Dark Aelf (Shadowblades)

[chord]

Sorry to hear that the excitement is fading some.  Maybe you can add in some units to the army to help make it less predictable?

[Sarkazim]

I'm going to run them as Reavers for a few games.  That's more what I was hoping they'd play like, and could still keep the Assassins.  For the effort and cash I could just start a second army instead of trying to make it work.  I'm not shelving it though.  It's still hella fun because no one expects it, and I still like the models.  

I'm winning about 1/3 of my games, so it's not bad, but every battle is now an uphill fight.  I've yet to see anyone roll a 1 on Battleshock tests since we've talked about the possibility of stacking.  It'll happen, but even with the stacking I don't think it'll win me games.  Honestly, a Battalion scroll would be nice.  Something simple from forcing the opponent to roll 2 dice for Battleshock and take the lowest, or being able to shoot after a retreat are just two ideas I have.

Ive got time, and plenty of models to occupy that time.

[Sarkazim]

Annnd I'm back!  Sorry if this is Necro'd the thread, but felt it might be better to keep it all in one place rather than start a new thread on the same thing.

I just picked up the GHB17 and saw the points shift for my army.  I'm happy that I can get almost all of my 60 Riders for under 1.5k, since I have a pretty good idea of how that worked at 2k.  The downside is I'm very reluctant to add more Dark Riders.  The allies rule has opened so many doors for me, that it's difficult to know where to start.  So here is my current theory list.
 

Quote

Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Mistweaver Saih 
- General 
- Trait: Strategic Genius
Tenebrael Shard 
- Artefact: Obstinate Blade
4x Assassin
Battleline
60 x Dark Riders (20/15/15/5/5)

Total: 1960/2000

Only need to add 2 models to my previous list, and the Tenebrael Shard was given to me recently from a 40k mate who was using it as a Harlequin proxy.  No subterfuge there, just load him up with Assassins for a bomb and see how it goes.  With 4 Assassins I'll be able to assess each threat and just load up with something that is appropriate.  I'm back to the guessing game that originally drew me to the army because I could bluff it out and spread the Assassins out should they spend the resources to eliminate him before he does his thing.

The addition of the Mistweaver handles a few issues I had the army before as well.  It gives me a Caster, a way to deal Mortal Wounds, and a General that will start on the table that isn't Random Champion Dark Rider, though I may still go back to that.  I'm going with the 'Strategic Genius' trait, simply because I have loved the basic 'Inspiring Presence' and being able to try it on 2 units might make me a bit more resilient early game.  I have a feeling this won't be that great with the differences in movement values.  I'm going to try it out for a few games and see how it goes, but I've got a feeling I'll go back to the Dark Rider Champion as the General.

I've still got some rules 'problems' that I'm trying to address, but I'll bring those up at a later point after I've done my homework, and actually start playing again.  

----------
Personal update for those who want to read.

 

It's been a rough year.  Worked two jobs to pay off hospital bills, then had a long stretch of work at my main job.  All of this cut into my hobby time, and I could barely get in any time for 40k.  I was involved in a Motorcycle accident which then took me out of commission on top of that and may have put me back to where I was a year ago.  By the time I got back around to hobbying, it was all about 40k, and I've already been pushed away for now, mostly because of the ITC and waiting for my army to get an actual codex..  The local AoS community is happy to have me back!  So I'm back.

[someone2040]

The problem is your list is illegal. Because Mistweaver Saih and Tenebrael Shard aren't in a faction just yet, they've simply been lumped into an 'Aelf' faction. That faction is unable to be allies for any army, nor can allies be your General anyway. So the problem is, your Dark Riders aren't battleline in your army, because you can't be 'SHADOWBLADES' allegiance due to breaking the allies rules.

 

What you could consider is adding in some generic Darkling Covens battleline (Bleakswords or Darkshards). Gives the force something a little different, and makes the list legal.

 

Overall, I suspect the only reason Shadowblades can even create an army is because they meet the minimum requirements for doing so (Leader + Unit). Most factions with that few models I don't think you're really expected to make a full army out of. So it'll of course, be an uphill struggle to make an interesting list.

[Sarkazim]

I was originally under the impression that the Allies rule applied to any unit from the with the same Alliance?  I literally only just got the book today, so didn't see where I was able to pick my allies from until you posted this.  (I had only briefly looked at the points for what I already had when the book came out).  So it looks like I need to wait until they assign them to a faction, or add them as an ally.  Well, I do have the Black Dragon lying around, I can use him at least.  I'll have a look at the Darkling Covens as well.  I don't really want to add too many models right now, since I'm STILL trying to paint up the ones I have.

I'm already invested into this.  I own the 60 Dark Riders and 4 Assassins.  It was doing okay until they FAQ'd out some stuff.  I still love the army theme, and I am still trying to make it work.  The reduction in points for me is fantastic enough to get a little excited about fielding them again.  Still don't have any way of dealing Mortal Wounds, having any kind of Caster, or getting use out of ANY of the Artefacts, since all my Characters aren't even on the board.  The 'Null Drops' for each Assassin have been pretty helpful as my opponent will usually have 5 units on the board before I put my first one down.  

The Assassins are still VERY underwhelming, and I wasn't expecting much out of them with the Shard.  It was just a more effective and riskier delivery system that had the potential to do more.  I dropped down to 1 Assassin and when I found out that only the Characters/Leaders had to have the Artefacts it just took any steam left out of me.  I got WAY more use out of having the Artefact on one of my Dark Rider Champions who I had designated as my General.  So now it looks like I'm stuck in that boat until I figure out what I want to add to the list.

Thank You though.

[Thor]

I hope this doesnt come across as rude since it is not my intention. But you are playing / painting an army made out of 2 different models ? 

