Sangfroid Posted November 20, 2017 Author Share Posted November 20, 2017 So had a blast this weekend at the Warchiefs GT, thought I’d rename this old thread which has some of my ramblings on and make some more ramblings. The event allowed the dual list format which I totally love in AoS and haven’t had the chance to play under since FHGT2016! Me and @Chris Tomlin had a second chance at “Might is right” grudge and agreed to take out fhgt2017 lists for that (essentially the same list except he had Daubing or mork and instead of Troggoth Hag 2 spear chuckkas and a weird nob, so a good even contest). Sadly krunk once again quailed at the thought Rotgors Giant Choppa, and we had to cancel. Though as they say 3rd time lucky so just more time for us to build up the anticipation! My second list was my chance to take out “Maximum Effort” for a spin which is basically Mawkrusha (ironclad and boss skewer) Warchanter troggoth Hag 3x10 brutes ive been using this in practice games and was 2 wins 2 losses going in to the event. One loss was agaisnt Fyreslayers and I was in that game all the way a little luck skewed to Carl and he pipped me though I managed to kill all but 20 of his 104 dorfs and 3 magmadroths, the other losss was agaisnt Seraphon and while the luck didn’t go my way again (lost all priority rolls) I also made a couple of mistakes which could have offset that. I basically spread out too much where the real power comes from teaming up say 20 Brutes and the troll hag one side and then 10 Brutes and the Krusha the other (or just a ball in the middle of everything advance into the centre of the enemy then fan out to the objectives once everything is dead (and yes 30 Brutes a Mawkrusha and troll hag does kill an obscene amount of stuff very quickly) I’ll post pics of the lists at the bottom of this post. So Game one and I was drawn against @Dave who I faced game one at BLACKOUT. This time he didn’t have his Kharadron Overlords instead bringing Beastclaw raiders and a Braggoths Beasthammer list (with butcher and hunter and some dogs). Having acquired some decent plate for my brutes last game we played I was keen to get some nice pelts for da ladz as we are moving into winter. Obviously there was only one list I could use for this game who doesn’t want to see Pig on Pig action! As I knew he would out drop me I set up only 8” or so on with most units basically flanking my army with pigs and a chanter then 5 Brutes then the 10 with the other characters roughly in the centre. He set up with his stonehorn on my right flank and spread the pigs and mournfang out one after the other (to get the formation buff) butcher and dogs in the centre and then hunter off board. This was a custom scenario which could lose 6” of any board edge each turn from T2 the objectives are basically the old border war with one extra in the middle. He gave me turn one so I basically advanced full speed on my left and then moved my right flank left as well so the army took on a crescent formation with the idea that I would carry on the advance to turn the battlefield lengthways. This tactic is great if the opponent has overloaded one of their flanks (in this case a Frostlord) as it increases the distance they have to cover to close on your lines, plus if you get the T2 priority you can slam into the sides of their units and disrupt their lines by limiting the attacks back at you or even using their own units to block each other’s from charging in return. Dave took his turn and advanced forwards but crucially failed his Frostlords charge (think it was an 8) and had to leave some mournfang behind as they failed a mystical test. He then elected not to charge with this gorepigs. He won the priorty and my long board edge shrunk by 6” I had left the edge of my troll hag and one Warchanter inside of 6” so they took D3 Mortal Wounds each! (Thanks to Warchief protective aura else they would have been dead!) He brought his hunter down to contest the left objective and also threaten my pigs, the non mystical mournfang collected the right hand objective. This left his gorepigs, stonehorn and the now not mysticalled mournfang to charge my lines. So then a total bloodbath proceeded, he killed off a unit of 4 Brutes and 3 goregruntas, and 2 Brutes from the 10 man unit with his attacks and double pile in, I in return killed a couple of pigs in each unit and my gorepigs took 3 wounds off the stonehorn before they died. (My last brute battleshocked off.) in my turn two my left gorepigs charged and killed the hunter, the Mawkrusha flew over and charged and killed the last Pig and 3 sabres (the last one on one wound) the troll hag vomit and 8 Brutes dealt with the 4 mournfang and the Warchief the last piggie. I then double turned Dave back , the Mawkrusha and troll vomit killed the other 4 mournfang and the 8 Brutes #BRUTES off the frostlord. We played out the last few rounds to see if we could get our respective warchiefs off the board edges, my Mawkrusha 11 or 12” charged his (a Mighty destroyers charge btw) and mine ended up 3” from the edge with 1 wound after great maw spell did him for 6 wounds. The last 5 Brutes