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Afterlife & Souls


Oppenheimer

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So I'm confused as to where souls go when mortals die. Is there an afterlife? There are so many gods it seems like their should be.

It seems like we have heaven, hell and Hades represented.

I get that Stormcasts go to Sigmar to reforge, deamons go to the chaos realm. But what about mortal humans? Do they all go to Nagash? What about mortal chaos? Do they go to Nagash or to the chaos gods somehow? What about Fyreslayers? 

Also how do new mortals in the chaos realms come into the world? Where do those souls come from? I've never seen anything about a mortal chaos woman and yet there have been mortal chaos warriors for generations.

So confused. Anyone who's read more than me who can help explain?

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I'm going to type this up from memory/conjecture without referencing anything so you might want to cross check it but here goes:

I believe the souls of slain mortals in the AoS setting (bar those of aelves who go to Eldyra) go to Nagash's underworld. They might have previously gone to their own gods' (Morr, Gazul, ect) realms of the dead, but Nagash ate/usurped most of those during the End Times. How they get there and whether the undetworld is fully part of Shyish or just connected to it I don't know.

The parts of the Mortal Realms corrupted by Chaos are huge and I think it's safe to assume there are plenty of human tribes in the thrall of Chaos living there. Just because we haven't seen female Chaos Marauders or Blood Reavers doesn't mean they don't exist/pop out kids. When they get to Chaos Warrior level mortal champions not following Slaanesh probably loose the urge/ability to sire children, but the majority of the Dark Gods' followers will be relatively straightforward corrupted humans who might have a couple of interesting mutations like an extra hand or maybe very sharp teeth, but otherwise still come with fully working/boy girl parts.

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We have fluff bits about Gates to the Underworld, which seems to be a different Realm from Shysh. That place is apparently firmly in Nagashs hand and the Source of Nighthaunts/Malignants.

Most dead Souls are apparently routed there, though a few Gods of Order seem to have workarounds. Sylvaneth Souls seem to stick around partially, Phoenix Temple seems to have some tricks there, and then there is Sigmar and his Stormcast Shenanigans.

We don't have much AoS background on the Souls of Chaos worshipers, but Chaos Fluff has always transcended individual settings and AoS pretty much cemented that status further. Going by old established fluff, the Souls of Chaos worshipers belong fully to the Realm of Chaos and are punished, devoured or transformed to lesser demons on arrival. Chaos always had some ways of claiming Souls not truly dedicated to the Dark Gods. One example being the Plague of Nurgle, that turns the afflicted into Plaguebearers, regardless of dedication.


 

As for mortal servants of Chaos procreating, there are a Number of ways. One indication are old Norse, Kurgan, etc. tribes of the World That Was. Those tribes actually had a lot of fluff on their, at times shockingly normal, domestic and civil life, much of which are probably still applicable to the tribes that the weakest servants of Chaos, like Marauders and Bloodreavers, are recruited from. It is established Lore that the dedicated Forces, like Rotbringers, Arcanites and Bloodbound are the very most favored of the Chaos Tribes and Armies and I think even the Slaves to Darkness mostly represent an Elite. I'd say there are Huge Throngs of petty mutants, tribes and cults new champions of Chaos whose ranks can rise from.

If that is not enough for you, remember the unpleasant implications of the Chaos Hordes keeping huge amounts of Slaves.


 

Last, female Marauders, Warriors and Champions of Chaos not having miniatures does not mean they don't exist. In the background, they have always existed in uncertain numbers and in fact still do (there are a few female Lords of Khorne besides Valkya mentioned in throwaway background bits). Sadly, outside of gender ambiguous models (Impossible to tell whether there is Chaos empowered male or female beneath the fully armored frame of a Chaos Warrior or Knight or the bloated mutations of a Blightking) female Chaos Champions share the destiny of 40k female Imperial Guardsmen of hardly ever getting miniatures, despite confirmed existence, for reasons I'd rather not speculate on.

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Personally I run my fluff on a different idea, which is not canon in any way as far as I know.

Basically, I imagine Death as a primordial force akin to the Chaos Gods. While each Chaos Gods represents and is empowered by an aspect of the human condition, Death is empowered by, well, Death. So there is a force beyond Nagash, that causes the release of souls from the bodies of the dead, but if they have nowhere to go, where do they end up?