You really need to switch it up man. Or you will get bored out of your mind.  Take your losses. You can still use your dark riders and assassins in a much more balanced order force. 

More variety is good. Both for painting and list quality. Having dark riders as battleline doesnt really net you much.  

I hope you wont take offense. It just seems to me that you are stuck on an idea that's detrimental to your hobby. 

[Sarkazim]

No offense is taken.

I've never really been much of a WHFB player, and when AoS released, it was as simple as everyone at my FLGS asking me to play.  1 army wasn't that big of a deal, I didn't really need a 6th 40k army, and this is the one I settled on.  It may be boring, but it's simple, easy, and my turns go pretty fast.

Out of all of the available armies, models, fluff, etc.  They're the only models that appeal to me.  I like the game in general, but nothing else has even remotely caught my attention.  I've tried to start Stormcast, Slayers, and a Demon Army.  I've theory'd out and looked into doing a Chaos Dwarf, Kharadron Overlords, and even a Night Goblin list.  I still have about 1500 points of Nighthaunt (incl. a Mournghoul) as a backup/rainy day project, and that new box where I don't have to get a Mortis Engine is kinda nice.

I liked the simplicity of the army, and like quite a few players, built it based on one interpretation of the rules.  Most of those have been resolved against how I was playing, but up until that point I was fortunate to have a group that allowed me to play by my interpretation.  After getting a few games under my belt, I realized the playstyle I wanted was more like how they High Elf Light Cav played.  I even proxied a few games as them and things went about the same.  They were straight up Battleline, so it worked out until they were stuck as a compendium unit.  So it doesn't make sense to play an discontinued army when mine is still active.

Then I went on the forced Hiatus, and now I'm back.  Things have been updated, the scenarios look friendlier, and I have a little flexibility with the allies rule.  40k isn't appealing to me, but I'm craving some hobby time.  I was aware from the beginning how limited I would be with my choice, but I'm still happy with the choice, even with the setbacks.  

I get to roll a ton of dice for a relatively low model count, celebrate when it does it's job, laugh when I only manage to kill 2 models.  I get to really mess with some players because they just don't know what to,do, but quickly figure out that there was nothing to be afraid of.  The mobility is insane, the null drops make some opponents question their deployment, and the odd win when it appears I'm losing is great story telling.

All of that aside, this is about making the army work.  Like it or hate it, it's clearly an option, it made the cut, and the models are still available.  It might very well be an oversight, or something thrown together out of convenience, but it's what I've chosen.

[someone2040]

1 hour ago, Sarkazim said:

No offense is taken.

I've never really been much of a WHFB player, and when AoS released, it was as simple as everyone at my FLGS asking me to play.  1 army wasn't that big of a deal, I didn't really need a 6th 40k army, and this is the one I settled on.  It may be boring, but it's simple, easy, and my turns go pretty fast.

Out of all of the available armies, models, fluff, etc.  They're the only models that appeal to me.  I like the game in general, but nothing else has even remotely caught my attention.  I've tried to start Stormcast, Slayers, and a Demon Army.  I've theory'd out and looked into doing a Chaos Dwarf, Kharadron Overlords, and even a Night Goblin list.  I still have about 1500 points of Nighthaunt (incl. a Mournghoul) as a backup/rainy day project, and that new box where I don't have to get a Mortis Engine is kinda nice.

I liked the simplicity of the army, and like quite a few players, built it based on one interpretation of the rules.  Most of those have been resolved against how I was playing, but up until that point I was fortunate to have a group that allowed me to play by my interpretation.  After getting a few games under my belt, I realized the playstyle I wanted was more like how they High Elf Light Cav played.  I even proxied a few games as them and things went about the same.  They were straight up Battleline, so it worked out until they were stuck as a compendium unit.  So it doesn't make sense to play an discontinued army when mine is still active.

I think you're talking about the High Elf Reavers, which are actually no longer compendium and under the Swifthawk Agents faction now.

In fact, if you prefer the more Skirmishing factions, perhaps Swifthawks are right up your alley, but perhaps the models are not.

 

At the end of the day, you've chosen a faction which only has 2 units in it to be your main faction. So I think you're just going to need to figure out where you want really want the army to go and if you're really happy to do up 1600~ish points of just Assassins and Dark Riders. I think it's quite unlikely that Shadowblades will really get anything new in the future, and perhaps, the best that can be hoped for is they get merged into a new faction (But this seems unlikely).

I think in some ways, its a shame you've jumped into 60 Dark Riders. As if you really want to use them all, it really restricts your list options as it makes it very hard to go for a mixed army (Essentially, you'll need to buy models). 

But here are some lists I would consider running while embracing the play style you're aiming for, and to an extent, embracing the models you already have.

So list 1, uses only 45 of your Dark Riders and 2 of your Assassins. It however, has the flexibility of having a variety of models, including some infantry which you can use to hang back on objectives or more slowly move up the field. That being said, I'm unsure if this list really does much for you other than allowing you to include Mistweaver Saih and Tenebrael shard. It's definitely a very mixed list which doesn't feel particularly strong in any aspect.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Order - 2000 points

Sorceress - General, Tenacious

Misteaver Saih

Tenebrael Shard

2x Assassin

3x10 Darkshards (Battleline)

10x Executioners

9x5 Dark Riders (or whatever configurations you feel are best)

So lets take a look at list 2. This list allies in 2 units of Doomfire Warlocks. If you haven't built all your Dark Riders, then the Warlocks will give you a bit of magic in your list. Allowing you to cast mystic shield, arcane bolt or doomfire bolt. I think this will add a lot of flexibility to your list, you can buff a big unit of Dark Riders with Mystic Shield, or you can cause some mortal wounds with the more offensive spells.