got the butcher so they at least got to the killing eventually :-) overall major victory and 2000 - 320 on VPs but as is often the case with games this doesn’t do the game justice, the failed stonehorn charge and befuddled in the mournfang, followed by back to back double turns decided the game I’ve often pondered about the fact that when you can get double turn (like Dave did) you then open yourself up for a double in return, trouble is he had to take the double turn otherwise I’d have got to charge him anyway. A common issue with 2 combat armies facing each other. I think I played the first turn perfect (except for the micro inch hang over 6” for the troll and chanter) the extra inch or 2 of space contributed to the failed charge (he rolled a 5 or 6 I think) Dave played well, running the mystical gauntlet can sometimes work sometimes not (he put everything In range to get them all buffed if possible) he maybe should have ignored the right objective and kept the 2nd mournfang with the group to get a bigger punch when he committed but the only “mistake” as such was charging 10 Brutes with 3 gorepigs that was only ever going to end one way I would have targeted the 5 Brutes because even if I then countercharged with 10 Brutes they would have been taken out of the game for another turn meaning I wouldn’t have been able to take out both the mournfang and stonehorn at the same time. Overall a great game and loads of fun player in Dave, can’t wait for round three to what he brings for me to add to my new armour and winter pelt blankets ? 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Chris Tomlin Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 13 minutes ago, Sangfroid said: Me and @Chris Tomlin had a second chance at “Might is right” grudge and agreed to take out fhgt2017 lists for that (essentially the same list except he had Daubing or mork and instead of Troggoth Hag 2 spear chuckkas and a weird nob, so a good even contest). Sadly krunk once again quailed at the thought Rotgors Giant Choppa, and we had to cancel. Though as they say 3rd time lucky so just more time for us to build up the anticipation! I complete forgot that this was indeed the second time I've cancelled on you!! Oh dear...you'll start to think I'm running scared or something! It was indeed with a heavy heart that I dropped out of this event. Not only did we have our game I was looking forward to, but also I knew the social side would be awesome and I do like to support the Warchiefs in general as they have done so for all my events. But yeh, unfortunately it was the correct decision for me to mark for a number of reasons. Anyway, all that aside I did enjoy texting over the weekend and living the event vicariously through you. Great first report there, really cool to have so much detail and I look forward to reading the rest. Good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted November 20, 2017 Author Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Chris Tomlin said: I complete forgot that this was indeed the second time I've cancelled on you!! Oh dear...you'll start to think I'm running scared or something! It was indeed with a heavy heart that I dropped out of this event. Not only did we have our game I was looking forward to, but also I knew the social side would be awesome and I do like to support the Warchiefs in general as they have done so for all my events. But yeh, unfortunately it was the correct decision for me to mark for a number of reasons. Anyway, all that aside I did enjoy texting over the weekend and living the event vicariously through you. Great first report there, really cool to have so much detail and I look forward to reading the rest. Good work! Haha yeah your words of encouragement kept me going at times (no spoilers for those later reports) also don’t worry I wasn’t cranking up the banter train just yet will save that for the next time we resurect “might is right” it was more to explain why I took the FHGT2017 list ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlasticCraic Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 12 hours ago, Sangfroid said: Thanks for the report, a couple of very interesting snippets there, especially the thing about him charging your 5x Brutes (in order to pull in the 10x Brutes and waste a turn of theirs). I am a true believer in "learning more from defeat than victory", and it's even better when you learn from someone else's defeat Can I ask you please to post a close up of your Troggoth Hag? I'm due to start work on mine soon, and I wouldn't mind seeing how you've tackled her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 @PlasticCraic short answer for troggoth Hag is no, as she temporarily looks a bit naff, all it is currently is coloured shades over a white under coat just to get her tabletop ready. Long answer is that I also don’t have her to take a photo because the co-owner (yeah me and a friend got her together as there was a cheap one on eBay we both found and messaged each other about) currently has her to use with his sons ironjawz for a while. I won’t be doing anymore tournies till heat one and