Let's chat Fyreslayers

[Nico]

In a similar vein to the Let's chat Sylvaneth thread. I thought I would start a thread on the little dudes with the best hair - Fyreslayers.

Here's a couple of general comments to get the ball rolling:

• Fyreslayers aren't a fully fleshed out faction the way Bonesplitterz and Sylvaneth are.
• Sadly, the Order artefacts and command traits do not provide a great deal to compensate for this. The only combo I've found so far is the Quicksilver potion on the Runesmiter on Magmadroth, which seems handy. Reckless (the go-to command trait for Order) duplicates a lot of the abilities in the Fyreslayer's toolbox. The reroll battleshock army trait also duplicates one of the command abilities. Thoughts on this?
• Like Ironjawz, Fyreslayers unlock additional Battleline Units from keeping allegiance and picking particular generals.
• The Runeson, Runeson on Magmadroth and Warrior Kinband seem really weak.
• The Magmadroth (like the Knight Heraldor) has a breath attack which is just an ability in the shooting phase, rather than a listed ranged attack - this means that it can run and still use this ability, which means that it has an effective range of 30.5. 
• The whole army having the throwing axes attacks is nice.
• The fact that Vulkites are so much stronger as a unit of 20, 25 or especially 30 is quite restrictive.
• Ward saves are a big deal. There's a tension however between having ward saves on units; and really mediocre saves and no ward saves on the heroes.
• Volcano's call seems like an interesting ability against Sylvaneth.
• Overall the combat synergies are bad - marginally better than Sylvaneth - to me this says that Fyreslayers should rely on their tunneling mechanic and ward saves to win. 
• Auric Hearthguard (Aurics) are pretty killy and have some decent synergies - however, their range is sub-Grot archer and they aren't doing a free move of up to 8 inches in the hero phase either.
• There's a potential combo of simply sitting 20-30 Vulkites with slingshields in front of your army, with a Battlesmith and just having the enemy bounce off their 5+ rerollable then 4+ ward save - I think many of us saw this in livestream at The Warlords. That said, this combo would make a lot more sense if Fyreslayers had some 24-30 inch range shooting in the army, but they don't.

Here's a link to my first Battle Report using them:

My current list, to be played next Wednesday is as follows:

Leaders
Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (220)
- General
- Latch axe & Fyresteel Throwing Axes
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Quicksilver Potion
Auric Runefather (100)
- Artefact: Quicksilver Potion
Auric Runemaster (80)
Battlesmith (100)
- Fyresteel Throwing Axes
Auric Runesmiter (100)
- Latch axe & Fyresteel Throwing Axes
Auric Runesmiter (100)
- Latch axe & Fyresteel Throwing Axes

Units
Vulkite Berzerkers x 25 (400)
- War Pick Slingshield & Throwing Axes
Auric Hearthguard x 25 (500)
- Magmapike & Throwing Axes
Auric Hearthguard x 5 (100)
- Magmapike & Throwing Axes
Hearthguard Berzerkers x 5 (100)
- Throwing Axes & Poleaxe

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions
Lords of the Lodge (160)

Total: 1960/2000

 

The list is only 5 drops - the Lords of the Lodge is one drop, then the Magmadroth, then the 5 Aurics, then the Runesmiter with the Vulkites and lastly the Runesmiter with the Aurics. This should hopefully give me the choice, so i give my opponent turn one. Then I use the Lords of the Lodge ability to get a double turn reliably.

The Vulkites and Aurics pop up and do their thing. The Magmadroth uses its once per game ability to buff them and runs forward 15.5, then the breath attack is 15 inches on top of that. If they charge the Magmadroth, then it does its potion and smacks them. Everything else moves forward. The Battlesmith tries to be in range of the Magmadroth.

 

[Louzi]

Hey,

nice idea.

As you know, I love the Fyreslayers and did so much games with them. Honestly, they have fluff, they have style, they have orange hairs, but thats it...

Sure, a unit of 30 Vulkites with a battlesmith are handy and probably the most tanky unit in the game, but this army dont have enough damage. The Magmadroths are just a joke and you cant compare them with the other monsters out there. A cool combo is playin them as tanky bulk and waiting for your Celestant Prime getting big. Meanwhile you can shoot with your Kurnoth Hunters.

