Dark Aelf (Shadowblades)

[Sarkazim]

Jumping into AoS and narrowing down which lists.  It was originally a toss up between Dark Aelfs and Chaos Dwarves.  While I like the Dwarves a bit more, it meant getting FW, and all the hassle that goes along with that, as opposed to just being able to have my local Warhammer/FLGS get anything I might want/need.  The other minor determining factor there is a place that is not going to carry the Fantasy line anymore and there is quite a bit of Dark Elf stuff that's going cheap.

Shadowblades
Assassin
Assassin
15 Dark Riders
15 Dark Riders

Right now, I'm leaning toward Shadowblades, mainly because I like the idea behind them.  The models are cool enough and I've got a good idea in mind for them.  Only having 2 units means makes it easy to make a reference sheet.  Each 500 pt increase is 1 Assassin and 15 Dark Riders.  While this might not seem like much, it appears to become more interesting at higher points because the unit sizes become less static.  At 1500, I can run the (15/15/15) like the setup, but I can also run (15/10/10/5/5).  At 2k I can run (20/15/15/5/5) or (20/10/10/10/10).  The reason this is relevant is that I can have extreme fun playing a 'Cup Game' with the Assassins.  Did I put them in the big unit or small ones?  Did I put them in one unit, double em up, or spread em out?  I'll get to decide on a game by game basis, and while it might not be effective, it sounds like a TON of fun.  Either way, I can get some pics up in the gallery so that it's not so lonely.

Order Serpentis
Dreadlord on Dragon
5 Drakespawn Knights
5 Drakespawn Knights
1 Drakespawn Chariot
1 War Hydra

From what I can tell, this is the bare minimum strip down list for the Formation, but it comes in at a clean 1k.  It has a bit more flexibility than the Shadowblades, This list really starts to appeal to me at the 1.5k mark, since I get to add a 2nd War Hydra for the cost of one more Chariot and Knights.  Not as thrilled about doing that a 3rd time for a 2k list for some reason, which is odd because I'm actually fine with doing it for the Shadowblades.  Maybe I'm just weird.

Anyways, that's where I'm at.  I only want to start with one or the other and get to 1.5k.  I'm have not been a Tourney player in a long time, and I have 40k for that. I'd like to go to 2k in case I actually do go to an event since that seems to be the points level they're going to be at.  I still have a lot of questions about the game, so any tips/pointers there could help.  I'm also using this to brush up my painting skills after recently painting a Bloodthirster for a friend, I caught the bug.  

Thanks.

 

[Sarkazim]

Got some rules questions (and maybe this isn't the place to ask).  I haven't really played games since it came out, and I'm still waiting for my GHB.  I've been watching a few batreps, and quite a few of them are new players learning the game, so I'm a little confused when I see a few things.  Are there units with rules that allow them to run and shoot?  Are there Command Abilities?  Not a big deal as I'll probably learn this.

1 - General/Warlord?  Does this have to be a model that is setup on the actual table?  That's what I'm getting, but not sure how it works with the Assassin.  Can I have an Assassin as my General?  Will it have to be some random joe on the board?  This could have an impact on the size of my units pre-game, and which unit is going to carry a big bulls-eye on it during the game.  If I can make an Assassin my Leader, does he have the generic Command Ability and can I use it before he is revealed?

2 -Shooting while in Combat?  So shooting units still get to shoot while in melee?  If they do, does it have to be against the units that they are in combat with?  Is LoS tricky with situations like this?  

3 - Damage is assigned to a single model until it's dead.  I saw quite a few batreps where they didn't finish off a wounded model when the attacks came from a different unit.  Is this true?  If it is, what about when a model has different attacks?  (This might just be a 40k side of me coming out, but do I resolve the Spears from the Drakespawn Knights, and the do the mounts?  Or do we resolve all of the attacks, saves until we get a complete pile of damage from one source?  

4 - Points.  I noticed that the points for most units are per 5 models, and that you have to pay for a full 5 even if you don't take the full amount.  So a unit of 6 costs exactly the same as a unit of 10?  I can't seem to find an answer linking the two specifically together.  So is it legal to pay for a full amount of models but still divide them up within the unit size restrictions.  ex.  Lets say I purchase 40 models, it's an even number but I want to run 5 units of 8?  Is that legal, or is the individual cost of each unit applied making each unit of 8 the SAME cost as if each unit were 10 models?  