on Friday I received through my letterbox another 2 spear chukkas. I’m going to cycle through a few lists with these x3 and x2 with and without a warboss on boar with Waaagh banner to experiment with a few ideas plus I still want to try the brutefist out with 30 Brutes now I finnaly have 30 painted . That’s not to say that the hag is out, I’ve played 17 games with her in the list and she has only died 4 times and I’m 11 - 6 on those games. She is a very good ally and I feel a competitive option for IJ and I can see her making a return in the future for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 So strike while the iron is hot (or in this case the motivation) so here is game 2 I got to play a long time friend, clubmate and opponent Marcus Crawley. He has played death only in various guises throughout AoS and is a very competent player and great fun to play against. (he ended up being tied with 5 others for best sports for a mammoth 6 man dice off which was won by my previous opponent Dave Avery). Marcus and I have had some epic Ironjawz v death games over the years it was him that I had gordrakk fail 2 mystical rolls in a row then go full on hulk-mode, charge and kill Arkhan 2 x 20 skeletons, get charged by nefferata and a necrosphynx, survive the latters attacks, kill neffy in a oner, then take the necrosphynx down to 4 wounds before Marcus got the double 6 needed to finnaly put Gorks Chosen down. It’s not all been one way traffic either it was marcus who first introduced me to the pleasure of mournguls hacking to pieces my megabrutes, or his blood knight charges cleaning off Ardboyz and the like. We had actually had a practice game together about 3 weeks ago and he had faced my maximum effort list and been torn to pieces (I think I lost 8 Brutes, 4 Brutes and the Mawkrusha only) this is an issue with 2 combat armies who gets the charge first can often overpower the other. In this scenario it was duality of death with an extra rule added, basically from T2 movement phase onwards every unit not 100% inside a piece of terrain would suffer a permanent -1 to their armour save for the rest of their game (so -2 in T3 -3 in T4 etc....) unless you were within the aura (12” decrease with wounds taken) of the Warchief model. A normally great scenario for both of us (Mawkrusha and troggoth Hag, v coven throne and vampire on zombie dragon) that now suddenly was going to be very nasty for us as we both are combat armies that rely on high armour and wounds. Marcus list was coven throne, Chalice of blood, trait that causes extra mortal wounds on a 6 vamp on dragon 3 x 5 bloodknights 2 morghast with halberds 3 vargheists becasue of the wording of the new artifact it would appear that all the coven thrones attacks can benefit from the new “battlebrew” this I suspect is not RAI but me and Marcus have discussed this before and solid chap that he is he has even emailed the faq team at GW for clarification. This hasn’t arrived yet so as in the last time we played I let him have the boon with no hard feelings or arguments. I took the same list as the last time we played, “Maximum Effort” (see pic for our deployments) i outdeployed marcus so after much thought I let him go first, this was becasue while knew he would get forward and score the objectives I felt that my best chance would be to avoid getting charged by the blood knights I was also relatively confident I could chop down at least one of his characters before it scored in T3 (if I couldn’t then I would lose irrespective of whether I cleaned his whole army off like I did at FHGT) So as expected turn one marcus buffed up and charged forward on to the objectives screening his 2 characters with a unit of blood knights then holding a unit back (with vargheists and morghasts) an then braced himself for impact.... the troll hag focused her shots on the vamp lord and ticked a couple off and got her charge in as well took 3 off the dragon and 5 in return, 10 Brutes followed her into the 5 bloodknights and killed 3, (lost one back I think) on the other side Mawkrusha killed 4 bloodknights and the 10 Brutes (only 5 could actually fight it) took only 3 wounds off the coven throne who then killed 4 Brutes back (with battleshock) We rolled a draw for the priority roll...... which means marcus won because of the coven throne command abilty we were both made up for him as it’s such a rare occurrence and also meant we would have a game (had I got the double quite possibly would have been a horror show) marcus successfully beguiled my 6 Brutes on the coven throne brought his morghasts into the troll hag, the 5 reserve bloodknights forward hard into my Warchanter, and then he charged his vargheists into my 6 brute who were beguiled. (This is where he lost the game for sure he should have combo charged my brutes and troll hag with all 3 units, accept that his right blood knights would die to Mawkrusha but that I would still need to take a turn to clear off the coven throne and whichever killed it would have to stay there, out of my Warchief and Krusha. That way he may have cleared off my brutes, damaged the troll hag and then would only