Spoiler

Allegiance : Shadowblades (Order) - 1960 points

4x Assassin

15x Dark Rider

2x10 Dark Rider

4x5 Dark Rider

2x5 Doomfire Warlock

List 3 has you drop a unit of Dark Riders, but squeeze in another Assassin, a Sorceress and 20x Black Guard (Either 2x10 or 1x20 are both useful). The Black Guard will offer a unit that actually has rend in your army, while the Sorceress will give you a bit of help spellcasting. She can also potentially debuff the enemy with Word of Pain, but it's a bit hard to get off in a non-Darkling Covens list, and she'll most likely be relegated to Mystic Shielding a big unit of Dark Riders.

Spoiler

Allegiance : Shadowblades(Order) - 2000 points

4x Assassin

1x Sorceress

15x Dark Rider

2x10 Dark Rider

3x5 Dark Rider

2x10 Black Guard

That being said, overall I think (aside from painting the same models 60x over) the 2nd list with the Doomfire Warlocks is probably the strongest of the 3. Not only do you get 2 casters in that list, but they're essentially casters with 10 wounds. They also complement the strength of the army, which is that everything is super fast.

[Sarkazim]

I understand you're trying to help, so I'll go off that with my experiences so far.

I know you stated that I can put the DR into whatever groupings I like, but just to be clear, I will probably always use at least one block of 20.  I've been making the Champion of that unit the General, and simply using 'Inspiring Presence' on that unit.  It's been a pretty tough unit to remove and has been a solid rock (comparatively) to the rest of the army.  It's 40 wounds, 240 shots + another ~180 in Combat (I never get the full complement of 240 Melee attacks because of the size of the unit).  With the Dark Shields this one unit has really impressed me.  The other 3-4 units depending on how I'm feeling, have always fluctuated in size to support that block of 20. 

I like to keep the unit count relatively low for a variety of reasons.  The biggest one is maintenance/wound tracking is easier with the larger units, and a close second is having some control over who gets first turn.  Oddly enough I prefer to go second in most situations, and have lost more games by going first.  I've also won quite a few games by winning the initiative, and choosing to go second.  Blood and Glory, and Border War were two scenarios I did fairly well in.

I tried really hard to make the Doomfire Warlocks work.  They simply don't.  I ran small units, large units, even tried a game with 3 units to have all the spells at my disposal.  They're too expensive for what they do, and aren't worth building for matched play because they're hurt by the rule of 1.  As I said above, the army hurts for having any kind of Rend and lack of way of dealing Mortal Wounds.  I tried the Doomfire Warlocks for the Mortal Wounds, but the range of the spells are too limiting, and even when they managed to do some damage, they would never do enough to the units that I needed to address.  The Treeman with the 1+ re-rollable, and Dread Saurian are prime examples of why I needed them. Even the Assassins outperformed them here.  In the end the points investment wasn't worth the loss of damage output that I was able to gain from having more Dark Riders, since I still had to deal with the threats that they failed to kill.

I didn't see that Reavers were moved over to Swifthawk.  If they're the same ones that were able to Adv/Shoot or Shoot/Adv, then it's good to know they're still there.  Based on that I went and dug out the old list I used and modified it to bring it current with the list above.

Quote

Leaders
Mistweaver Saih 
Tenebrael Shard 
4xAssassin 

Battleline
20 x Dark Riders 
30 x Reavers (10/10/10)- Battleline

Total: 1960 / 2000

It looks like the Reavers are still straight Battleline units, as opposed to being Swifthawk specific.  So this should still work as a generic 'Order' army list.  I could be wrong.  This Reaver/Dark Rider combo worked out the best because the Reavers gave me more control over when/how to engage the enemy than a pure DR list.  The shooting was pretty much the same for the first two turns, but when it came to close quarters, the damage loss on the Reavers was noticable, which is why I dropped the list.  Against aggressive armies the DR outperformed the Reavers, and that's what the meta was at the time. That said, this list is very build-able with what I currently have.  I believe I'm sitting on 2 boxes of Wanderers that I bought for the head conversions, so I can just put the bows on the models instead of the Crossbows, and maintain the overall theme of my army.  It was just rough to track the hit/wound rolls on the different units, and I may have un-intentionally cheated for a few games while I was trying to work it out.

Here is an Alternative list that I've also considered, that might work out as well.  Back before I committed to doing the Dark Riders, Order Serpentis was a close option as well, and had more variety.  Short story, I didn't like the current line of Drakespawn Knights, and wasn't about to track down enough of the older ones to build them.
 

Quote

Leaders
Sorceress 
4x Assassin 

Battleline
70 x Dark Riders (20/15/15/10/10)
- Shadowblades Battleline

Behemoths
War Hydra 
War Hydra 

Total: 2480 / 2500

This allows me to get a caster to shield the Big Block of Dark Riders.  I get the two big behemoths that the Riders can manipulate around.  I've got it listed at the 2500 points because that would be upper limit.  I could swap out the Hydras/Sorceress fairly easy without breaking the Allies limit on the lower points.  I get to avoid having Drakespawn Knights that I don't like.  Should I decide to add them, I'll have to keep the numbers low to keep them as allies, so finding two of the older boxes won't be as much of a hassle as making them the mainstay unit of a full Serpentis list.

The other 2 lists aren't really appealing, but again mostly because of the models.  I REALLY do like Executioners, and have a great conversion in mind for them, but they're too slow as an ally for the army.  The few games I've proxied them in, they're really just an expensive clean up unit, or they won't do enough damage to save the game.  Thanks for the suggestions though.

[chord]

So glad this thread is back, I love the theme you have going with this army!

[chord]

Some of the new battle plans allow you to cap objectives for having 20+ models in a unit. This may work to your advantage

[Sarkazim]

Hey Chord!!

