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Is shooting overpowered?


Tom Loyn

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Interested in generating a discussion on whether or not shooting is overpowered in AoS, particularly in matched play.  It seems that a lot of the armies on the top tables at the GW Warlords event at Warhammer world featured a large amount of shooting. The ability to deal damage at range without fear of reprisal is going to understandably be good, but is it too good?  Certainly as a Khorne player I find it frustrating when I come up against really shooty gunlines that  shoot me off, but perhaps I just need to take tougher units to weather the storm.  

 

Thoughts? 

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Shooting is strong if you're uncontested. 

There is 2 combat phases per round and 1 shooting phase. So In  effect your melee combat troops are twice as effective for the battle.

But, saying that, they're also 3 times more likely to die from  the 2 combat phases and the shooting phase, where as shooting units can at likely at least have one round of shooting without losses.

When playing capture objectives you are suffering major losses by camping the objective, but you hopefully are gaining victory points, while the units shooting you aren't 

 

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I presume the Kunnin' Rukk is what motivated your concern.  Typically people worry about shooting during combat.  Perhaps you may want to look at taking a Bloodstorm as savage orc archers hitting on 6s are much less daunting.

Skarr may also be a prudent choice.  Ultimately you have few tools to reach out and kill heroes behind units so you just have to dive in and kill, which there are plenty of abilities to help with that.

 

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14 minutes ago, mldemoss said:

As a fellow Khorne player, I feel i need to mention the Khorne Skull Cannon and suggest that you add it to your list. It is amazing.

I've seen a lot of players say the Khannon isn't working for them. My theory as to why is that it stands out as a target in a Khorne army, so you either need a better unit to distract from it being shot at, or take 2 or more of them.

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The only things that worry me is Kunning Rukk and Thundertusks (and the fact that these can be played together as one list). The effective range of the Thundertusk is stupid: D6+2 in hero phase, 8 inch move plus 18 inch range means a maximum effective range of 34 inches, so a model whose base is more than 2 inches wide is in peril on the backline turn one. The healing is also obscene and an affront to the fluff.

The toughness of the Savage Orruk Archers is ridiculous 6+ ward and 2 wounds each for 100 points! Hand of Gork plus the formation means they could move 20 inches in one turn and shoot 18.

Judicators as Battleline is also a kick in the teeth for everyone else, but I can live with that.

Debuff spells need a huge buff. Teclis ironically is a hard counter to Beastclaw. Some kind of protective auras that deflect or even reflect only shooting would be most welcome (cough Tzeentch Lore cough). Plenty of hard counters for melee, alpha strikes and magic, but anti-ranged ones are a joke (Tamurkhan formation lol, Daemonsmith who is outrangedneed by the archers he needs to debuff, Dark Aekf Sorceress ditto, Plaguebearers - shoot something valuable instead, Verminlord Deceiver - rule of one nerfed his spell).

 

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8 minutes ago, Nico said:

Debuff spells need a huge buff. Teclis ironically is a hard counter to Beastclaw. Some kind of protective auras that deflect or even reflect only shooting would be most welcome (cough Tzeentch Lore cough). Plenty of hard counters for melee, alpha strikes and magic, but anti-ranged ones are a joke (Tamurkhan formation lol, Daemonsmith who is outrangedneed by the archers he needs to debuff, Dark Aekf Sorceress ditto, Plaguebearers - shoot something valuable instead, Verminlord Deceiver - rule of one nerfed his spell).

 

Actually we lack a lot of the old debuff spells that need to come back.  It'd bring back some complexity in the magic phase for sure.

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I was at the warlords event at whw and after the first day I did ask myself is shooting to OP in AOS, I think the kunnin rukk can be silly and very difficult to deal with having said that if and I stress IF you can kill the big boss its worthless in game after that which is why I don't think that battalion is that bad, with that said if you cant kill the big boss i.e. you have no shooting then you will suffer before the game has even begun, to the point where it might not be a game at all. Also I went to the 1 day Alliance event and a very shooty army won the event don't get me wrong the person in question is a very good player but it does make me think whether shooting does need a cap of for example 100 shots a turn. I've played stormcast now since they originally came out and I always put judicators in my army 2 units of 5 with bows because they are so useful to have, when the generals handbook came out and I saw they were 160 for 5 I thought is it worth it and I would say yes, I probably wouldn't pay more then 180 and anything below 140 would be silly so 160 for 5 I am happy with. I don't think shooting is OP but I do think some of the units like savage orcs with bows that cost the same as normal orcs was not the best decision on points imo. However there are counters to shooting plaguebearers for example will most likely become one of the most used battleline units in chaos because of -1 to enemy shooting, also taking a formation which you can deploy in 1 drop almost guarantees you first turn which you could use to get a turn 1 charge forcing your opponent to pick certain targets. I agree that shooting can be challenging to play against but there are counters and I personally don't play competitively enough to be concerned nor do any of my friends who I play against.   