Well, the same things that apply to the Chaos Gods apply to them. If enough death happens in an area, reality warps as the torrent of dying souls become a force in their own right. The dead begin to rise, crops wither and armies of puppet-dead march to bolster their numbers. In the same way Khorne compels his daemons to slay yet more, or Nurgle spreads his diseases via his minions, Death would act via its puppeteered corpses and shackled spirits to kill, kill, kill. The more who die, the more power it gains, scouring the land as it devours souls to bolster its ranks.

That's my personal fluff that doesn't really have any basis in the lore. I just like the idea of a primordial, fundamental Death, rather than the entire GA being controlled by Nagash, who I find dull.

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5 minutes ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

Personally I run my fluff on a different idea, which is not canon in any way as far as I know.

Basically, I imagine Death as a primordial force akin to the Chaos Gods. While each Chaos Gods represents and is empowered by an aspect of the human condition, Death is empowered by, well, Death. So there is a force beyond Nagash, that causes the release of souls from the bodies of the dead, but if they have nowhere to go, where do they end up?

Well, the same things that apply to the Chaos Gods apply to them. If enough death happens in an area, reality warps as the torrent of dying souls become a force in their own right. The dead begin to rise, crops wither and armies of puppet-dead march to bolster their numbers. In the same way Khorne compels his daemons to slay yet more, or Nurgle spreads his diseases via his minions, Death would act via its puppeteered corpses and shackled spirits to kill, kill, kill. The more who die, the more power it gains, scouring the land as it devours souls to bolster its ranks.

That's my personal fluff that doesn't really have any basis in the lore. I just like the idea of a primordial, fundamental Death, rather than the entire GA being controlled by Nagash, who I find dull.

I always preferred undead characters having their own agendas ala Heinchich Kemmler, the von Carstiens and Settra, with Arkhan being the odd one out in his devotion to Nagash back in the day,  and was disappointed with how quickly Kemmler and Settra were taken off the board in the End Times. I think your idea of Nagah having slightly less control of the primordial "Death force" he claims to have created is a really cool hook and could lead to various other big names within the Grand Alliance twigging that he isn't as much of a be all and end all of everything with a skull as he makes out to be and plotting against him.

I'd give anything for Kemmler to make it over into the Mortal Realms someday, he's imo a much more iconic Warhammer character  than Nagash + can turn himself ethereal and didn't leave behind a body in the End Times.

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Yeah, I dislike how Death is apparently just Nagash and his forces now, especially with the Von Carsteins being his lieutenants. The FEC book implies that he doesn't have the total control he'd like, though, and I like the idea of something larger and more ancient than Nagash looming above him, with him being too arrogant to perceive it.

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1 hour ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

Personally I run my fluff on a different idea, which is not canon in any way as far as I know.

Basically, I imagine Death as a primordial force akin to the Chaos Gods. While each Chaos Gods represents and is empowered by an aspect of the human condition, Death is empowered by, well, Death. So there is a force beyond Nagash, that causes the release of souls from the bodies of the dead, but if they have nowhere to go, where do they end up?

Well, the same things that apply to the Chaos Gods apply to them. If enough death happens in an area, reality warps as the torrent of dying souls become a force in their own right. The dead begin to rise, crops wither and armies of puppet-dead march to bolster their numbers. In the same way Khorne compels his daemons to slay yet more, or Nurgle spreads his diseases via his minions, Death would act via its puppeteered corpses and shackled spirits to kill, kill, kill. The more who die, the more power it gains, scouring the land as it devours souls to bolster its ranks.

That's my personal fluff that doesn't really have any basis in the lore. I just like the idea of a primordial, fundamental Death, rather than the entire GA being controlled by Nagash, who I find dull.

See thats how i would have described death in the old setting.

But in AOS we are serveral tiers up in terms of our understanding of the gods. (Namley that we know the gods back stories and how most were once mortal etc)

To this end death strikes me less as a unstoppable force and more like a REALLY powerful spell. How important is Nagash to shiysh? as an Incarnate IS HE shiysh and will the whole thing dissapear if he does. If this is the case then the conept of death seems to be far more grounded as Nagash was nearly destroyed by Archaon (An almost but not god).

In the old setting we had no idea as to the true scope of the gods powers but in this new one there limits while still difficult to place as still far more clear than before (Alarielly had a fight with a bloodthirster if i remember rightly? and didnt curbstomp it immediatly. So she is powerful but not unimaginably so)

As previously mentioned since death dosent seem to apply to everyone (Even some who it should do. Looking at you Sigmar) but the fact that this is possible tells me that Death isent some unstoppable force. Its something that has been usurped by indivduals who have limits. VERY high limits. but limits non the less.