Any help would be appreciated.  I'm going to check out a local group soon to watch a few games so maybe they can help me.  I'm still leaning more toward the Dark Riders.  This is also due to the fact that I went to the clearance to pick up the Lord on Black Dragon since it's a cool model, and it was already gone.  


 

[Mr_Legs]

Hey mate, I'll try and answer some of these questions. Bear in mind that I'm still learning the ropes myself - if I'm wrong about any of the following, someone please correct me.

1. I do not believe the model has to be placed if it has rules that allow otherwise, as with the Assassin. However, I do not believe you can use any of his traits/command abilities until such as time as he is revealed (consider this his actual deployment).

2. Shooting into, out of, or within combat doesn't incur any penalty, and is resolved as normal. As far as the game is concerned, it's just another attack. IMO this is a balance issue since ranged weapons behave more or less like really long melee weapons.

3a. Damage is assigned to a single model until it's dead, prioritizing the model with the fewest wounds remaining. Spreading wounds around models to maintain the longevity of a unit is not allowed. However, you choose which model(s) are removed as the wounds are resolved. 

3b. As far as resolving attacks, you resolve wounds for a unit once the attacking unit has made all of its attacks against that unit. Also, from the rules: "if a model has more than one attack, you can split them between potential target units as you wish. If a model splits its attacks between two or more enemy units, resolve all of the attacks against one unit before moving onto the next one."

4. Generally speaking, units are purchased in multiples of their base/minimum size, with their cost in the General's Handbook reflecting the minimum size. So yes, with a minimum size of 5, 8 models in a unit would cost you the same as 10. Gets a bit frustrating when units are sold in boxes with numbers that aren't multiples of their base size (e.g. 16 models in a box for a unit with base size 10).

Hope that helps.

 

[Sarkazim]

You've cleared up the second part of the damage confusion.  From what I've READ, is that all damage is assigned to a model and must be assigned until it dies.  This is also appears to be written based off a single unit's attacks (or at least that's the argument).  What I've SEEN in quite a few reports is that your opponent appears to be able to start the process over, when the damage is from a different source.  

Example:  Ghouls hit Stormcast killing 1 and leaving another one wounded.  Stormcast go, killing a few ghouls.  A second unit of ghouls attacks the Stormcast, and he assigns the wounds to an un-wounded model (before the wounded one), removing it from being within 3" of a 3rd ghoul unit.  While the outcome for models in the combat isn't changed, the model removal did have an impact.  I think removing models preventing another unit from piling in, or even attacking is brilliant, but can't help but think he had to kill off the wounded model first.  I can see the rule swinging either way.

I don't think you understood my question.  I'm perfectly aware that a single unit of 6-9 models is going to cost the same as a unit of 10.  All I've been told is that you must pay X points for every 5 models.  I haven't gotten an answer if that I must pay X points for every 5 models per unit.  I understand that the points are nicely tied to the boxed sets now, but I'm not seeing unit sizes being tied to the box sets.  

Example:  I follow the guidelines and pay for 30 Drakespawn riders, but only required to have 3 Battleline units.  Is there something forcing me to run the units in multiples of 5?  Or can I run 14/8/8?  I'm meeting the points restriction by paying for a full 30 units, while staying within the min/max size of each unit.  I see this as a way of breaking up some of the inflexibility with a rigid structure, and getting some variation in a list.

I know this might be answered when I get my GHB, but if it doesn't show up this week, then I want to get some minis anyways.

Hope this explains things.

[Mr_Legs]

That method of allocating wounds to new models sounds completely wrong to me, but I might be wrong. Would you have a link to one of those reports?

Regarding unit size, I see what you mean now. In that case no, points must be allocated on a unit-by-unit basis and cannot be shared among multiple units. With the Drakespawn example given, you can run 14/8/8 but you'd have to pay for 15/10/10 (see attached).

