6 hours ago, Nico said:

• He doesn't have an option for a shooting attack.

Also true. I'll elaborate on this with a further point below. 
 

6 hours ago, Nico said:

• Gift of Change is not only much worse than Gateway, but it also deteriorates as Kairos takes damage, which is even more painful.

Yes. But, don't underestimate the frustration of setting up a charge, taking a few mortal wounds and having a spawn pop up in back of your that you are forced to clear or risk ruining the charge. It's also cheap as f#$k. 60pts is about as cheap as it gets. Get creative with your placement and it's a real spoiler. 
 

6 hours ago, Nico said:

• Oracle of Eternity has been understandably amended to no longer affect initiative rolls. It's still a powerful ability.
• He doesn't know the spells of enemy Wizards - only the friendly ones.
  
  ...
  
  I have spotted a couple of clever combos with him (above and beyond rigging Fold Reality on Skyfires or Enlightened), but would welcome further thoughts.

I think Kairos is really meant to be used in conjunction with a regular Lord of Change. When you look at them as a pair, they clock in at 640 pts. Only 20pts more than Alarielle. For that, they can cast 4 spells between them, Kairos will know both his and the regular LoC spell, (plus whatever extra spell you give each of them) You get a killer command ability that boosts both of their spell casting (their primary source of damage) and unbinding. The LoC can take Wellspring of arcane might that allows both Birds to reroll 1's. The regular LoC can also unbind enemy spells at 27" and if the unbind is more than 9 (good use of destiny dice in a key situation) Both the LoC AND Kairos learn that spell. Not to mention the Oracle of eternity basically guaranteeing you don't miss a pivotal dice roll for the one time the dice gods aren't with you. You can also get access to a shooting attack while still being able to keep Kairos back out of harms way. 

Between those two models you really can completely dominate both your magic phase and shut down the enemy's magic phase, since Mastery of Magic+ destiny dice basically takes probability out of the equation. 

I'm sort of looking at Kairos as necessary "half" of a really really good unit. 

[Nico]

You make some good points - but I'm thinking that in the back of your mind you're thinking about playing against Sylvaneth (which is one of DoT's good match ups because their unbinding becomes a big edge). 

My worry is playing in a fixed list, fixed Traits tournament - with the risk that perhaps 20% - 40% of your opponents across 6 games might not use magic more than just a cheeky Mystic Shield - having kings of casting/unbinding ceases to be necessary or is overkill.

Is Kairos plus a LoC better than two LoCs potentially including the Battalion buffs is perhaps the better question?

[Mirage8112]

53 minutes ago, Nico said:

You make some good points - but I'm thinking that in the back of your mind you're thinking about playing against Sylvaneth. 

My worry is playing in a fixed list, fixed Traits tournament - with the risk that perhaps 20% - 40% of your opponents across 6 games might not use magic more than just a cheeky Mystic Shield - having kings of casting/unbinding ceases to be necessary or is overkill.

As to Sylvaneth, for magic defense, yes. But generally speaking, no. The only command trait that really appeals to me for Demons other than Magical Supremacy is Aether Tether. I'm a firm believer that a general really shouldn't be in combat (certainly not without easy access to healing spells or a natural armor save of 3+), and the ability to shut down spells from that great of distance coupled with the ability to steal AND share them is just too good to pass up. 

Besides, as you've said so yourself:
 

On 12/30/2016 at 7:58 AM, Nico said:

mystic shield wins games

On the other hand, having such potentially devastating casting is useful every game, since an enemy that doesn't have the means to cast probably won't have the means to unbind either. I've always said that the best lists are ones that can compete in every phase of the game, or least dominate in 1-2. A Tzeentch themed faction really should consider the benefits of dominating the Hero phase; Casting is what we do baby! 

Casting-centric armies have a bad rap since the days of 7th edition, because it either works brutally well, or it doesn't work at all. We've all be on the receiving end of a bad roll, where we miss a casting/unbinding/dispelling roll by 1-2. With the Kiros/LoC combo, that really shouldn't happen. It's almost a guaranteed ranged mortal wound output machine. 

 

53 minutes ago, Nico said:

Is Kairos plus a LoC better than two LoCs potentially including the Battalion buffs is perhaps the better question?

I assume your talking about the Changehost component of the hosts duplicitous. I am not a fan. Scintillating simulacra is a very cool spell, but is useful only against death-stars, and does absolutely F$%^all vs. things like Kunnin Rukk, that rely on shot volume over accuracy. Vs an MSU list where damage output is spread-out across 4-5 units it loses a lot of effectiveness.