[Nico]

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The Magmadroths are just a joke and you cant compare them with the other monsters out there.

That's why I'm taking one which is only 220 points.

[Groomy]

It's sad to read. I was definitely on the fence about buying a few and trying them in game. Not so much now heh

Isnt Grimwrath Zerk stronk? 

[Nico]

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Isnt Grimwrath Zerk stronk? 

I don't use 5 wound heroes for combat as a rule, I use them for synergies. I don't rate the Grimwrath as his synergy is purely defensive towards himself and fiddly - requiring him to be near lots of enemy units. 

In my lists, the Runedaddy becomes another tax/possible objective grabber/chaff.

[Nico]

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It's sad to read. I was definitely on the fence about buying a few and trying them in game. 

I don't think it's doom and gloom time. It's just that the good stuff is in the units, rather than the heroes, which perhaps makes them less colourful and less varied.

It's worth stressing that being able to keep a huge proportion of your army off the table and deploying it anywhere (so more flexible than Sylvaneth) is a huge edge. It literally makes that unit uncounterable until after it has had a chance to do damage - and in the case of dropping 25 Aurics in someone's face, that's going to be quite significant.

Another list I'm working on involves 3 Runesmiters to push this dial up to 10.

 

[Nico]

Alright let's get positive, #onlythefilthful

Here's a mixed list:

Leaders
Auric Runesmiter (100)
- Latch axe & Fyresteel Throwing Axes
Auric Runesmiter (100)
- Latch axe & Fyresteel Throwing Axes
Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (220)
- General
- Latch axe & Fyresteel Throwing Axes
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Quicksilver Potion
Lord Castellant (100)

Units
Vulkite Berzerkers x 25 (400)
- Handaxe & Slingshield
Auric Hearthguard x 20 (400)
- Magmapike
Paladin Protectors x 10 (400)
Liberators x 5 (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
Liberators x 5 (100)
- Warhammer & Shield

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions
Wardens of the Realmgate (80)

Total: 2000/2000
 

This one is 4 drops - the formation, the Magmadroth and the two Runesmiters and Units.

The formation gives the Protectors a rerollable saves aura. It works on units in the formation only, which is why it's not bonkers. However, that's still amazing given that the Castellant puts them on 3+ rerollable (and 6s heal them).

The formation also gives you a Realmgate, which is rather handy since it allows you to set up the models within 6 inches of the back line of the enemy - with no other movement restrictions. You can literally deploy next to enemy models and you have a 3 inch range on the Protectors (technically you could set them up in cover in 3 inch range of the enemy units and in cover and be on a 2+ rerollable save as you don't even need to charge).  You will only lose 1/36 of the Protectors as the Magmadroth is a Priest.

Meanwhile, you slap down the Vulkites and the Aurics on a flank or in front of them and sandwich them. The Aurics do the pew pew with rerollable wound rolls from the Magmadroth. The Magmadroth runs and does its breath attack. You activate the Vulkites first, assuming that the enemy cannot beat a 3+ rerollable save on the Paladins.

 

[Louzi]

Hmm I dont like that list, because u are tanky enough and dont have to be more tanky. But you still lack damage, thats your weakness.

[kozokus]

"If you cannot loose you have won" from some random chinese warmonger.

I like the list à lot.

Btw is there any restriction about the placement of the realmgate?

Only the filthfull.

[Andreas]

My favorite topic. ?

I agee with most of your first post.

Just to start some discussions here are some different views:

I think the warrior kindband might be the only formation worth taking ? I would argue that taking 3 units of vulkites are better than including hearthguard bersekers and maybe better than taking a runemaster as general to get Auric Hearthguards as battleline. So if you have vulkites as battleline it might be worth it to take a runeson and the formation to get fewer drops and an artifact... maybe. The lodge and forge brethren are of course stronger formations but more expensive and more restrictive in how you build your list and probably not worth it IMO.

Ward saves are a big deal but rerolling (4+) armor saves are a even bigger deal in most cases. I think in most cases 4+ save (in combat) rerollable plus 5++ ward is stronger than 5+ save rerollable plus 4++ ward. This affects how I think regarding fyreslayers battleline options in favor of vulkites with shields over Hearthguard Bezerkers even in units sizes of 15 vulkites if you cant afford 3*30 vulkites.