Yeah, I read the new Scenarios last night.  I've been reading the rules thread on that 20 model thing, but since my unit sizes are cap'd at 20, I realized that none of it applies to me since I just need to lose the one model.  I'm back to taking multiple Assassins because 'Duality of Death' exists, and like 'Three Places of Power', I need some way of dealing with that Scenario.  I don't want it to be an auto-loss, and I can't just sit and wait for my opponent to put heroes on the objectives to make use of my Assassins.  Also still waiting on a few rules things to get sorted out, but those horses have been flayed, cooked, and sent off for Glue, so won't go into those.

That's why I'm thinking about that second list, to have the two Behemoths to help out.  Just now realized that if I go back to the Reaver list, I could still hit the 2500 mark doing a combination of the two. 

Quote

Leaders
Mistweaver Saih 
Tenebrael Shard 
Sorceress 
2x Assassin 

Battleline
15 x Dark Riders 
40 x Reavers (10/10/10/10) - Battleline

Behemoths
2x War Hydra 

Total: 2480 / 2500

I get Casters who have signature spells that don't overlap, a smaller Shard Bomb that will hurt less when it doesn't work because I haven't invested so many points into it.  Still have the 6 characters and 2 Behemoths to cover all of the Scenarios.

I've got the Mistweaver Model on the way, so I'll have something that can double up as a Sorceress if I want.  I also still have the Dreadlord on Black Dragon that was given to me, which I can ally him in to 2k and see if he works as well.  He's definitely mobile enough. 

[chord]

10 minutes ago, Sarkazim said:

Hey Chord!!

Yeah, I read the new Scenarios last night.  I've been reading the rules thread on that 20 model thing, but since my unit sizes are cap'd at 20, I realized that none of it applies to me since I just need to lose the one model.  I'm back to taking multiple Assassins because 'Duality of Death' exists, and like 'Three Places of Power', I need some way of dealing with that Scenario.  I don't want it to be an auto-loss, and I can't just sit and wait for my opponent to put heroes on the objectives to make use of my Assassins.  Also still waiting on a few rules things to get sorted out, but those horses have been flayed, cooked, and sent off for Glue, so won't go into those.

That's why I'm thinking about that second list, to have the two Behemoths to help out.  Just now realized that if I go back to the Reaver list, I could still hit the 2500 mark doing a combination of the two. 

I get Casters who have signature spells that don't overlap, a smaller Shard Bomb that will hurt less when it doesn't work because I haven't invested so many points into it.  Still have the 6 characters and 2 Behemoths to cover all of the Scenarios.

I've got the Mistweaver Model on the way, so I'll have something that can double up as a Sorceress if I want.  I also still have the Dreadlord on Black Dragon that was given to me, which I can ally him in to 2k and see if he works as well.  He's definitely mobile enough. 

Sounds like a good plan, although the ally points are part of the 2K,  so you would need to get back down to 2K if you play the standard matched play point values .

I have reavers as part of my high elves they are a fun force to play with

 

[Sarkazim]

Easy enough to do.  I'd probably try both of these out for a few games if I get the Hydras/Sorceress.  These are just the variations off the Shadowblades list.  If I go back to Reavers, then even more combinations open up.  Especially if I run minimum Reavers.  

List 1

Quote

Leaders
2x Assassin 
Battleline
60 x Dark Riders (20/15/15/10)
- Shadowblades Battleline
Behemoths
2x War Hydra 

Total: 2000 / 2000

List 2

Quote

Leaders
Sorceress 
3 x Assassin

Battleline
60 x Dark Riders (20/15/15/10)
- Shadowblades Battleline
Behemoths
War Hydra 

Total: 1960 / 2000

The problem really lies with my skepticism and experience.  Like the Reaver lists from before, it's hard to drop the damage output for variety, and have the new units make up for the loss in damage.  The Reavers mobility worked well with the Dark Riders, but if they don't do the damage of the Riders they're sub'd out for then it hurts more late game.  So I would have to hope that the addition of Mistweaver/Sorceress, the Shard, or the Hydras are going to make up for the loss of the additional Dark Riders.  Things are even harder assess now with the point drop on the Dark Riders, since it's simply easier to get more Dark Riders.  I can easily see myself getting 2 more boxes to take me up to 70.  Sorceresses/Assassins are the same cost, so I can take 4 of them in any combination I want and sit at an even 2k right there.  

Same with the Assassins.  Once I learned that these 'Masters' were the weakest available in the game, it was easier to drop them for more Riders.  I had more success running 1 Assassin, and was only running him since my Dark Rider Champ can't have the Artefact.  I've tried all the Artefacts on the Assassin, and it's sad that they're all better on the Champion than the Assassin.  Hoarfrost was probably the most effective, since putting the wound on the enemy character before dying had the longest lasting effect.  The Obstinate Blade giving some rend wasn't enough to finish off the target, but did them down to levels where they had to switch to defensive.  Anything that heals (Treeman, Saurian, Stormcast, Death) it was just a delay.  The Relic Blade with the Damage bonus just led to too many rules debates.  While it was a great way to sort out who I was never playing again, it just wasn't worth the hassle pre-game. 

I feel like I'm pretty fortunate to have a group of players who allow me to play the lists both as proxies and with alternate/unpopular rules interpretations as long as they know before game.  I'm not really accustomed to this, since the 40k side are such hardline players.  I also think a large part of it is how much my army screws with how everyone else looks at their army.  When I show up, it's just an entirely different experience.  I remember playing a Khorne based army, and gave him a good run for his money because he had ZERO idea of how to play against my army.  It's hard to build a TAC list when one of the players has such a rare and unique army.  I'd like to maintain that if I could.  

[chord]

I sort of prefer list #2 as it gives you a little more flexibility (mystic shield, arcane bolt, special spell, unbind).  The Hyrda would be a great addition to dropping on an objective since it heals. 