On another note, I'm assuming that you're planning to run the Ebondrake Warhost with that Order Serpentis list you posted. The list itself comes out at 1000 pts clean, but to get the battalion itself is another 60 pts, which would take you over the 1000 pt limit. Given that all those units are already at minimum strength, I'm not sure you can actually fit the battalion in at 1000 pts.

[Kramer]

Hi guys,

I reckon the battlereports you watch are probably a bit older. It was wrongly worded at launch and later rectified. The rule is you have to keep assigning wounds to the same model. no matter the source or turn. You only get the choice once.

About the unit sizes there are two sources/rules that you must abide to. 

1. the point per set amount. 

2. the unit size as described in the warscroll. 

so that means, taking dreadspears for example, 10 spears for 80p, 10-20 spears for 160p. So you cannot divide 20 spears into 3 units as that would break the second rule (minimum of 10)

 

hope it helped. 

6 hours ago, Sarkazim said:

You've cleared up the second part of the damage confusion.  From what I've READ, is that all damage is assigned to a model and must be assigned until it dies.  This is also appears to be written based off a single unit's attacks (or at least that's the argument).  What I've SEEN in quite a few reports is that your opponent appears to be able to start the process over, when the damage is from a different source.  

Example:  Ghouls hit Stormcast killing 1 and leaving another one wounded.  Stormcast go, killing a few ghouls.  A second unit of ghouls attacks the Stormcast, and he assigns the wounds to an un-wounded model (before the wounded one), removing it from being within 3" of a 3rd ghoul unit.  While the outcome for models in the combat isn't changed, the model removal did have an impact.  I think removing models preventing another unit from piling in, or even attacking is brilliant, but can't help but think he had to kill off the wounded model first.  I can see the rule swinging either way.

I don't think you understood my question.  I'm perfectly aware that a single unit of 6-9 models is going to cost the same as a unit of 10.  All I've been told is that you must pay X points for every 5 models.  I haven't gotten an answer if that I must pay X points for every 5 models per unit.  I understand that the points are nicely tied to the boxed sets now, but I'm not seeing unit sizes being tied to the box sets.  

Example:  I follow the guidelines and pay for 30 Drakespawn riders, but only required to have 3 Battleline units.  Is there something forcing me to run the units in multiples of 5?  Or can I run 14/8/8?  I'm meeting the points restriction by paying for a full 30 units, while staying within the min/max size of each unit.  I see this as a way of breaking up some of the inflexibility with a rigid structure, and getting some variation in a list.

I know this might be answered when I get my GHB, but if it doesn't show up this week, then I want to get some minis anyways.

Hope this explains things.

 

5 hours ago, Mr_Legs said:

That method of allocating wounds to new models sounds completely wrong to me, but I might be wrong. Would you have a link to one of those reports?

Regarding unit size, I see what you mean now. In that case no, points must be allocated on a unit-by-unit basis and cannot be shared among multiple units. With the Drakespawn example given, you can run 14/8/8 but you'd have to pay for 15/10/10 (see attached).

On another note, I'm assuming that you're planning to run the Ebondrake Warhost with that Order Serpentis list you posted. The list itself comes out at 1000 pts clean, but to get the battalion itself is another 60 pts, which would take you over the 1000 pt limit. Given that all those units are already at minimum strength, I'm not sure you can actually fit the battalion in at 1000 pts.

 

[Mr_Legs]

13 hours ago, Kramer said:

so that means, taking dreadspears for example, 10 spears for 80p, 10-20 spears for 160p. So you cannot divide 20 spears into 3 units as that would break the second rule (minimum of 10)

I think Sarkazim's question was more like: could 30 spears for 240p be divided into a unit of 12 and a unit of 18 for the same price? I'm almost certain it's not possible and you would have to pay 160p for each unit.

[Zephyr]

 

page 106 of GHB - it's models per unit, so none of this Tom foolery

full stop. 

 

Welcome to AoS.  Glad to have you aboard.

[Sarkazim]

2 hours ago, Mr_Legs said:

I think Sarkazim's question was more like: could 30 spears for 240p be divided into a unit of 12 and a unit of 18 for the same price? I'm almost certain it's not possible and you would have to pay 160p for each unit.