have had to deal with the other 10 Brutes and by deal, just keep them away from vamp lord till he could charge them or score enough until I was out of the game). what actually happened was over this combat phase (and the next) he killed a couple of brutes in the bigger unit, all the 6 on the right (but not before they killed a vargheists), took troll hag down to 4 wounds left and killed my Warchanter. In return I killed everything except his Warchief and 2 vargheists, I got the priority for T3 and the Mawkrusha quickly mopped up the stranglers. The hag healed 6 wounds cast her spell on the dragon (already now at -1 armour) so this combo’d to Effectively -3 from her vomits and staff attacks but this was after the Smashin & bashing combo of 10 Brutes on 5 bloodknights, Mawkrusha on coven throne, 6 Brutes on 2 morghasts... bosh bosh bosh BOOOSH! Major victory 1830 - 440 (he never got to use his summoning points mwwwwhahahahaahahha) A strange mission really for both of us because of the turn sequence I was able to maximise the effet of his -1 AS, but Marcus only really had two options advance and hope I don’t get the double (but at least he is on the objectives) or hang back and hope I don’t get the double (putting me on the objectives), a 50/50 either way but with my survivable heroes on balance I think he made the right choice, his mistake was not to capitalise on the luck (priority T2) and overload his strongest flank I may well have still had enough to drive through him but it could have gone to T4 or T5 and by then he may have had enough points to win or force a minor/draw. The other thing was not popping the chalice on the Dragonlord even when only lost 4 wounds on average that would be a decent result on a D6 and would have kept his lord alive another turn (though would have needed the over load as above to capitalise). Amazing game and opponent, he got my sport vote too (anybody with balls big enough to sit them down infornt of 30 Brutes a Hag and Mawkrusha deserves ✊ respect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlasticCraic Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 14 hours ago, Sangfroid said: @PlasticCraic short answer for troggoth Hag is no, as she temporarily looks a bit naff, all it is currently is coloured shades over a white under coat just to get her tabletop ready. Long answer is that I also don’t have her to take a photo because the co-owner (yeah me and a friend got her together as there was a cheap one on eBay we both found and messaged each other about) currently has her to use with his sons ironjawz for a while. I won’t be doing anymore tournies till heat one and on Friday I received through my letterbox another 2 spear chukkas. I’m going to cycle through a few lists with these x3 and x2 with and without a warboss on boar with Waaagh banner to experiment with a few ideas plus I still want to try the brutefist out with 30 Brutes now I finnaly have 30 painted . That’s not to say that the hag is out, I’ve played 17 games with her in the list and she has only died 4 times and I’m 11 - 6 on those games. She is a very good ally and I feel a competitive option for IJ and I can see her making a return in the future for sure. Haha fair enough, I got a good look at her booty in your second batrep, that will have to keep me going for now! I've also got a Warboss on Boar with Waaagh! banner that I use in a fun Mixed Destruction list...I've heard a few people tout him as a potential ally, so I'm very interested to hear how you go with him. Personally I felt like I wouldn't be getting value from him if I wasn't using his Command Ability, and also you wouldn't get a Mighty Destroyers roll, plus all the other stuff that goes with allies (an extra drop, no contribution to the Mighty Waaagh). That being the case I couldn't see him justifying his 140 points. Those rerolls though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 37 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said: Haha fair enough, I got a good look at her booty in your second batrep, that will have to keep me going for now! I've also got a Warboss on Boar with Waaagh! banner that I use in a fun Mixed Destruction list...I've heard a few people tout him as a potential ally, so I'm very interested to hear how you go with him. Personally I felt like I wouldn't be getting value from him if I wasn't using his Command Ability, and also you wouldn't get a Mighty Destroyers roll, plus all the other stuff that goes with allies (an extra drop, no contribution to the Mighty Waaagh). That being the case I couldn't see him justifying his 140 points. Those rerolls though... Yup that what I thought a bubble of Ardboyz around 2 spear chukkas and a warboss (as well as IJ characters) then brutes poised to counter charge or with 2” weapons fight over the top of the Ardboyz, might try to squeeze a footboss in as well for maximum rerolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlasticCraic Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 24 minutes ago, Sangfroid said: Yup that what I thought a bubble of Ardboyz around 2 spear chukkas and a warboss (as well as IJ characters) then brutes poised to counter charge or with 2” weapons fight over the top of the Ardboyz, might try to squeeze a footboss in as well for maximum rerolls. Yeah that whole "hitting over the top" thing is such a useful tactical option. Personally I've always used dual-wielding Brutes (even in 10s) because I find you can usually get most in anyway (especially on the charge, and with the Gore Hakkas at the back), and as they are whittled down you get more and more value out of the extra attacks vs the extra range. But that doesn't take into account the option to hit over the top of Ardboyz for example, which can be a significant tactical benefit that goes beyond "how many attacks will they do". I really should reconsider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 13 hours ago, PlasticCraic said: I got a good look at her booty in your second batrep, that will have to keep me going for now! Phwoar!!! One for the 'bank indeed! Another great report @Sangfroid. Sounds like a great game and actually made me want to play Marcus! You did a good job of putting him over haha. I look forward to seeing how you get on with the Spear Chukkas. Do you have a full build you can share with us at present? I imagine it'll end up similar to mine and I guess that being the case I should probably make some comment about you trying to emulate the best Ironjawz player given you've highlighted me dropping out of our grudge matches hahaha!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted November 22, 2017 Author Share Posted November 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said: Phwoar!!! One for the 'bank indeed! Another great report @Sangfroid. Sounds like a great game and actually made me want to play Marcus! You did a good job of putting him over haha. I look forward to seeing how you get on with the Spear Chukkas. Do you have a full build you can share with us at present? I imagine it'll end up similar to mine and I guess that being the case I should probably make some comment about you trying to emulate the best Ironjawz player given you've highlighted me dropping out of our grudge matches hahaha!! Totally concede that you are the better ironjawz player @Chris Tomlin your results attest to that 100% I’m just a kill points chump ? as for list I’m torn because I find it hard to make a list with low brute numbers #BRUTES this kinda pushes me down the 2x spear chukka route + Weirdnob (as I need a caster once troggoth Hag is removed from allies) unless I go down a no Mawkrusha route the firstlist (with bale wind) I’d see as a purely defensive list side plac ethe gorepigs then wall army behind them behind a screen of Ardboyz (Brutes with 2” weapons to fight over ardboyz) Megaboss close enough to make gorepigs charge off with brutish cunnin. Weirdnob and spearchukkas then blast the enemy forcing them to come forward, or kill the right things so you can go forwards. Knife to the heart becomes a race for a minor and duality of death could be tricky otherwise the other scenarios it could compete list 2 is “Wear your brown pants” basically same as my other 30 brute list but with a couple of spearchukkas and a Weirdnob potentially could drop him for maximum shootyness. Again hoping you can time your surge forward and get the charges off while pin cushioning key heroes or units with all the shots. This is my favourite one (obviously#BRUTES) but actually may make the list work better because if the enemy has no shooting or range you can just sit and wait as they will have to come forward into the meat grinder eventually 3rd list is more of a crack at a balanced list, the mighty horde as an anvil the Krusha and a hammer needs more work I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 @Sangfroid - I'm just razzing you mate. I am under no illusion that you are not the better Warhammer player and I'm fine with that. When it comes to Kill Point farming, there is most certainly no challenge anyway! As we've long said, Tournaments for Ironjawz tend to be 3-2 and it's just whether you can get that rub (be it in game luck, or match up) to push for that elusive 4-1. I don't think anything actually changes in gameplay between 3-2 or 4-1 for either of us at this stage if that makes sense. We can do so much and then it's out of our hands almost. I certainly think we've both done ourselves proud anyway. In regards to your lists, I like them all in their own ways. The 3rd is similar to my current build with the exception that I cannot bring myself to go Brute-free. The core principle is still fairly similar I suppose, although I have not had any experience with the 30 Ardboys yet. "Wear your brown pants" looks brutal and should allow for plenty of #BRUTES funtimes. Kinda surprised you get 30 Brutes in that build. I actually think it could be good. I loved the first list and thought it looked insane until, you guessed it, I realised there was no Maw-krusha haha! I now do not like that list . I think you'd miss the Cabbage too much man. The Balewind is something I need to try though tbh. I look forward to hearing how you get on with some of these lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted November 22, 2017 Author Share Posted November 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said: @Sangfroid - I'm just razzing you mate. I am under no illusion that you are not the better Warhammer player and I'm fine with that. When it comes to Kill Point farming, there is most certainly no challenge anyway! Said like a true Megaboss casual dissmissal of my nice compliment by agreeing and then throwing me a little bone to keep the brute boss in line, class act! ????? I don’t think I can play without the Mawkrusha if I am honest but was one of my little ideas. Will literally be using “Wear the brown pants” on Monday I think but I may choose to play as Stormcast as I’m up agaisnt a returning player so will tailor a list to his army that or “maximum effort” can be a little...... brutal to the uninitiated (Suppose it would also be a good chance to use a non Krusha army as well....) the third list I think is strong, but to not spoil my other 3 bat reps from the weekend, the current meta I believe allows the brute to shine as a unit even harder I am beginning to feel underpowered when I write lists if I haven’t got at least 20 in now and if not for the spearchukkas could easily conceive an army of 40 of them! (I may have a problem.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 48 minutes ago, Sangfroid said: the third list I think is strong, but to not spoil my other 3 bat reps from the weekend, the current meta I believe allows the brute to shine as a unit even harder I am beginning to feel underpowered when I write lists if I haven’t got at least 20 in now and if not for the spearchukkas could easily conceive an army of 40 of them! (I may have a problem.....) Nothing wrong with just loving those big green rippling manly muscles and not feeling complete when not surrounded by at least 20 huge hulking men rippling with muscles and giant weapons. Each to their own! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Sangfroid said: Said like a true Megaboss casual dissmissal of my nice compliment by agreeing and then throwing me a little bone to keep the brute boss in line, class act! ????? Read what I wrote again haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 (@Sangfroid in case it's not clear, I was saying that you are undoubtedly the better player. I've just had that bit of luck we talk about to get the 4th win a few times! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted November 23, 2017 Author Share Posted November 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Chris Tomlin said: (@Sangfroid in case it's not clear, I was saying that you are undoubtedly the better player. I've just had that bit of luck we talk about to get the 4th win a few times! ) Sometimes things cannot be un-said sir we will decide this the ironjawz way at the proper time, with krunk on his knees before Rotgor while his ladz flee the field around him! (P.s yeah I know fella I just thought it was an excellent typo we all do them but sometimes a perfect gem like that appears and made me laugh out load in the office ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 26 minutes ago, Sangfroid said: with krunk on his knees before Rotgar Srsly guys, get a room! Or I guess a table? This just got weird...weirder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 45 minutes ago, Sangfroid said: Sometimes things cannot be un-said sir we will decide this the ironjawz way at the proper time, with krunk on his knees before Rotgor while his ladz flee the field around him! (P.s yeah I know fella I just thought it was an excellent typo we all do them but sometimes a perfect gem like that appears and made me laugh out load in the office ?) There was no typo, I think you misread! Or does my sentence not say what I think it does? "I am under no illusion that you are not the better Warhammer player" That means I know you're better...right?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysandestolpe Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Chris Tomlin said: There was no typo, I think you misread! Or does my sentence not say what I think it does? "I am under no illusion that you are not the better Warhammer player" That means I know you're better...right?! It means that you are not mistaken that he is not the better player. I think what you wante to say is that you’re not under an illusion that he is the better player. its an awkward sentnce for sure, took me a few to really get that right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Chris Tomlin said: "I am under no illusion that you are not the better Warhammer player" 17 minutes ago, Lysandestolpe said: It means that you are not mistaken that he is not the better player. I think what you wante to say is that you’re not under an illusion that he is the better player. its an awkward sentnce for sure, took me a few to really get that right. The double negative involved is a real ******. If you remove that the sentence becomes I am under the illusion that you are the better Warhammer player Which can mean either. If emphasis were placed on the word illusion then it