You make a very good point about it being a unique army.  Any army without synergies means most people won't know what to target first since most armies use synergies a lot.  

[rokapoke]

13 hours ago, Sarkazim said:

I know you stated that I can put the DR into whatever groupings I like, but just to be clear, I will probably always use at least one block of 20.  I've been making the Champion of that unit the General, and simply using 'Inspiring Presence' on that unit.  It's been a pretty tough unit to remove and has been a solid rock (comparatively) to the rest of the army.  It's 40 wounds, 240 shots + another ~180 in Combat (I never get the full complement of 240 Melee attacks because of the size of the unit).  With the Dark Shields this one unit has really impressed me.  The other 3-4 units depending on how I'm feeling, have always fluctuated in size to support that block of 20. 

FYI, per the General's Handbook 2017, when playing a Pitched Battle your general must be a Leader. It's under the Army Roster heading on page 77.

[Sarkazim]

Well that's now one more thing that I can't benefit from.  On the upside, it's one more thing I no longer have to worry about, since I'll never really use it now.  I also now no longer need to run full 20 block units, when 15 will work just fine.  Can the allies at least be assigned the Artefacts?  I'd hate to ****** that up as well.  

Drawbacks aside, I played a 1.5k game today just to see.  Same problem as before where I get to roll a ton of dice and hope to kill something.  It looks impressive.  Even my opponent was shocked when I picked up 30 dice and rolled them TWICE for just the one unit, then rolled another 45 for each of the supporting units, and then be lucky to kill 3 models.  It was my Stormcast opponent first time playing against my army and he was equally intrigued.

What I did notice was that the number of models that I needed to kill was much less than I was used to.  While the Dark Riders may not be a very good unit, they are now a very cheap unit.  He had approx 29 models and 5 characters.  I had 50 models and 3 characters.  I had almost double the Models/Wounds, depending on how you compare it.  The conversion was pretty much a 1-1 trade as far as damage was concerned.  Battleshock tests gave him a bit of an edge, but it wasn't enough to stop him from bleeding faster.  The large block of 20 was sitting at 8 models by the end of the game.  The 2 units of 15 were over 10 strong at the end.

The Assassins underperformed again.  The main Assassin with the Rend-blade doing the most damage at 4 on the turn he was revealed.  The other two Assassins did a combined 3 Wounds total for the the remaining time they were in the game.  Both of them had a round each where they failed to get a single unsaved wound through against other Leaders.  All 3 were dead at the bottom of 3.  The DRs were much more reliable at dealing with the threats.  I'm more and more convinced that the Dark Riders might be better off without a General, especially now that I won't be able to really do much with mine other than keep him hidden as long as possible to deny my opponent killing him.

The two factors that won me the game, outside of my opponents inexperience, was that I managed to hold priority on all but turn 2, and inflict casualties first.  The second thing was on the turn I killed his general with the Battle Shock Bubble,  having his Retributors roll a 1 on his Battleshock test.  'Sow Terror' kicked in and finished the unit off.  

-----

Looking ahead, I'm leaning toward the Double Hydra list, and going to the 70 Dark Riders.  I believe they might make a good partnership with the mobile Dark Riders leading the way, providimg some covering fire, and Assault screen/bait for the Hydras.  The Hydras will be good anchor points for when I need to retreat and hopefully give my opponents something to consider, instead of just trying to chase me down.  

It'll then really come down to the Hydras being with the cost vs. taking another 15-20 Dark Riders.  I'll also need to find a balance of spreading the Dark Riders out into smaller units, or keeping some larger to maintain that control over getting First turn.  I'm kind of worried that in order for the Hydras to work, I'll become more reliant on having to go first.

Other than that, it's just the lingering Rules issues I'm still waiting on an answer.  

BEST part though, was that both my Opponent and I had FUN, Laughs, and were able celebrate each other's victories, and mourn each other's losses.

[Sarkazim]

...

[someone2040]

My understanding is that what you can and can't do with allies comes down to how the particular allegiance abilities are described.

In your case, since you're running a Shadowbloades army with the Order allegiance, the Order allegiance does not prevent allies from been given magical artefacts or using the battle trait so you're fine. In general, more specific allegiances only allow those that share the allegiance to gain artefacts and use the battel trait (for example, in a Free Peoples army, only FREE PEOPLES heroes can gain artefacts, and the abilities only effect Free Peoples units).

 

For the Assassins, give the +1 Damage weapon a go. I ran the math from 3+ save and worse, and overall, it's just better all the time (The only time Rend -1 even equalled it was against heroes with a 3+ save, every other scenario was better for the +1 Damage). I also think, that of course, you need to pick your targets. Can't be expecting a 80 point Assassin to waltz into a Lord Celestant and take him down (Although, 4 wounds is not that far off).

In fact, point for point, Assassin with +1 Damage has better damage than Tenebrael Shard (But he of course, does have a few other tricks to play out).

 

In terms of the Dark Riders. Personally feel if I were running the army, 5's would be better. More leaders to gain +1 hit and less susceptible to battleshock.

The last point about battleshock I think is important. In a unit of 5, barring bravery decreases, the most you can lose to battleshock are 2 models if 3 are slain from the unit. However, with larger units, while they get a boost to their bravery, they're also more susceptible to focused fire.

If I kill 7 Dark Riders between 2 of my units against a unit of 15, I'm pretty happy about that, you're going to be losing more to battleshock. However, against a unit of 5, I need to figure out if I want to split my fire, or wipe out a single unit which may mean I waste damage overkilling the unit or I may not kill it at all.