It hasent been made clear if dead souls go to Nagash himself or Shiysh. Sof if Manfredd finally got his way and usurped Nagash and ruled over shiysh would death carry on?or is it Nagash that is actually controlling it?

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I like to imagine Nagash and Death being similar to Magnus the Red and Tzeentch. Y'see it's revealed that Tzeentch is the reason Magnus was always such a powerful sorcerer, but he did it in sly ways that caused Magnus to believe he was always the one in charge wrestling power from the warp for his own uses. In the end Tzeentch was merely playing him like a puppet until the moment came to cut the strings...

I like to imagine something similar in-line for Nagash. He believes he is the master of the power of Death, and Death might even be letting him so long as ultimately the tally is reaped and the death toll continues to rise. However, is Nagash truly immortal? Is there not some way that in the end, he may truly die, and Death will slip into his place once more? It's an interesting question: what happens to the dead when Nagash dies.

I just prefer the idea of Death being older than everything, patiently waiting to reap each and every thing in the Mortal Realms and beyond, until all is cold and dark. If Death ever spoke or manifested itself I'd imagine it like Death from Supernatural, a being so far above everything it comes across that it barely cares. Nagash is just a spoiled child playing with fire, while Death patiently waits for him to burn the house down so he can be free. 

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According to the audio drama and lord of undeath mortals from my understanding are meant to go to the underworld nagash controls it and the underworld is separate from shyish considering the way it is written. Nagash's beef with sigmar is that he is also stealing souls from the underworld to reforge into stormcast. 

Also stormcast when they die go to the underworld but due to the reforging they zap straight back to sigmar when nagash tries to grab them he explains that they slip from his fingers and he can hear sigmars laughter in every flash of lightning and thunder. Him grabbing at these souls he takes bits which causes stormcast to lose themselves. 

This also deprives nagash of power which also vexes him and the fact sigmar is messing with forces and powers that he should have no say in. 

Chaos characters? It's pretty clear they go to the chaos gods nagash makes the express point those who are tainted and marked by the chaos gods their souls go to them. 

The whole plot of lord of undeath is nagash trying to find a way to circumvent the issue of souls not going to where they belong aka the underworld. Hence him devising a way to take the souls of chaos followers and stormcast. Josh also raises the point(his opinion) that all the death and how people are dying and going to the underworld might also be effecting him. To be well you know more like his old world self.  

The lord relicator Ionus (forgot his name exactly the closet nagash worshipper) in the starter set makes the point to vandus(He is wondering what the heck is going on with the stormcast and them turning into robots) that sigmar is messing with things that are not a part of his sphere and sigmar thinks to defy death(Vandus states no one can defy sigmar and Ionus retorts death can defy sigmar and that sigmar is toying with powers he has no true understanding of) . Yet death will have it's way in the end. (I assume due to the fact that bits of the stormcast spirits are taken by nagash when he tries to grab them.) He even states that death will even eventually claim gods even chaos itself and no one can deny it. 

Another interesting note is that stormcast souls can't be devoured by dread abyssal's mannfred's one tries to eat a stormcast soul but it zaps right out of his mouth straight back to sigmar. 

Of course other gods my have different death cycles for their people like the sylvaneth so I assume it's mainly for mortal humans than anything. 

There is a great bit in the book where nagash also shows that chaos can also corrupt the cycle of death and the lands of shyish  when he disintegrates a skeleton letting it collapse in the swamp it erodes like normal then it suddenly bursts into flies etc due to nurgle's corruption of the swap. 

Anyway all the chaos soul stuff is the same those who worship chaos and marked by chaos go to the chaos gods. Also nagash has already died in AOS Archaon per nagash's words pretty much chopped him in half and the mortarch's took his remains to the underworld and he just recovered again. 

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On the independence of Undeath, I like to think the relationship between Nagash and his Mortarchs is exemplaric of how the entire Faction works.

When Nagash puts his mind to it, he has the Mortarchs in an iron grip. The moment he turns his back, they go of to do their own thing. Likewhise I imagine all the various forces and notables of death have their own agenda and independence, but the moment a more powerful representative of Death shows up and excerts his influence, everyone falls in line, Like it or not.