I think 220pt for a Runesmiter on a Magmadroth is a steal (in a fyreslayer army) and I think 280pt for a Runeson on a Magmadroth is (almost) fair. The runefather is to much. And I think a fyreslayer army without magmadroths will be worse than one with magmadroths in most scenarios and against most opponents.

And my last thoughts for now, regarding their lacking in damage. I think buffed up tunneling Auric Hearthguards would be a very strong choice for a (glass) hammer in most armies. If you need more damage (and not tankiness) you need more Auric hearthguards in your army.

 

[Nico]

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Hmm I dont like that list, because u are tanky enough and dont have to be more tanky. But you still lack damage, thats your weakness.

You know the 10 Protectors are lugging 4 Starsoul Maces. 

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I think the warrior kindband might be the only formation worth taking ? I would argue that taking 3 units of vulkites are better than including hearthguard bersekers and maybe better than taking a runemaster as general to get Auric Hearthguards as battleline. So if you have vulkites as battleline it might be worth it to take a runeson and the formation to get fewer drops and an artifact... maybe. The lodge and forge brethren are of course stronger formations but more expensive and more restrictive in how you build your list and probably not worth it IMO.

Ward saves are a big deal but rerolling (4+) armor saves are a even bigger deal in most cases. I think in most cases 4+ save (in combat) rerollable plus 5++ ward is stronger than 5+ save rerollable plus 4++ ward. This affects how I think regarding fyreslayers battleline options in favor of vulkites with shields over Hearthguard Bezerkers even in units sizes of 15 vulkites if you cant afford 3*30 vulkites.

I think 220pt for a Runesmiter on a Magmadroth is a steal (in a fyreslayer army) and I think 280pt for a Runeson on a Magmadroth is (almost) fair. The runefather is to much. And I think a fyreslayer army without magmadroths will be worse than one with magmadroths in most scenarios and against most opponents.

It might be worth taking solely as a means for reducing the number of drops in your army and ticking off the Battleline requirement (e.g. in a mixed Order list).

I agree about Hearthguard - I don't like the vulnerability if you snipe the heroes. Are you assuming that you'll have the Battlesmith alive? He's quite tanky with a 4+ rerollable himself. They don't have the ability to reroll one of the dice when charging, so they are useless as a deep strike unit in my opinion. I only take them as they are viable as a small scoring unit of 5, whereas 5 Vulkites are a bit of a joke. The problem then becomes that I want the guaranteed (not a guarantee) double turn - but I want it for the Aurics, whereas the formation relies on the Hearthguard.... 

I'm a big fan of the shields on Vulkites, but they don't work when you charge, which is a shame. 

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And my last thoughts for now, regarding their lacking in damage. I think buffed up tunneling Auric Hearthguards would be a very strong choice for a (glass) hammer in most armies. If you need more damage (and not tankiness) you need more Auric hearthguards in your army.

 

I've got 30 of these in my list (and have somehow painted 20 of them). I completely agree. I've been pondering whether to use them as the Forge Brethren or as a single block of 25 or even 30 models with a Runesmiter and the reroll wounds buff.

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Btw is there any restriction about the placement of the realmgate?

Seemingly not, so put it in the corner and put all the Protectors within 6" of it.

[The Barwick]

The Grimwrath can be great fun when you get him within a couple of enemy units. I had him surrounded by a unit of Brutes, a Warboss on foot,  and a Mawkrusher.

After the Warboss on foot went down a warchanter joined the fray so his 3+ ward kept on rocking. He was also buffed by a Battlesmith, he survived all the way to turn five with two wounds left and the only Orruk alive was the Brute Big Boss. The mawkrusher went down with help from Vulkites with 2 axes.

I rolled really well with his saves its a shame it takes luck with his deployment for his ward save to kick in. In my next game he was shot off before i could get him into combat. 

The shield Vulkites are great on the charge, and the fact they get even tankier in combat the turn after is great. I run these at 30. 

I've been placing the Runefather on Magmadroth behind some Vulkites to benefit from his three inch reach with his axe and then use (if I can) the roaring fyrestream in the shooting phase. I am leaning towards going 100% just foot troops though, or getting another Magmadroth with the Smiter and using the forge brethren formation.