The thing that big units get benefits from just aren't in your list - buffs. Your assassin's are all hiding, so can't use Inspiring Presence, and you don't have any magic that buffs the units. So you're basically at the whims of terrain, specifically Damned Terrain as you'd easily take D3 mortal wounds to add +1 to hit on your Xbows and Spears on a larger unit of 15 or 20, but not worth it on a unit of 5.

[Kaleun]

@Sarkazim

well Sir you have my respect, because you do try to make the Shadowblades work and the ancient Dark Elves proud. However it will be very tough for sure.

Lets look at your army. The biggest Plus you have is your movement. You are playing a pure Cav. army with the 14" mobility of horses. We should capitalise on that. Your survivability is mediocre but what you really lack is damage. Especially Mortal wounds and rend to deal with those pesky 1+ rerollable monstrosities in the meta out there. Also I wouldnt use the Reavers. You pay a whole lot more Points just for survivability and not for damage compared to your Dark Riders.

Therefore I strongly disadvise the Hydra or footslogging Sorceresses like the Saih. The Hydra is a Anvil Unit, dont expect damage from it for ist big Point cost. Personally I dont use mine anymore.
Look out for the new Anvilguard Allegiance in the Firestorm Campaign! You wont use your Shadowblades primarily, but if you grab the box with the Realm Reaver battalion might be able to solve your damage Problems with the allegiance ability of the Anvilguard (ergo you will take 30 Dark Riders as allies)

Second Thought: You might want to use what you already have and Play a lot of Dark Riders. The Order Unit I really, strongly and ABSOLUTLY recommend for you is the Hurricanum! You said you are throwing a lot of dice without much killing potential. This is the nature of the Crossbow you whield. However if you increase the hit by one (Close Combat AND ranged) you will find yourself at a much better position. The Hurricanum can be fast enough to stay with your cav and also provides some much needed Mortal Wounds Support. You keep the order allegiance and take the Dreadlord on Black Dragon as your general (take the Lance+Shield). Because you loose your Battleline-Dark Riders now you must add 3x10 Darkshards/Bleakswords to your army. Might be good for Objectives and as Chaff to shield your important Units during the first Battle Rounds against first turn charges.

 

[chord]

I wonder in List #2 dropping an assassin and putting in a balewind vortex.  That would allow the sorceress to reach out really far with mystic shield or arcane bolt.  That arcane bolt will give you MW's.    Just brainstorming on the fly 

Order allegiance gives you the re-rollable battleshock so hopefully that helps minimize the risk to your larger units.

Phoenix Stone has been updated to heal you in Every hero phase not just your own. Could keep an assassin around longer. 

 

[Sarkazim]

Quite a bit to respond to here, so this one will be a bit long. 
Note: I feel I should add that I'm NOT trying to be one of those guys asking for advice then ignoring it.  My intent isn't to disagree with you, but reveal my thoughts behind my decisions based on my experience and goals.  Your Feedback is appreciated and I hope to just illustrate WHY I choose against it.

@someone2040:
- I'm happy that I can at least give the Artefacts to the allies, so it'll come in handy if/when I get around to allying in Leaders.  I will be doing the Dreadlord first, simply because someone gave me the model so it's already in my collection.  I think I'm more comfortable with the Hydras, but I'm just barely at the stage of weighing in the worth at this point, and not fully committed to it yet.  (This will be covered in more detail below)
- The +1 Damage weapon has actually caused a minor rules issue because of the way the Poison is worded.  The Artefact changes the weapon damage from a 1 to 2.  Being overyly specific, Black Lotus Venom changes the damage the weapons inflict, and not the damage of the weapon itself.  So the two interpretations are that the Black Lotus Venom+Artefact can be treated as 'D3(+1 Artefact) Damage rather than 1', or 'D3 Damage rather than 1'(+1 Artefact).  The first one is the more common one, and most players will let me play that way, but usually not until AFTER their first game against my army.  Since AoS is meant to be a stress less game for me, I just found it easier to pick one of the other ones.
- The MSU discussion has both been theorized and tested.  At Bravery 7 with a re-roll, I don't really feel threatened until I lose 3 models which is 6 wounds.  As above, I preffered the one unit of 20 for 'Inspiring Presence', but it looks like I won't be taking advantage of that until I decide to go to an Order allegiance instead of a Shadowblades one.  Which is fine since anything over 10 models made it difficult to get in all the melee attacks or make use of cover.  I like having blocks of 15 for the +1 Bravery early game and then be small enough after a few casualties be just the right size to get all the attacks and make use of cover. I initially built the list around this idea.  Under the previous points, 15 Dark Riders+1 Assassin was an even 500 points.  So 1k was 2x that, 1.5 was 3x and so on.  The intent was to go to 2500, so I've got the conversion bits to spread out over 5 units as far as unit designations go.  The other reasons I like to keep it low is to maintain a low drop count for going first, and keeping the wound tracking down to a minimum.  When I ran the MSU list, it was just an unnecessary hassle to keep 16 different wound counters on the board with how mobile I was.  So yeah, laziness was also a factor.
- I never expected an 80 model to do much to a 240+ mounted character.  That's not where my frustration lies.  My frustration with the Assassins is investing into 320 points into 4 Assassins and all of them dying before that same character is reduced to 1/2 wounds, and the one that did the damage was the one that I had to assign the artefact to.  I'm happy that the 'Reveal All' issue has been resolved, so that I can pop one out, see how it performs BEFORE committing another Assassin into the fray.  Out of all my games, the ONLY real success story I've had that is worth mentioning is that 3 of them managed to outright kill an Old Blood on Carnasaur on turn 1.  So I'm aware the potential is there, but it's reliably inconsistent.