As I said above, a good list should either be able to compete in all phases of the game, (Hero, Movement, Shooting, Combat)* or dominate in 1-2.  *(Battleshock isn't exactly a phase but a combination of the first 4. Some units can compete in the battleshock phase, but most armies can't really build a strategy around it.) Being the Tzeentch army that we are, I don't really see the hosts Duplicitous competing well in every phase. The Deceive and dismay could potentially be fun, but it really seems to me like it's designed for combat-themed armies. Tz demons don't really have access to CC specialists or really anything that offers the massive punch needed to take advantage of that catapult. Catapults are cool, until you fill them with pillows....

We do have the means to compete in the shooting and hero phases though and (depending on tourney rulings and FAQ's) the "split" and "split again" rules give us a fairly cheap way to compete in the combat phase; not in wound output but in the ability to sustain a fair bit of damage without losing much. The problem with the Hosts duplicitous is that the battalion benefits aren't really designed to work with the phases we can dominate. 

As I said, a pure demon list has the ability to compete well in the Hero and shooting phases, and decently in the combat phases (provided you position smartly and the tourney organizers don't hate you.) but the magic "buffs" aren't really geared for damage output. (1's becoming 2's doesn't really benefit the LoC who can already match the lowest dice to highest, and if you roll double 1's, a 4 won't really cast anything. It's far better to take the re-roll 1's item rather than being roped into a useless battalion ability. The problems with the extra spell are outlined above)  

The ability to swap from the change host might be nice to say, put something in range to get some shooting off and then swap out something to take the inevitable charge, but both swaps have to happen in the hero phase, which means the units won't have the ability to do anything until the hero phase is over, and as I said before, A pure demon list doesn't really have access to incredibly hard hitting CC specialists. Barebones Host duplicitous is also 1730 pts (most of that cost is from the 2 LoC's). That's with 2 exalted flamers and 3 pink horrors to fill battleline. If you want to swap something immediately you'll need a changeling for another 140 points, leaving you only 130 points to fill out the list. That's not a lot of wiggle room. 

It seems to me that a LoC and Kairos can pretty much dominate the magic phase better than the Host duplicitous can (and for far less), and the battalion doesn't really offer anything significant for multiphase/single phase competitiveness for the points. 

 

53 minutes ago, Nico said:

The reason why a LoC is a possible melee combatant is that it is a source of -2 rend in circumstances where DoT have hardly any of that (not Archaon, none of the units) - Daemon Prince, LoC, Soul Grinder). You can make a LoC tanky by using Mystic Shield plus Shield of Fate.

You can use the butt of a screwdriver to hammer in a nail, that doesn't mean it's a hammer. Most units have defined primary roles with possible secondary roles that can step into if necessary. Yes, you could use a LoC in melee, but to me it seems as though thats trying to get a unit to compete in a role that it wasn't meant for. Opponent got a luck charge off? OK. He can hold on for a turn or two yes. But again, that doesn't mean you should put him there on purpose. Especially vs units that are CC specialists like Decimators or (God forbid) Wildwood Rangers/Stormcast Protectors... and also consider that you don't need -2 rend when their primary damage output is ranged mortal wounds (unless they get killed.)

[Malfallax]

Hello guys !

I just had my 1st game against my pal's Sylvaneth he used something like:
Treelord Ancient
Drycha (or whatever she is called)
Tree revenants x10
Dryads x10
Hunters x3
+Battalion that Boosts casting and gives access to a heal spell

I used:
Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
- Artefact: Pyrofyre Stave 
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Daemon Prince Of Tzeentch (160)
- General
- Axe
- Trait: Incorporeal Form - Tzeentch Daemon Hero
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (140)
- Runestaff
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation

Total: 1000/1000

First of all the DP is a beast .... I gave him Mystic Shield and Demonic Power and was freaking awesome... Killed the tree revenants and the Drycha in 2 combat phases before dying to Hunter fire.

The highlight of the game was a monster showdown where my LoC faced of against the Treelord Ancient...
He attacked 1st shooting some spells which I unbinded and then shot me with his 1 Attack staff which I saved with Destiny Dice.
Then I responded with 7 Mortal Wounds from Infernal Gateway and another 12 MW from a Tzeench Firestorm.

The Kurnoth Hunters teleported on the 1st round and sniped the Scribes on turn 1. Strong models and I m too scared when my pal buys more than 3.