I hope they get some love soon similar to the newer released battletomes, maybe a section in the Steamhead Duardin Battletome if that ever appears, or even a section in White Dwarf. I love playing my Fyreslayers especially when you get insanely lucky with re-rolling failed saves then get really lucky with the ward saves. Something that could have killed 8 Fyreslayers  turns into just losing one. Very satisfying.

[Videojams]

Hey fellas, 

Been playing for a couple months, but have yet to win a game. I think my biggest issue is has been figuring out how to take objectives while protecting my own. Tried a few lists with and without a Runesmither and either the unit I tunnel gets wiped out or I just can't manage to get over to far away objectives without being blocked mid table.

Any guidance on how Fyreslayers should generally be played? Like, I feel like I know how all the heroes and troop choices work, but still not sure where and when to use them.

[Nico]

My feeling is to deploy a small defensive force in the centre to hold an objective, then I would hit one of their flanks very hard with two Runesmiter borne units. They would also hopefully grab an objective.

[Malakithe]

I've been toying with some lists. One is full HB. 3×20. Foot Father as general. 2 Battlesmiths, 2 Grimmy. The idea is to have 3 autonomous blocks. 

1 unit of HB running with a Battlesmith and a Grimmy. There would be 2 of those blocks. The blocks run to objectives and stay put. The enemy would need to kill the Battlesmith and Grimmy. The real suprise is when the Battlesmith dies the HB and Grimmy get perma-reroll to hit and wound. The HB will only start dropping once both heroes are gone and if people are foolish enough to charge an objective held by Grimmy and a line then they won't go anywhere.

The 3rd block is the Foot Father with his escort. CA let's him toss off wounds to his HB escort so they can absorb then. 

There is also a Runesmiter for options. 

Now as far as people thinking fyreslayers don't have damage that's just incorrect. The sacrificial magmadroth can bleed put all over units and HB have some of the best MW output in the game.

[scrubyandwells]

Great thread so far. Took a look at Fyreslayers. Here's a few initial impressions (no playtesting...just based on battletome + GH): 

• Magmadroths seem quite overpriced. I think Monsters are often inefficient choices in GH.
• It looks like the most efficiency comes from infantry only.
• Runesmiter + Battlesmith seem highest value Heroes-wise since they provide key buffs for infantry.
• I'd probably take x2 Runesmiter and x2 Battlesmith. The former gives a lot of deployment flexibility and latter gives two area bubbles for save re-rolls, ensuring all or most of the army is re-rolling saves at any time, along with giving two locations for None Shall Defile the Icon.
• Runefather on foot looks good for General due to his 4+ "Look Out, Sir!" equiv to help keep him alive + having him on foot makes it easier to prevent LOS to him.
• One block of 30 Vulkite Berzerkers, strung out in a line, is tempting, although I'd be tempted to look at x2 @ 15 each for more flexibility, despite the reduced save.
• Anyone looked at the math on Vulkite Berzerkers w/ picks/shields vs Hearthguard Berzerkers w/ broadaxes? I'd be tempted to take x2 Hearthguard units of 10 and keep them in range of Heroes for their 4+ ignore roll and ideally keeping them back a bit to counter-charge.
• Forge Brethren battalion looks like the best option, by far, as long as the +1 save can be done per Auric Hearthguard unit, rather than only one unit.
• At first glance, the following 2K looks interesting, potentially swapping Hearthguard Berzerkers for more Vulkite Berzerkers and/or an extra 5 Auric Hearthguard, along w/ potentially doing 30 Vulkite Berzerkers x1 instead of 15 Vulkite Berzerkers x2:
  • Runefather, Runesmiter x2, Battlesmith x2, 15 Vulkite Berzerkers x2 (picks/shields), 10 Hearthguard Berzerkers x2 (broadaxes), 5 Auric Hearthguard x2, 15 Auric Hearthguard, and Forge Brethren battalion.
  • That's 80 models @ 103 wounds w/ multiple synergies from the Forge Brethren, Runesmiters, Battlesmiths.
  • I'd probably do Runic Blade (extra -1 rend) for Runefather + Strategic Genius so he can do his command ability + Inspiring Presence on a key unit. Not sure re: second artefact (via battalion) for a Runesmiter or Battlesmith.
• In general, Fyreslayers seem designed to function as a molten-rock-solid wall: let the opponent hit you, take their best punch, and then counter-punch. And then of course they have add. flexibility via the Runesmiter's Magmic Tunneling, although I'd be tempted to only use that when absolutely necessary, since the priority seems to be forming that molten-rock wall and making it as buffed and resilient as possible and then counter-punching.