There's a clear hierarchy to the faction, much unlike the tangle of loyalties and alliances in Order, the anarchic mob of destruction and the outright internal hostlity and backstabbing of Chaos. Few servants of Death would outright betray their master, but many may get unruly and try to weasel out of their bonds.

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1 hour ago, Rogue Explorator said:

On the independence of Undeath, I like to think the relationship between Nagash and his Mortarchs is exemplaric of how the entire Faction works.

When Nagash puts his mind to it, he has the Mortarchs in an iron grip. The moment he turns his back, they go of to do their own thing. Likewhise I imagine all the various forces and notables of death have their own agenda and independence, but the moment a more powerful representative of Death shows up and excerts his influence, everyone falls in line, Like it or not.

There's a clear hierarchy to the faction, much unlike the tangle of loyalties and alliances in Order, the anarchic mob of destruction and the outright internal hostlity and backstabbing of Chaos. Few servants of Death would outright betray their master, but many may get unruly and try to weasel out of their bonds.

That's pretty much lord of undeath. Mannfred clearly does try to get power for himself but deep down he himself admits that nagash is his master and neferata trying to use the alliance of sigmar to escape nagash. Nagash pretty much breaks that scheme into pieces and ensures that she has no choice but to stick with him. 

When nagash's pops up in neferata's city she pretty much starts shaking hops off her mount and kneels before nagash. 

When nagash is at the front he is fully aware of the plots of the "higher" undead even vampires he can even manipulate and guide their actions and read their minds and take information straight from their minds. Hence why ushoran is doing a runner and many of the ghoul courts that have not bent the knee are running because soon as nagash get's near them they are done. 

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Id never imagined Death as a sentiance on its own as even in the old world it seemed more like a force with simply with a guardian to effectivly keep it all running smoothly (like a glorified mechanic :) )  Morr/ whatever nekaharan version was called was the versionof the old setting which was usurped by Nagash.

I think that the AOS setting Nagash has a very Greek mthos inspired feel (Hence why i would love some new "underworld" units as a death faction) Nagash is Hades. I have a relative understanding of Greek Mythology and to my understanding it was belived that if Hades were to no longer carry out his "Job" (Being "Dead" or just incapacitated) while "death" would still exist alongwith the underworld things wouldnt run like they are supposed to. like a technical error in a factory line. People would still die but spirits would not be set to rest and perhaps be able to re enter the mortal plain of their own accord rather than the will of Nagash and those with Necromancy.

Death always exists not as malvolent force but as a neutral force that is part of the natural life cycle. However just like a spanner thrown into an engine the procoss of death can always be disrupted. (As proven by Sigmar)

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  • 4 months later...
  • 4 months later...

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but something has been nagging me.

What incentive do mortals have to worship Sigmar over Nagash?  Does Sigmar offer mortals a degree of protection in the afterlife? I get that Sigmar seems to be outwardly more benevolent to living beings than Nagash, but Nagash seems like the one whose good side you'd want to be on, since he seems to rule over the eternal aspect of a person.

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40 minutes ago, erasercrumbs said:

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but something has been nagging me.

What incentive do mortals have to worship Sigmar over Nagash?  Does Sigmar offer mortals a degree of protection in the afterlife? I get that Sigmar seems to be outwardly more benevolent to living beings than Nagash, but Nagash seems like the one whose good side you'd want to be on, since he seems to rule over the eternal aspect of a person.

Because sigmar aligns with their own morals/beliefs more than nagash.

Think about it in the real world, why did greeks worship gods that werent Zeus or Hades? Why did the Nordic countries worship anyone but Hel and Odin? (Throwing the ruler gods in there because i could see some people believing that the ruler gods would have some influence over the death gods)

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10 hours ago, erasercrumbs said:

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but something has been nagging me.

What incentive do mortals have to worship Sigmar over Nagash?  Does Sigmar offer mortals a degree of protection in the afterlife? I get that Sigmar seems to be outwardly more benevolent to living beings than Nagash, but Nagash seems like the one whose good side you'd want to be on, since he seems to rule over the eternal aspect of a person.