You understood me.  I was working on some Order Serpentis lists so I used that as a reference.  I really only wanted the Lord on Dragon and 2 Hydras.  Building on the list from above, I would add a Hydra, Knights, and Chariot to get to 1.5k.  I didn't want to do that from 1.5k to 2k+.  I just wanted to have more Drakespawn Knights, which is when I brought up the question.  I can easily do 30 more Knights, but wasn't happy with the 5/10 restriction, when the points don't change.  I rather liked the idea of running a 14/8/8 or 16/7/7 spread for having a stronger core unit, and would factor in to which list I'm going to build is all.

I wouldn't necessarily call it 'Tom Foolery'.  My GHB is ordered, and paid for.  My impatience is getting the best of me as I want to get some models and start working on them.  I don't need the GHB to do that, but I want to make a choice I'm going to be happy with.  While I do think it's insane that someone would refuse to play me for shifting models around, I just don't want to have an argument every game over it.  I get enough of that playing 40k. Several of the players I spoke with last night and tonight said they're actually perfectly fine, since I'm paying for a full set of models, and I'm adhering to the unit restrictions, so that's cool. 

I didn't plan on running the Ebondrake Warhost in Matched Play.  It was just both a guideline to build the army in addition to having it as an alternative option for non-matched play.  Something I won't have if I go with the Shadowblades, since the hardest decision will be 'How many Assassins do I want to run?'.  While both lists are limited, having 4 options instead of 2 was another major factor in going with the Serpentis.  I like the range of all the models on both lists with the possible exception of the Chariots, but I'd only be getting 2 of them, so no big deal.  

That said, looks like I'm going to do the Shadowblades.  It's an army that scales with the size of the game IMO, I get more options to spread the units based on the size of the game, while sticking to the 5/10/15/20 standard without too much fuss.  In addition to having a few players who will let me run the 12/12/12/12/12 and not force me to pay 2100 points when I'm still only bringing 1400 points worth.  That, and everyone think's it's Crazy, Stupid, or a combination of both. The Serpentis starts strong, but then starts to thin out as the points go higher (with the models I'm willing to purchase anyways).

I'm hoping to get my GHB before I make the decision, or at least hope someone has one I can look at before I order.

Thank you everyone for the help this far.

[Kramer]

11 hours ago, Mr_Legs said:

I think Sarkazim's question was more like: could 30 spears for 240p be divided into a unit of 12 and a unit of 18 for the same price? I'm almost certain it's not possible and you would have to pay 160p for each unit.

True, didn't read it that way but you're right. No it's only possible by paying the 160 per unit. 

[Nico]

Quote

1. I do not believe the model has to be placed if it has rules that allow otherwise, as with the Assassin. However, I do not believe you can use any of his traits/command abilities until such as time as he is revealed (consider this his actual deployment).

Yes - this would be like the Lord Celestant in the Skyborne Slayers formation.

[Sarkazim]

Flip Question.  Can I have one of my Dark Riders be the General?

While the Assassin is nice since he's hidden for a bit, he doesn't have any command abilities except the additional one that comes with picking your general, and by the time he shows up it's a bit late for it to do anything.  So I might want to play around with having one of the Dark Rider Heralds be the General.  Unless you think I won't be that affected by Battleshock.

 

[Nico]

Quote

Flip Question.  Can I have one of my Dark Riders be the General?

Yes. This is clear from the 4 pages of rules.

[Zephyr]

 Unless you think I won't be that affected by Battleshock.
 

Battleshock can definitely jump up and get you.

Also, while the rules for pitched battles are the rules for pitched battles, there's always folks willing to bend them in reasonable ways. One of the nice things about AoS.

[Sarkazim]

3 hours ago, Zephyr said:

Also, while the rules for pitched battles are the rules for pitched battles, there's always folks willing to bend them in reasonable ways. One of the nice things about AoS.

 

That's what I'm finding.  I also see it being easier with the Shadowblades list to accommodate either playstyle.  With only one unit spam out of two that are actually starting on the board, and nothing eating a big chunk of points it's just convenient.  