[Nico]

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  Magmadroths seem quite overpriced. I think Monsters are often inefficient choices in GH.

Yup. Except for the Runesmiter one (who effectively has a once per game command ability, which isn't a command ability). The Runeson is such a waste of a good model - abysmal command abilities.

• Quote

  It looks like the most efficiency comes from infantry only.

Pretty much yes. That said, part of me is tempted to take an Archmage on Dragon to supplement my list - level 2 wizard, +1 to unbind, can unbind enemy mystic shield. 

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Runesmiter + Battlesmith seem highest value Heroes-wise since they provide key buffs for infantry.

Completely agree.

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In general, Fyreslayers seem designed to function as a molten-rock-solid wall: let the opponent hit you, take their best punch, and then counter-punch. And then of course they have add. flexibility via the Runesmiter's Magmic Tunneling, although I'd be tempted to only use that when absolutely necessary, since the priority seems to be forming that molten-rock wall and making it as buffed and resilient as possible and then counter-punching.

In principle yes - although I'm finding myself drawn to them as a quasi-alpha strike list (admittedly with a small defensive core). Effectively, you deploy a long line of Vulkites in front of the enemy, probably charge in with them (potentially into only one unit and leaving a long blocking line in front of the rest of the enemy army or you can YOLO it. Meanwhile the 20-30 Aurics are sitting behind pew pewing away - hopefully for a double turn. 

What concerns me about a purely defensive list is (a) no shooting over 15 inches; and (b) incredible slowness without the Runesmiters, so no way to score distant objectives. I've bought a Luminark which could solve problem (a), but then I'm exposed if they come out with an Allegiance Pack.

Hearthguard aren't as durable as 25+ Vulkites with Slingshields, as the latter have the 4+ save in melee if they didn't charge. It's seriously annoying that HG don't have a 4+ save for such expensive models. 

Allegiance Pack

On another note, what do people think of the idea of creating interim Allegiance Packs for armies currently lacking them for use in tournaments (you would need to refer to them in the tournament pack obviously)? I'm aware that Tyler Mengel has led the charge with Tomb Kings (although I know many in the UK would be extremely hostile to anything that approaches buffing a Tomb Kings list and it's hard to beat the Death and Destruction Allegiance Packs - Bonesplitterz were only able to do so by creating a completely unfluffy pew pew combo). 

[Andreas]

This:

Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (220)
Battlesmith (100)
Battlesmith (100)
Auric Runesmiter (100)
Auric Runesmiter (100)
Vulkite Berzerkers x 25 (400) (Tunneling)
Vulkite Berzerkers x 15 (240)
Vulkite Berzerkers x 15 (240)
Auric Hearthguard x 25 (500) (Tunneling)

or maybe this:

Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (220)
Battlesmith (100)
Auric Runesmiter (100)
Auric Runesmiter (100)
Auric Runesmiter (100)
Vulkite Berzerkers x 25 (400) (Tunneling)
Vulkite Berzerkers x 15 (240)
Vulkite Berzerkers x 15 (240)
Auric Hearthguard x 15 (300) (Tunneling)
Auric Hearthguard x 10 (200) (Tunneling)

is currently what I believe is the strongest mono Fyreslayers armylist possible. (Using the quasi-alpha strike strategy.)

[Nico]

I think this is a little bit better (although a tad dull):

Leaders
Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (220)
- General
- Latch axe & Fyresteel Throwing Axes
Auric Runesmiter (100)
- Latch axe & Fyresteel Throwing Axes
Auric Runesmiter (100)
- Latch axe & Fyresteel Throwing Axes
Auric Runesmiter (100)
- Latch axe & Fyresteel Throwing Axes

Units
Vulkite Berzerkers x 30 (480)
- War Pick Slingshield & Throwing Axes
Auric Hearthguard x 30 (600)
- Magmapike & Throwing Axes
Auric Hearthguard x 20 (400)
- Magmapike & Throwing Axes

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions

Total: 2000/2000

[Andreas]

Yes maybe.   I think that one is stronger in Take and Hold and Gift from Heaven but maybe not in the other ones. (Or you could of course table the opponent.)