2 Things that have, or can, change this style.
- With the lowering of the points cost, I find that I have hanging points left over.  All 3 of the Triumphs that I'm now likely to see are going to be better utilized in a larger unit.  2 out of the 3 could give me the added security of getting that crucial attack in when I need it.  I fully expect to declare it's use then roll so well that I won't need, because the dice god of chaos is fickle like that, but it's an element of the army that factors into the decision.
- 'Sow Terror and Confusion' 
NOTE:  I'm mentioning this again, but I STRONGLY Request that we don't discuss it here.  A thread was opened up, it has been discussed, the rules question has been sent off and there isn't much more to be done about it now.  
The word 'Any' is missing from 'Sow Terror and Confusion'.  So my one ace up my sleeve might be the possibility that this ability actually stacks for each unit of Dark Riders within 14".  Regardless of whether you think it does or doesn't, my regular group has decided to allow me to have this until it gets FAQ'd, I bring it up before EVERY game with a new opponent instead of mid game, if my opponent doesn't agree I still play whatever is agreed to.  It's been an interesting mechanic by either interpretation as it tells me to not Focus fire units down to force more Battleshock Tests in the hopes of getting my opponent to roll 1's.  The MOST success I've had with it was a Seraphon player constantly casting the spell to roll 2 dice for Battleshock Tests out of habit, and this was in a game where we didn't stack the dice.  

If this get's answered that it does stack I will MSU so hard that Mortal Wounds won't really matter.

@Kaleun: So much is mixed.
- I didn't build the army for its survival.  40k is my main game, so I just really wanted a simple army where I could move to where I wanted to go, and basically Rapid Fire.  After a few games I saw that it's strength was a single 6 attacks per turn as a Battleline unit.  I'm not entirely familiar with the other armies, but at a glance I either saw units that were just as fast OR had just as many attacks.  Those that did, weren't Battleline units or needed to be buffed or maintain a larger unit size.  Dark Riders maintain this regardless of size, despite them not being quality attacks.  GHB17 made it even crazier finding a unit that is as fast, has that many dice, for that CHEAP!!!
- I've applied a Horde Mentality to something that is not considered a horde.  I don't need to do the complicated math to get an end result and base the army off of it because of simple statistics.  Shooting alone, a 50 DR army will roll 150 dice.  That's 50 hits, for 25 wounds (not accounting for the Champions).  Even with a 4+ save, that's still ~12 wounds.  Basic Statistics / Gambler's Fallacy kicks in and shows that I will never roll enough dice in my lifetime to see that average, but that's not the goal.  Over the course of a game, and by extension the life of the army, I will be rolling more dice than most of my opponents.  So I will be more likely to see that average and the outliers simply because my sampling size will be larger.  It really shouldn't matter, but I actually enjoy the element of having cataclysmic-ally devastating rolls and having those really good rolls show up more frequently than running a more elite army.  
- While I didn't plan on them being survivable, the Dark Shields are amazing.  I'm squishier outside of melee than I am in it.  Outside of melee, I have have phenomenal control over what gets hit because of the mobility on the army.  Once in combat, I haven't crumbled nearly as fast as I thought I would.  This has allowed me to really take advantage of Retreating.  I make Retreats more than most players I've seen, and it has been critical in winning most of my games where the objectives have been concerned.  That 14" move with +D6" for running has allowed me to retreat well outside of threat range from my opponents assault and get around the board.  This has also helped me avoid being boxed in, especially in games where I go second, charge in, then win the Initiative and retreat out the other side of my opponents army.  It's also why I really want ANY caster for Mystic shield more than any actual spell that might be brought to the table.
- The advantage behind the Reavers wasn't their effectiveness.  It was more them being a standard Battleline unit, that I could easily substitute/convert what I've already purchased instead of investing more money into models I either didn't want, can't afford, etc.  After a few games with them, I later realized that they were the playstyle I would've preferred, would've definitely been easier on the wallet (not that finding Dark Riders on discounts has been particularly hard), and less stressful.  I also found that I was winning far less despite enjoying how much faster the games were going, and was a little bitter inside that my Dark Aelves couldn't do what the the little good guys could.  I refocused back on Shadowblades and just did my best to figure out the army and have become slowly more confident with my choice.  

I was happy to hear about the Allies rule giving me more options, but seeing myself restricted to the other Dark Aelves pretty much only put Serpentis as an option simply because that's really the only other line in order that I like.  I've had numerous discussions on the Hurricanum and it's benefits already.  Hiding Assassins inside it not only made them a threat, but it also gave the Hurricanum some defenses that can't be dealt with by ranged short of eliminating the Hurricanum.  If it was really about making the army have some synergy, GW's Stormcast baby is an allied option.  2-3 Venators and/or a Relictor (if thats the anti-caster one) would go a long way in providing some of help I need.

- I'm aware the Hydra's aren't killers, and that they're Anvils.  Which is what I really need.  The Hero/Behemoth Scenario that I was hoping would go away, is the bane of my army plain and simple.  The best I've been able to do up until now is drop the Assassins off on the way.  While it was nice to know that my opponent couldn't stop them from scoring the objectives because they can't kill them, they also never got to attack and were pretty much exposed and usually dead afterwards.  GHB17 gave me a glimmer of hope by dropping the objectives to 2, and allowing me to add Behemoths without switching out to a tax Battleline unit to be able to accomplish that.  Being able to have an alternative for this scenario while also protecting my retreating Dark Riders sounds like it's a role they were made for.  Their damage output will be enough to work with 'Sow Terror and Confusion' without relying on the Rend-less Dark Riders.  Not the greatest, but neither is the army.

Short story, and this is the hard part to define an actual breaking point outside of a gut feeling, is that expanding the army is difficult.  I obviously don't mind putting money into the hobby, but I've hit that point where I have a functioning Shadowblades force, despite it not being top tier effective.  So when I look at expanding the force, if that expansion doesn't 'Feel' like it's going to be worth the investment, then I'm going with @Thor, cutting my losses, and moving on.  The Hydras are in there not only as the practical, but because I simply like the model and easily see myself getting them.  Little more motivated now that I can toss them in to my Shadowblades for the above reasons.  

