nasty little 1000 Pts. Death

[the_prophecy]

Hi,

i´ve tried good old Deadwalkers lateley and had decent results so far but i was not really impressed from the necromancer besides his awesome dance Macabre Spell (he is overprized i think)

so i wanted to try something like that

 

Neferata, Mortarch of Blood

40 Zombies

Corpse Cart

5 Black Knights

120 Pts. for Summoning

 

First i would set up 10 Zombies as 4 different Units to see what my Opponent sets up on the table and to see wich mission is played. Than i can join them to 2 Units or maybe one big unit. Later in the game i could summon 5 more Balck Knights or 2x 10 new Zombies.

 

Neferata spends her -1 to Hit for every Opponent and wenn the Zombies tarpet the dangerous enemy Units she will summon moree zombies to tie them even more in the zombie wall (wich are hittin on 2+)

 

I dont know if the Corpse cart count as a hero but i dont think so. the main problem is that i have only one hero in this list, so i think thats a problem. But spending the 120 Points for a necromancer instead of summoning is a bad idea in my opinion. What do you guys think?

[CoffeeGrunt]

I don't really think the Zombies are going to be all that effective, it seems to lack for killing power. Remember that Zombies become awful the more of them die, and they'll die right-quick. You don't really have much oomph to hit with, especially as Neferata is more of a support character than a damage powerhouse.

[the_prophecy]

i think the zombies have enough killing power. they hit on 2+ and wound on 3+ with at least 15-20 attacks. The enemy hits back with -1. The zombies get models back on 6s with every killed enemy model and auto D6 new Zombies because of the standard. The Plan is, once the zombies tied up the dangerous enemys, neferata joins the combat and does damage too. Also the Black Knights have decent Damage Output at the charge.

I Know it not a damage dealer army but i shines at the long run. Maybe i gibe it a go and test the list egainst different factions. The most tests with zombies were against Stormcasts without shooting and they were always runned down from the zombies

[CoffeeGrunt]

Trust me, Zombies really don't do all that much damage. Even at 20 attacks they'll average about 17 hits, translating to about 12 Wounds. Against models with a 4+ Save, that's only 6 Wounds. And that's only if they stay at 30+ models. Once they start taking casualties, their ability to inflict damage drops off a cliff. One good charge and you'll be struggling to counter-attack. 

Give it a go, but in my experience Zombies are a cheap tarpit, they don't deal any noteworthy amount of damage and definitely not enough to be your primary damage dealer. Against artillery or ranged fire they'd be doomed.

[sal4m4nd3r]

While I agree I think the list needs a bit of tweaking.. I take umbrage with your view on zombies. Horde rules effing rock right now and zombies are very strong.  You have to take LOTS of them though, unless your just using them as a troop tax. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

One attack each though, and they're designed to crumble woefully upon taking casualties. At 40 strong and being the only major infantry target on the table, they'll take all the hatred from the off. 

[David Griffin]

If you're playing Matched Play, I think the community consensus is that zombies can't merge to create a bigger unit, based on the rules for increasing unit beyond their original sizes in the General's Handbook. I'm with @CoffeeGrunt. Zombies are really not a reliable offensive weapon, and with no saves, they get worked by any sort of ranged attacks (really any attacks). 

Looking at your list, I would try dropping the corpse cart and a zombie unit and adding in something killy like Morghasts.

[Solaris]

2 minutes ago, David Griffin said:

If you're playing Matched Play, I think the community consensus is that zombies can't merge to create a bigger unit, based on the rules for increasing unit beyond their original sizes in the General's Handbook.

I don't think there is any general consensus on this, you will find a lot of people here fiercely defending their right to merge Zombie units in Matched, and I've seen it done in tournaments as well. I think it's one of those "play it the way you prefer until GW clarifies" kind of things.

[CoffeeGrunt]

It's gamey, but then it's still not cut-and-dried.

Personally I love Zombies, but they have never, ever killed anything of significance and I was running 60 most times. They basically served as a meat blanket for my other forces. Skeletons are a Battleline that brings more punch, and you can take 30 Skeletons for the cost of 40 Zombies.

Of course, the army is yours as far as theme and the models available, I would just note that if you are planning to purchase models to build this list, I would advise against it.

[sal4m4nd3r]

1 attack.. unless you use a VL command ability and now they have 2. Cast VDM and now they get to Pile In/attack twice. Quite a bit of damage. And thats why I think the OP needs to tweak his list. It is trying to be 2 or 3 different lists. You can use Zombies as a damage dealer, or as a minimum tax. He is in an in between level. Also, if you worried they are to slow, the VLoAT can double their movement. So there are ways to make zombies be a wrecking ball.. but it seems you haven't used them in this way. 

4 hours ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

It's gamey, but then it's still not cut-and-dried.