could imply that despite your perception of @Sangfroid being better it's only an illusion and in fact @Chris Tomlin is the better player. On the other hand the word illusion here could equally be taken as equivalent to the word "opinion". I am of the opinion that you are the better Warhammer player Which means exactly what @Chris Tomlin meant it to mean. Over all a super murky sentence that, without the vocal component adding emphasis, could really mean anything ? "I am under no illusion that I am the better player." Is the sentence he was after, removes the double negative and adds certainty to the statement. One of the times English shows its ugly side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysandestolpe Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Malakree said: The double negative involved is a real ******. If you remove that the sentence becomes I am under the illusion that you are the better Warhammer player Which can mean either. If emphasis were placed on the word illusion then it could imply that despite your perception of @Sangfroid being better it's only an illusion and in fact @Chris Tomlin is the better player. On the other hand the word illusion here could equally be taken as equivalent to the word "opinion". I am of the opinion that you are the better Warhammer player Which means exactly what @Chris Tomlin meant it to mean. Over all a super murky sentence that, without the vocal component adding emphasis, could really mean anything ? "I am under no illusion that I am the better player." Is the sentence he was after, removes the double negative and adds certainty to the statement. One of the times English shows its ugly side. Haha nice! You’re probably right, especially since there are three major english branches: British, American, and ESL. I asked a few people over here, in Murica, some of whom are very compitent in their language and the final agreed opinion was that “illusion” in most cases would be taken as factual rather than opinion, simply by the reason that illusion as a replacement for opinion over here doesnt really work as a synonym. Illusion is collective and opinion is subjective. I’d say the same thing goes for my native language, swedish. I cant speak for british. Me reading the sentence, id not assume it was a subjective application to the word, but a subjective application to the sentence, because of “I am under.” Which thus means its a collective understanding that he is not being fooled by that Sangfried is not the better player. I’m not trying to argue at all, you most likely know better than do as im not native english speaker. I just find this extremely fascinating and this stuff is the best way to learn for me. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 31 minutes ago, Malakree said: "I am under no illusion that I am the better player." Yeah, this would've simplified things! I over complicated the sentence for sure. I read it back in my head a few times to the point it lost all meaning. I still think that what I originally wrote does mean what I wanted it to...but it's a poorly worded sentence whichever way you look at it! Anyway...Warhammer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted November 23, 2017 Author Share Posted November 23, 2017 Thanks guys Just got back from a day of driving a total of 400 miles there and back for a single client meeting and this has made me smile and laugh a lot. Illusions or opinions matter little to Ironjawz but it’s nice to know the differences, there is no ambiguity around action. @Malakree surrendering in defeat...... seriously man! so next up is game 3 vs Dan ford and his council of blood/gore pilgrims list 1 of each bloodthirster bloodsecrator 2 x slaughter priests 2x 10 blood warriors 2x10 blood reavers the mission was starstrike and the special rules meant all shooting was limited to 12” so we both basically gave zero f....yeah you know what I mean. Dan is a great player (currently the UK number 1) we have missed playing each other now ever since I began tournies so 3.5 years or so, so as soon as the draw went up we were over the moon at the prospect. Dan only had one list so while we were setting up I debated with him which I should opt for of mine, “maximum effort” would be the strongest choice from a pure combat perspective but because of the randomness of the meteors I ended up deciding on “Troll bagging” because I felt the goregruntas speed would be vital. Either list meant I knew he would dictate first turn so I set up conservatively around 6” in (see pic) I wanted to tempt him to play for the double, if he didn’t get it but came forward then it would be game over, if he did then he would kill 2x5 brutes but my 10 and Mawkrusha would counter charge delete the bloodthirsters easily and then it would also be all over. If he didn’t play for the doubl rand instead played conservatively then if I won priority I’d make him have it (to come forward) or if he gave to me I’d sacrifice a unit of goregruntas to score but basically stay put. The reason I’m telling you all this is because i have often found this to be an excellent tactic to deal with combat