** It's why I've been collecting a Nighthaunt army on the side for a 'Rainy Day' project.  As the only other line that moderately appeals to me, I've been taking any undecided hobby stuff and making purchases here and there and it's grown to a very sizeable force.  I noticed they got their own separate bonuses.

@chord:
I'm cap'd at 400 points of Allies on a 2k game.  While I would LOVE to have a Sorceress in there along with the 2 Hydras, its not going to happen until I play a 2500 point game.  On the upside, with all I've learned, I've been able to keep my lists down to 50-60 Dark Riders, so no need to buy another 10 just yet.  I saw that the Artefact healed, but they haven't survived.  The Assassins are ignored on the turn they've popped up since they've already attacked.  Then in the following phase, the general with the Artefact is the first to go.  

Here is the list I've come up with, and think I'm going to work toward at this point:
 

Quote

Leaders
Assassin - General /Trait: Legendary Fighter / Artefact: Relic Blade (@someone2040 Suggestion)
4xAssassin (80)

Battleline
50 x Dark Riders (10/10/10/10/10)- Shadowblades Battleline

Behemoths
2x War Hydra - Allies

Total: 2000 / 2000

 

[Kaleun]

You write a lot, but I still cant find your goal or vision where you want to go with your army list. You can use a lot of course for friendly games and such and bring anything you like to the table. Do you want to be more competitive? Then I wouldnt put my money on two hydras or perhaps even more assassines.

Assassine is 80 Points and the Hydra clocks in at 200 Points.

 

PS: Not sure if the Handlers have each the attacks listed in the Warscroll. If you decide they dont, then you must halfe the Damage of them in this table

[chord]

@Sarkazim

  Great reply!  In fact this is my favorite thread on the whole site!   Yeah I missed the point total of the allies.  I agree the Hydra will give you a lot to work with.  I think your opponents will focus on that leaving you to leverage your assassins and dark riders.  Which is exactly the theme of the shadowblades right?  Strike from the shadows when your opponent has their head turned!

[Sarkazim]

43 minutes ago, Kaleun said:

You write a lot, but I still cant find your goal or vision where you want to go with your army list. You can use a lot of course for friendly games and such and bring anything you like to the table. Do you want to be more competitive? Then I wouldn't put my money on two hydras or perhaps even more assassins.

Yes, I have my days where I do write much.  Today it was simply because it was cold and I didn't want to get out of bed.  Especially since I don't have to work today.

The goal vision is simply 'How to make Shadowblades' work.  I think I stated this earlier in the thread after committing to Shadowblades.  It's how I learned the hobby, and don't think too many players look for the cool models either based on fluff or the miniatures, then learn how to succeed with the army.  'Rule of Cool' and all that.  Too much netlisting these days, and not very many individual flavor armies out there that reflect a personality.  Winning doesn't mean anything if your list looks exactly like every other winning list as the same players who play the army.  Since I can't wish the Internet to disappear from list building, it's all I can do.

No, I don't necessarily want to be more competitive in AoS.  I have 40k for that, so if I want to attend a tournament, it'll more likely be with that.  I've also reached a point in my life where I don't want my hobby and free time to be something where it adds stress to my life.  Out of my entire 'Team' from back when I was playing competitively, only 3 of us are still playing with life taking over.  When I get the time off to hobby, I don't want to spend it doing something where all I want to do is reach across the table and choke a bloke. 

The lack of any competitive 40k events worth attending (and no I don't count ANYTHING ITC as actual 40k), might drive me toward an AoS tournament.  I'd go simply to be guaranteed the 3-5 games against players that are outside of my meta, and for the reactions when the 60 horses on the table just looks impressive.  The old tourney player in me restricts myself to a 'Matched Play' style simply because it's easiest to find a game with minimal argument, which is why I'm not building open lists.  The fact I own a Shard already, means I'll play some games with it, but it's difficult for me to go out and purchase something when it's just one more thing I've have to clear with my opponent first.  I already have a few things I need to clear up with my opponents despite having only 2 Warscrolls.

This is the only forum I'm really active on anymore, and again only recently returned from a forced absence.  The response of 'The best way to run Shadowblades is to pick something else' has been really kept back to a minimum, with some of the more popular/competitive players even chiming in with encouragement and advice, instead of 'You're an idiot!'.  While it still does exist, it's kept to a minimum here and I hope that doesn't change.  Much...

-----
Thank you for the Table, and while the numbers are important they don't help with how they actually apply on the table.  While I haven't fully committed to getting the Hydras yet, I'm thinking the speed and damage output of the DR's will be enough to address any real threats to the Hydras, provide a screen, or bait the opponents making it easier for the Hydras to get dug in.  Which would be unique to this setup, as in a more traditional list, I see the Hydras being hung out to dry instead of being the unit in the rear.  Going to take a bit to sit and think about if THAT is going to be worth experimenting with.  

I already own 4 Assassins, and the Shard is being given to me.  So I can easily proxy out the Shard as the Assassin-General, so the investment is there.  I'll probably pick up 1 Hydra since I already like the model sculpt, and can use it.  I have the Dragonlord, so can proxy the second one at that point and see how it goes.  That right now is the cheapest way to expand on this army, which is where I'm probably going to take it.  Every other option so far just screams at me to take advantage of the new Nighthaunt box.

EDIT: Yes, the Hydra Warscroll has the Handlers attacks on it.  It's treated as a single model, so I believe it's interpreted as 2 attacks total and not 2 attacks per actual 'body' representing each Handler. Don't know if this factors into your numbers or not.