I think I've settled on doing the Shadowblades.  It's crazy, but I've been searching for some modeling ideas online and think I've got it worked out.  I still like the Serpentis list, but a part of me wants to see how they'll change the models.  Especially the Drakespawn (Cold Ones) and the War Hydra.

[nelsonus]

I just want to add to this convo  that I just painted the assassin model and it's frigging awesome

[Sarkazim]

Thank You everyone.  The decision has been made, and I've committed to it.  Everything will now be over here:

 

[Sarkazim]

Decided to stick to discussions on the list here.

I've gotten all 60 Nightmare built and will start work on the Riders soon.  For modeling purposes, I'm going to differentiate the units.  I'm not there yet, but eventually I'm going to have to settle on a number to build the units in.

My initial plan was to have 20/15/15/5/5.  I've played a few 1k games now, and have had better luck with 10/10/10, than 15/5/5/5.  Apart from the issues with getting models into combat I'm thinking I should run my 2k list in a similar way.

I only recently learned that I could still benefit from the Order Alliance bonuses.  Since Assassins aren't great Generals, I'm going to make one of the Heralds my General.  So I like the idea of at least one large block of Riders since they'll be Immune to Battleshock.  

Can anyone give advice on units sizes?  Is running 20/10/10/10/10 a good/bad idea?  

[Sarkazim]

Loving the army so far, and I'm fully aware that it has it's flaws.  I'm finding somethings that seem unusually difficult to deal with, and I want to know if it's a general problem, or just limited to a few armies?

1) I seem to be doing alright with Casters, since my Mobility + Shooting does an alright job keeping them in check.  Haven't gone up against any casters that summon units.
2) The lack of Rend is problematic, but with the Dark Riders themselves the volume of attacks has been pretty effective.  The Assassin is still lackluster, even when I give him the -1 Rend Artefact.  
3) Quite a few of the Specialized lists have no way to deal Mortal Wounds.  This is the one where i'm scratching my head on.

Reason I'm asking is that I'm in a Path to Glory style Campaign, and we're playing 500 points.  My next game is against a Sylvaneth player who is running a Treelord Ancient with a 2+ re-rollable save, 5 Revenants and a Branchwych.  Is this just him powergaming at this point level?  15 Dark Riders and 1 Assassin isn't going to do anything to that Treelord.  To be clear, I'm aware that I'm not going to do anything to that Treelord at ANY point level, but feel that at 500 points, there isn't much that anyone can do, and just want to know if my gut is about right is all.

I'm hoping I can just play the Scenario.  The Revenants will most likely die, and a game of Cat and Mouse will be played with the Branchwych.

[Bosmer Nightblade]

Play narrative to solve this problem

[Nico]

Quote

Is this just him powergaming at this point level? 

Yes - that's a pretty antifun army at that points level. Ditto an Arachnorok and 2 units of Spider Riders #fluffy

[Sarkazim]

The Bad:
He took 'Regrowth' on his Treelord in addition to the 2+ re-roll.  Not that I wounded him the entire game.  

The Good:
I won, 28/10.  Border Patrol.  He got his Revenants AND his Treelord to charge me on turn 1.  Luckily for me, the Assassin killed 4 of the Revenants, and he didn't have the Battlion Bonus (They're making him pay for it).  So I was just able to retreat onto his objective with the Assassin just on his feet claiming objectives.  Turn 2, I was able to get a lucky round of shooting off to kill the Branchwych.  It was just a run for VP's at that point.  He managed to kill all of the Dark Riders when he finally caught up to them on Turn 5.  

The Switch to having the Herald as my General really shined in this game, as having the one core block of Riders immune to Battleshock meant he had to kill me.  The downside was the 18 wounds the Treelord inflicted in one turn.  (Rousing the trees, shooting, and the 11 wounds in Combat).  

[chord]

glad you won and had a good time

[Bowlzee]

18 hours ago, Sarkazim said:

 The downside was the 18 wounds the Treelord inflicted in one turn.  (Rousing the trees, shooting, and the 11 wounds in Combat).  

How on earth did he do this!? My Treelords rarely deal 18 wounds in a game

[chord]

You could add the war hydra to your shadowblades army and I think it would fit the overall style. Plus it would cause your opponent to focus on that freeing the other units up to claim objectives, etc.