Sigmar (and theoretically most non-Chaos Deities) ultimately look after an individuals well being in life.  Nagash doesn't actually care what their mortal life is like - he doesn't need to as they're coming to him regardless (apart from the usual exceptions), in fact the sooner they die the better.  From the bits I've read it also appears that there isn't an afterlife as such, once a mortal dies their soul goes to Nagash which ultimately sustains him - the individual generally isn't in torment (unless they died in a particular manner) so there's no reason for somebody living in Azyr to need to worship Nagash.  The only eternal life is those chosen to become a Stormcast or one "blessed" by the Chaos Gods (i.e. becoming part daemon) although there are some variations to this (Necromancy etc)

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18 hours ago, Gotrek said:

Because sigmar aligns with their own morals/beliefs more than nagash.

Think about it in the real world, why did greeks worship gods that werent Zeus or Hades? Why did the Nordic countries worship anyone but Hel and Odin? (Throwing the ruler gods in there because i could see some people believing that the ruler gods would have some influence over the death gods)

They didn't worship any of them in the way we think of it. Unless you were part of a specific cult, you didn't so much worship the gods, you appeased them. You performed the sacrifices and rituals because you wanted what that god could offer (fertility, good fortune, success in battle, love, etc.) or wanted to prevent calamities (famine, infertility, invasion, etc.) should that god be angered and lift their favor from you.

 

We still see these kinds of practices today in parts of the Hispanic world that had a strong Catholic influence (Latin America, Portugal, Spain, etc.). There is a thriving market in the sale of candles with the image of specific saints and prayers to that saint. If you need help with your family, you worship St. Joseph; if you need protection from evil, you light a candle to Saint Michael the Archangel; if you need money or a job you might make a shrine to St. Judas Thaddeus. You also might perform devotion to your town's patron saint on his feast day or keep a charm on your person honoring the patron saint whose feast day coincides with your birth date. These saints are not worshipped full time by the vast majority of people; they are turned to at the appropriate time to achieve the desired effect. This is very similar to how pagan practices worked.

 

If Warhammer followed human history, most mortals would worship a variety of gods throughout the year and depending on what they needed. If a family member were sick, perhaps you may sacrifice to Nurgle in the hopes that he would withdraw the illness. If a loved one died perhaps a ritual to Nagash to earn your loved one peace in death, or perhaps there would be a ritual to Sigmar in the hopes your loved one would be elevated to the ranks of the Stormcast Eternals. Before a battle, you might perform rituals to Khorne and, perhaps as the chaos god of change, Tzeench would be the focus of rite of passage rituals.

 

Clearly, the Warhammer world isn't designed with that in mind; but that would be the more historically plausible way mortals would worship the gods. You would still have your cults to specific gods, but the vast majority of people would see the gods as beings that must be appeased and/or can provide help in times of need. You don't turn to them because you can relate with them, but because you need their help at the moment or are afraid of them.

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Just to drop a little lore tidbit from 8 Lamentation: Spear of Shadows. The vampire character in the book mentions having observed Nagash  in two forms and mentions he has many more, interestingly one of the forms she describes she calls Nagash-Mor and describes it as "calm and silent, weighing the hearts of dead souls against a feather". To me this suggests that Nagash has essentially absorbed not just the power but the roles of all the gods of death presumably including their associated underworlds. His whole personality may have been somewhat altered by absorbing these gods for example Morr or Sarriel(to the elves) was one of the main gods of death in the old world and was mostly on good terms with the other gods, the only disagreements came from other gods preventing him from receiving dead souls, this seems very similar to the way Nagash acts now. Sigmar and the chaos gods both keep souls from him and so he is opposed to both.

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26 minutes ago, Moonlightwolf said:

Just to drop a little lore tidbit from 8 Lamentation: Spear of Shadows. The vampire character in the book mentions having observed Nagash  in two forms and mentions he has many more, interestingly one of the forms she describes she calls Nagash-Mor and describes it as "calm and silent, weighing the hearts of dead souls against a feather". To me this suggests that Nagash has essentially absorbed not just the power but the roles of all the gods of death presumably including their associated underworlds. His whole personality may have been somewhat altered by absorbing these gods for example Morr or Sarriel(to the elves) was one of the main gods of death in the old world and was mostly on good terms with the other gods, the only disagreements came from other gods preventing him from receiving dead souls, this seems very similar to the way Nagash acts now. Sigmar and the chaos gods both keep souls from him and so he is opposed to both.

Pretty much and josh explains in askfm that the gods do have aspects it's like breathing to them. Like how some people view the giant worm as an aspect of sigmar which it is lol. Of course the gods have a chief face sigmar as we know him and nagash as the undying king.  

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