Overall it was a very nice experience although a bit one sided

[Nico]

I agree - the LoC isn't going to be YOLOing in by any means. I see him as a counterpunch unit (so behind the Horror or mortal chaff/Battleline - particularly with his long reach) and a way to make use of the 4+s in your Destiny Dice (the hit rolls).

Yes - the Daemon Traits do look meh/only situationally strong in comparison to some of the Arcanite ones (let alone Sylvaneth ones). I think that is part of the problem - I'm used to building the army as a single drop army with various compelling choices. 

You got me on the mystic shield point. 

Simulacra is basically the Stonehorn Counter - especially as Battlebrew (after being drunk) - is a mandatory buff). You're right that it doesn't help vs Kunning Rukk (it basically mirrors the hits onto misses for them). That's where Infernal Flames comes in.

[Nico]

The LoC becomes much stronger at the 1,000 point and 500 point levels because the impact of Destiny Dice is bigger the fewer dice are rolled in the game.

One 6 mortal wound Spell or key save or long Bomb charge becomes more decisive.

[kozokus]

20 hours ago, Nico said:

The LoC becomes much stronger at the 1,000 point and 500 point levels because the impact of Destiny Dice is bigger the fewer dice are rolled in the game.

One 6 mortal wound Spell or key save or long Bomb charge becomes more decisive.

Good Old Thundertusk professor : "Listen to me noob, if you wanna be a 300 point woth Behemoth, you must deal 6 mortal wounds each turn."

Lord of Change ! "No problemo!" *cracks his fingers*

[Drillz]

daemon cohort of Tzeentch is really strong but is it better than the changehost?

[Leonardas]

Daemon cohort of Tzeentch is compendium and therefore we should not be using it (IMO)

changehost is the go to daemon battalion for sure

[Mirage8112]

7 hours ago, Leonardas said:

Daemon cohort of Tzeentch is compendium and therefore we should not be using it (IMO)

Sorry to be frank, but that's a baseless and silly attitude. 

[Leonardas]

Sorry to be frank, but that's a baseless and silly attitude. 

Seriously mate, please don't post that sort of reply on the TGA, that response was worthy of the old warhammer forum!

I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are yours. You clearly want to play compendium rules, that's fine. Take a leaf from my book and show me as much respect as I am showing you.

My viewpoint is valid; as far as I am concerned we have our new rules and should be using them. There are
so many good combos in this book and competitively we have not even scratched the surface. Let's look forwards and not backwards.




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[Mirage8112]

1 minute ago, Leonardas said:

Seriously mate, please don't post that sort of reply on the TGA, that response was worthy of the old warhammer forum!

I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are yours. You clearly want to play compendium rules, that's fine. Take a leaf from my book and show me as much respect as I am showing you.

My viewpoint is valid; as far as I am concerned we have our new rules and should be using them. There are
so many good combos in this book and competitively we have not even scratched the surface. Let's look forwards and not backwards.

 

Don't be so sensitive. If you think that post was worthy of Warseer, you obviously didn't spent much time on Warseer.... I didn't use the word noob, I didn't make fun of you or belittle you. Furthermore, I even prefaced my comment with the fact that I aware I was being especially frank.

Secondly, If you are entitled to your opinion, then I am certainly entitled to mine (as you said, but apparently don't support) my opinion is that your point of view is baseless, and well against the ethos of the game. Those compendium warscrolls were released with the game, and as such are as AoS as anything else is. It doesn't include any named characters from the old world, it also only includes units that are currently supported and in production. It also has been provided points for matched play AND it's currently supported by the Azyr army builder function of the AoS app. 

If you don't want to play it, don't include it in your list. But don't impose your opinions on people who may want to. 

[Leonardas]

But don't impose your opinions. 

Please follow your own advise


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[Mirage8112]

14 minutes ago, Leonardas said:

Please follow your own advise

I was. My "advice" had two parts. The first is below.
 

19 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

If you don't want to play it, don't include it in your list.

The second, was that you shouldn't tell people they can't play something that is a total legal legit part of the game.

9 hours ago, Leonardas said:

Daemon cohort of Tzeentch is compendium and therefore we should not be using it (IMO)

I stand by my statement that your opinion is baseless and silly, and if your so attached to your opinions that you can't stand criticism, you shouldn't be sharing them. Especially in a forum thread that is specifically about doing so. 

[DarkBlack]

Could we not have the compendium debate here, please.