It is VERY cut and dried. Its also NOT gamey... its an ability on their warscroll. Is it gamey to use "serve in death" special rule for your skeletons? You can absolutley merge zombie units in matched play. It says so on thier warscroll.

The ONLY "controversy" is whether you can merge two units to go beyond the max size of the unit as noted in GH..which is 60. So I can 100% merge two units of 30 into one of 60. The iffy part comes when you want to merge 2 units with 35 each to make one unit of 70..which would be 10 above the max size. I have asked several TO's in my area, including a few GW store managers and ALL have agreed that this unique ability gives zombies the ability to go up infinitely beyond the 60 limit. Thats my area .. YMML. But there is NO reason why you cant merge two units into one, in matched play, if its below 60.  

[David Griffin]

15 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

It is VERY cut and dried. Its also NOT gamey... its an ability on their warscroll. Is it gamey to use "serve in death" special rule for your skeletons? You can absolutley merge zombie units in matched play. It says so on thier warscroll.

The ONLY "controversy" is whether you can merge two units to go beyond the max size of the unit as noted in GH..which is 60. So I can 100% merge two units of 30 into one of 60. The iffy part comes when you want to merge 2 units with 35 each to make one unit of 70..which would be 10 above the max size. I have asked several TO's in my area, including a few GW store managers and ALL have agreed that this unique ability gives zombies the ability to go up infinitely beyond the 60 limit. Thats my area .. YMML. But there is NO reason why you cant merge two units into one, in matched play, if its below 60.  

There are other warscroll abilities that are negated by the rule of one in the GH - like Kroak only being able to cast Celestial Deliverance once instead of three times as stated per his ability - so there is a precedent.

As an owner of plenty of newly painted zombies, I wholeheartedly support being able to merge smaller units into larger units, but I do think there is a particularly strong argument against it. The rules in the GH state you can never increase a units size over it's starting size (I don't have the exact wording in front of me at the moment), which applies to other warscroll abilities that allow models to return to the units i.e. skeletons' banners. I'd also note that GW store managers are notoriously lousy at rules judgements - their job is to sell the game & models and support the hobby, not rules lawyering. 

Certainly not trying to be combative here, and I do think there is absolutely a place for zombies even in small units of 10. Simply stating the other side of the discussion :).

[sal4m4nd3r]

16 minutes ago, David Griffin said:

There are other warscroll abilities that are negated by the rule of one in the GH - like Kroak only being able to cast Celestial Deliverance once instead of three times as stated per his ability - so there is a precedent.

As an owner of plenty of newly painted zombies, I wholeheartedly support being able to merge smaller units into larger units, but I do think there is a particularly strong argument against it. The rules in the GH state you can never increase a units size over it's starting size (I don't have the exact wording in front of me at the moment), which applies to other warscroll abilities that allow models to return to the units i.e. skeletons' banners. I'd also note that GW store managers are notoriously lousy at rules judgements - their job is to sell the game & models and support the hobby, not rules lawyering. 

Certainly not trying to be combative here, and I do think there is absolutely a place for zombies even in small units of 10. Simply stating the other side of the discussion :).

The rules about not going over starting size is relevant for adding models to a unit (like the zombie standard bearer), but the "schambling horde" special rule specifically states you are allowed to merge two seperate units of zombies together to FORM A NEW UNIT.  thats the key wording right there. Each unit ceases to be, and a new unit is formed with the starting size being the number of zombies combined. 

 

"Certainly not trying to be combative here"

I know that! Hope I'm not coming across that way either. 

[Solaris]

But it doesn't actually say NEW in the rule, it says "they can merge and form a single unit". The wording doesn't state that each unit ceases to be and that a NEW one is formed, that is an interpretation. I agree with that interpretation, and if I ran a tournament I would allow it, but that doesn't make that interpretation into absolute truth. As David Griffin said, there is a precedent for the General's Handbook negating warscroll rules, so there is a possibility that Zombies are not intended to be able to merge in Matched play.

I agree with your interpretation, but it's still an interpretation.

[David Griffin]

22 minutes ago, Solaris said:

But it doesn't actually say NEW in the rule, it says "they can merge and form a single unit". The wording doesn't state that each unit ceases to be and that a NEW one is formed, that is an interpretation. I agree with that interpretation, and if I ran a tournament I would allow it, but that doesn't make that interpretation into absolute truth. As David Griffin said, there is a precedent for the General's Handbook negating warscroll rules, so there is a possibility that Zombies are not intended to be able to merge in Matched play.

I agree with your interpretation, but it's still an interpretation.

This.

We really need an official GW ruling, because there are two legitimate interpretations. Until then, it will be something TO's will have to handle individually.

[Nico]

Quote

If you're playing Matched Play, I think the community consensus is that zombies can't merge to create a bigger unit, based on the rules for increasing unit beyond their original sizes in the General's Handbook. I'm with @CoffeeGrunt. Zombies are really not a reliable offensive weapon, and with no saves, they get worked by any sort of ranged attacks (really any attacks). 

Every special rule breaks a normal rule - that's why they are special. It was extremely odd that the Rule of One was ruled to override Nagash, Arkhan and Kroak's special rule - this was done so as to elevate the Rules of One to a higher status and for balance reasons.

The rule that you're using to try to stomp all over Zombros is in relation to rules that add models to existing units - the purpose is very clear - to stop undead units getting extra models on the table that they didn't pay for.

Read literally it might stop the Zombros merging, but it's not clear as the merge ability is a unique special rule - if the GH rule does so, then it's doing it inadvertently - I don't think GW saw all the dozens of mass Zombro lists out there and thought "We better balance this as Zombros are overpowered". Accordingly I don't see there being a "consensus" against Zombros merging. You can continue to merge until they at least put a FB page answer ont he question or preferably an FAQ answer. It gives Death a decent budget battleline option, which they deserve when 3 Thundertusk Beastclaw armies are bringing undercosted broken Moonclan Grots (bravery 6 at range, 4+ save against shooting (they must be Liberators); and -1 to hit in melee) or absurdly cheap Savage Orruks (20 wounds for 100 points - say no more) and Order armies are bringing Judicators.

[deynon]

Universal consensus? Where I play the zombie can merge without any restraint simply no one for commodity does it over 60.

So this universal consensus is quite...not at all universal^^

[CoffeeGrunt]

For the record I play it as allowing merging, but I don't write off the other argument out of hand. Listening to the argument at least prepares me with references and counter-arguments when it comes to defending the strategy in a game.

[DodgyRoller]

This is my 1000pt list the idea is obvious buff up the grave guard (who have great weapons) with +1 a and give them the ability to attack twice from the necromancer. It's not broken but it is fun there are enough bodies in the army that at 1000pts it does well in most scenarios the only change I would consider is dropping the black Knights for summoning points and give the Wight the command trait to become a wizard .

[David Griffin]

@Nico @deynon

Okay so "consensus"  was clearly the wrong word, but prominent members of the community (see Facehammer, etc.) have cited merging zombies under GH as being illegal. I must stress that, as I said earlier, I am in favor of merging them, but it is important to understand both sides of the argument. 

@DodgyRoller

That list looks nice! I think you'll find those Grave Guard piling in and attacking twice is quite tasty :).

[Malakithe]

I prefer skellies. I treat them as I would clanrats. Disposable. Skellies make for a better standalone unit that doesn't need a lot of babysitting. 2 units of 20 for 1k. Park them somewhere as a road block. Back them up with a cheap Cairn Wraith or Banshee to spread DM and move on.

[deynon]

23 minutes ago, David Griffin said:

@Nico @deynon

Okay so "consensus"  was clearly the wrong word, but prominent members of the community (see Facehammer, etc.) have cited merging zombies under GH as being illegal. I must stress that, as I said earlier, I am in favor of merging them, but it is important to understand both sides of the argument. 

@DodgyRoller

That list looks nice! I think you'll find those Grave Guard piling in and attacking twice is quite tasty :).

prominent members?.... ahahahahah, based on what? I don't give a cent about who they are to say it. 

Based on what? The fact to be someone to say it doesn't make it valued. Illegal? what is the reasoning behind it? Citng someone saying but not the argument is the wrong path.

[Nico]

The most useful thing about the Zombros is that they give you a way to tick the Battleline Box and still hope to fit in some big heroes and named characters, e.g. Nagash or Mannfred plus an actual army of good units.

[the_prophecy]

On 10/29/2016 at 1:15 AM, Nico said:

The most useful thing about the Zombros is that they give you a way to tick the Battleline Box and still hope to fit in some big heroes and named characters, e.g. Nagash or Mannfred plus an actual army of good units.

yes that is aboluteley true. I´ve fielded this list yesterday:

 

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, Shield, Sword, Tomb Blade, Red Fury

Necromancer

Corpse cart

40 Zombies

120 Pts. for Summoning

 

I´ve Steamrolled my enemy. The zombie Block sat the whole game on a objective and nobody could move it away or kill it. The Vampire is a BEAST. With Red Fury he attacks twice in the Combat phase (in a row!) and annihilates almost everything you can field in AOS. I think this combination is way too powerful. The Corpse Cart is nice because of the -1 for enemy spells and +1 for Death Wizards. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

Don't you have to choose one or the other for the Corpse Cart? Also you need 2 Battleline minimum?

[the_prophecy]

 

11 minutes ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

Don't you have to choose one or the other for the Corpse Cart? Also you need 2 Battleline minimum?

No because you can set up two Units of 20 Zombies and than merge them together. I think the passive Ability of the Corpse Cart gives you both Abilities i have to look at the scroll