armies who out drop you and make you go first. Advancing just makes the advantage they can get from the double easier for them so by doing nothing pushes the decisions back on them, it can (and usually does) totally throw the opposition because in their mind they have their plan set up you will edge forward they will charge etc.... etc... (particularly fast combat armies like council of blood). It worked and threw dan a little and so he was shuffling his units about leaving the choices for the 3 bloodthirsters till last. One great thing about this game and dan is we discussed our plans and moves (I.e I’m putting this guy here he is 15” from your Mawkrusha) this is a great habit to get into as it helps clarify your own thoughts as well as avoid mistakes and arguements later (I.e okay so that’s a 3” charge because my Krusha moves 12” etc...) Dan was talking through his options and I basically told him my reasons and quite rightly he realised that his best options was to play for the double, (if I had shut my mouth I think he would have sat back which was probably my best outcome) either way there was going to be a big fight soon...... Dan won the priorty and then turned the tactical tables on me, whereas I was expecting a full charge into my brutes screen he basically did a similar thing to what I did to Dave game one, seeing I had overloaded a flank he moved across to the other while scoring the meteor which landed on my left (weak) flank. He rolled a 1 for his mystical on a bloodthirster, and he sent just insensate rage thirster forward (who charged my troll hag in the middle) he explained that the mystical didn’t effect this choice and was his plan and I was happy to be outfoxed (not blowing my own trumpet, the brass kind @Malakree ) but it doesn’t happen very often. However on balance I wasn’t worried if she died because that would leave one BT 8” from my Krusha and brutes and the other 12” from my brutes (maybe 15” from Krusha) but then the world exploded.... literally. The insensate rage bloodthirster on full wounds can explode out in a 8” bubble 3 mortal,wounds if he rolls a 6 to wound, I knew about this (and dan had also mentioned it pre game) but I wasn’t too worried thinking that off 5 attacks (bloodsecrator banner) he might get the odd 6, he rolled 2 which Insta killed my 2 Warchanter, 6 off my Krusha and Warchief, 2 dead Brutes from 5 man screen and a gorepig. I failed the 3 AS and he then rolled sufficnet to take the 10 wounds off the hag so she died as well. Ouch. That hurt, but it wasn’t the end of the world (I was annoyed my Krusha was in range as that would slow him down now he was 7.9” away) it was my turn now so I could.... wait....... when you kill a hero you get an extra blood tithe point, so that meant Dan had 6, so he then could pile in 8” in my hero phase and attack. He did the exact same thing again though the 2 6s were off only 3 wound rolls this time.... dead krusha, 1 brute left in screen, 2 more Brutes dead now from 10 man, Warchief dead. Now it was my turn.... i had 5 Brutes, 8 Brutes, 1 brute , 3 pigs and 2 pigs left and basically game over really. My last brute boss died in Dans turn 5 ( from my 5 man) after I had killed both bloodthirsters and took his last down to 1 wound (if I won T5 priorty I may have sneaked that last wound off too) , not glossing over the game because it was basically charge fight, kill charge fight, die, while my gorepigs tried to chop thru blood warriors to get to the objectives taking a few with them but not enough :-) major loss 590 - 1980. It was a really good game, the early game tension and the explosive death, my valiant counter charge and then the excitement of my brute boss trying to take down the general and last Bloodthirster on his todd, meant we had loads of fun, he got to learn respect for #Brutes (the 5 man took one of his thirsters off in a oner) Still a good day one 2-1, and I’d have to wait till later to see who I’d be drawn against for day 2 (I had to pick my dad up from the races ;-) incidentally had I gone with maximum effort he could not have achieved the blood tithe points needed for his Hail Mary play and I think I’d have smashed thru him but i don’t know if it would have been fast enough to score enough objectives) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlasticCraic Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Can I make myself the most hated man on the forum, and go back to the grammar debate? I honestly think what Chris said is clear when you break it down... "I am under no illusion that you are not the better Warhammer player" I am under no illusion that = I am not crazy enough to believe You are not the better Warhammer player = I am the better Warhammer player* So Chris was effectively saying "I am not crazy enough to believe that I am the better Warhammer player". Which is also equivalent to saying "I am sensible enough to believe that you are better than me". Easy! *Tehcnically "I am the equally good or better Warhammer player" but let's not split hairs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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