Ps: Need to change it to 25 Vulkites and Runemaster. 

[Nico]

It's a risky list - you would need to take out all of their shooting/flyers or pin them in combat otherwise the big blocks of Aurics will melt. 

I would drop the smaller unit of Aurics to 15 and take a Battlesmith instead for holding objectives (he can walk around with his reroll saves aura). The Runemaster is a real disappointment - the Holy Seeker ability is basically a net buff for your opponent if he is clever/not greedy with it - giving reroll wounds of 1 to a cannon or some other long distance unit that you will not get to or don't need extra attacks against. It is, at least, fluffy.

[Andreas]

Did a quick calculation. If you get the double turn with your 45 Auric Hearthguards you would deal close to 100 rend -1 wounds on the opponent. What's left after that the Aurics could probably deal with in melee.  

You might not win tournaments but I guess your win rate would be above 50% againt pretty much any list an opponent can throw at you. 

[Nico]

Cool. 

After applying a 4+ save, I make it 26 wounds in the first turn, then 35 more in the double turn (because the runesmiter runs up to provide the +1 to hit buff). Plus the Fyresteel Throwing axes in the second turn - which are 3+, 4+ rerollable, no rend - so no joke.

 

[Andreas]

Yes crazy. But I still believe that one of my lists have a better chance over the course of five games. Much more solid if the dice doesn't go your way.

I read your tier-list in the other thread. Fyreslayer are nowherethe top tier. But do you really think this types of lists are bottom third tier, below Dispossessed, Pure Slaves to Darkness, Pestilens, various mono daemons etc..? I would put it in maybe Ironjaws, Seraphon (with Kroak) territory.

Edit: Or maybe Legion of Azgorh territory which I am building and painting right now. In my head I can't see a LOA list that would be better. Might change when I have the opportunity to play them. (I have played against and pretty much tabled a LOA infantry/magma cannon based army with a weaker version of my lists above. Only lost one unit, a magmadroth.)

[Nico]

 

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Yes crazy. But I still believe that one of my lists have a better chance over the course of five games. Much more solid if the dice doesn't go your way.

I read your tier-list in the other thread. Fyreslayer are nowherethe top tier. But do you really think this types of lists are bottom third tier, below Dispossessed, Pure Slaves to Darkness, Pestilens, various mono daemons etc..? I would put it in maybe Ironjaws, Seraphon (with Kroak) territory.

 

I agree to the extent that I'm not wedded to that list - I prefer the lists at the top of this thread. I was just min-maxing your 3 Runesmiter option (which is an interesting possibility, yet mono-dimensional - it hinges on making a charge on a 9 rerolling one dice and you getting the double turn.

The Fyreslayers don't really have a good unit for just sitting at the back on an objective. Aurics are very expensive for how shreddable they are (like Tree Revenants) and aren't long ranged enough to sit back, 5 Vulkites are only rocking a 6+ ward save, so they too are a bad choice at 5 wounds for 80 points. Taking a unit of 3 Waywatchers for 80 points as inherent battleline or 5 Liberators with shields or Judicators or Bleakswords is probably the right move sometimes.

Maybe they are top of the third tier. They do have some serious limitations - slow; poor range on their shooting; overcosted Magmadroths that are nowhere near tough enough; expensive yet fragile units; 4 poor heroes (both Runesons, Grimwrath, Runemaster, the Doomseeker); no named characters or big bads; only two credible formations (Stormcast have over a dozen, Sylvaneth have at least 10); weak command abilities; and really poor synergies with the Order Allegiance Pack (which literally duplicates some of their existing abilities).

The realisation that the firepower from the Aurics is horrific if they can be kept alive until such time as they get into range and that a Runesmiter is a virtually guaranteed way to achieve that (only Be'Lakor and Gryph Hounds would be a problem) is what makes them a viable army - and why I've painted 25 of them - 5 left to go. I love the idea of the one-two punch with a hammer ranged unit and a hammer melee unit that your opponent cannot scratch until they come down.