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This is an interesting thread  @Tom Loyn, and in my next Freeguild list I was actually going to test NOT having shooting units for the simple reason that they haven't been as effective for me. 

Kunning Ruck has made me reconsider how I can buff my shooters to become more effective, however; it won't make start fielding large units of archers, crossbowmen and handgunners.

 

 

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I dont think my Flesh Eaters have a counter for the Savage Orruk shooting list thing...I do have a Mournghoul to use  but would need to get first turn off in order to even get it in debuff range..with that it would most certainly need a shield on it to have a chance to survive the first turn,that and be within the army ward range.

 

 Ive done fairly well in test games vs other melee or mixed armies,,im going to be seriously bummed if AoS turns out to be a shooting fest like 40k is.

 

 

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Mourngul is a bad counter as it's good against low volume, high rend attacks - not high volume, low rend attacks.

People keep saying it falls apart when you lose the Warboss. Yes - this does take out the exploding attacks and the double shoot. However it's still 120 attacks at 4+, 4+ (-1 rend vs monsters) (with the +1 to hit Brutal Beast Spirits spell). So it's doing 15 wounds to a 4+ save unit. Also it's 40 bodies and 80 wounds to get rid of! This for a mere 400 points.

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3 minutes ago, Nico said:

Mourngul is a bad counter as it's good against low volume, high rend attacks - not high volume, low rend attacks.

People keep saying it falls apart when you lose the Warboss. Yes - this does take out the exploding attacks and the double shoot. However it's still 120 attacks at 4+, 4+ (-1 rend vs monsters) (with the +1 to hit Brutal Beast Spirits spell). So it's doing 15 wounds to a 4+ save unit. Also it's 40 bodies and 80 wounds to get rid of! This for a mere 400 points.

That is ridiculously under priced. Granted, I'm sure that isn't including the Battalion or wizard required to get those effects.

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Shooting can be very powerful and some armies simply don't have any real counters to it whilst others may have one (which makes a very boring and predictable army).  My first game was against Wanderers with 30 glade guard and a huge portion of my Bloodbound got taken off the table in the first couple of turns so I think I've been aware of how tough it can be for some time.

Bloodbound do suffer quite a bit against shooting because the inherent "weakness" of the army is you need to slog across the board to get into combat where they excel.  You've really only one "fast" unit too so need to look to other non-Bloodbound units.

The general consensus seems to be that the new Savage Oruk list is very cheap for the ranged damage that it can throw out when combined with specific abilities.  Personally my biggest concern is their base 2 wounds for the cost - I can't think of any other unit that you can field with 20 wounds at 100 points let alone a built in ward save (I'm fully expecting a fusillade of corrections on this!).

Looking at what they've done with the new abilities I think we're going to see the power of mass shooting reduce as each faction get's their own list of artefacts and traits.  Chaos can already gain -1 to shooting for the first turn with a trait and there are other units that can reduce shooting attacks so this trend may continue - this will ultimately result in us seeing people fielding armies that aren't pure gunline.

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I think what's interesting about this thread is that a month before people were asking something similar about Stonehorns and then a few weeks before that it was Mournguls. I think it shows people are still finding out tricks with the game and the points from the Generals handbook and I'm sure we will find something else new soon. I think the next big thing will be Chaos list rocking out Sayl to move some deathstar or people will start bringing the Skyre list as a counter and use it to target the characters to reduce the shooting and movement.

1 hour ago, Nico said:

People keep saying it falls apart when you lose the Warboss. Yes - this does take out the exploding attacks and the double shoot. However it's still 120 attacks at 4+, 4+ (-1 rend vs monsters) (with the +1 to hit Brutal Beast Spirits spell). So it's doing 15 wounds to a 4+ save unit. Also it's 40 bodies and 80 wounds to get rid of! This for a mere 400 points.

The trick with the Kunning Ruk seems to be all around the Characters so, take them out and something really difficult to face becomes annoying. In the game with Terry and Sedge, you can see Sedge paying a lot of attention to protecting his characters by making sure they are out of range of things. I'm not 100% sure if he could have done this due to ranges but I think if Terry replayed the game he could have sent the Stormfiends character hunting rather than picking on the Boarboys. You would still end up loosing the Stormfiends over the course of the game but you would reduce the 'bite' out of the Bonesplitta list.

NOTE - Reader digression is required as in no way am I a tactical genius ;) 

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Yeah it was a tough list with a a lot of shooting. Can't say the shooting dice rolling aspect was that much fun from a practical point of view but the tactical aspect is fantastic. Kunning Ruk was useful but in itself wasn't the be all and end all. 

A unit of in buffed archers does very little. 120 shots 40 hits 20 wounds no rend. Good but not game breaking. Many units will laugh this off despite it being the sole focus of this unit. 

With buffs it becomes a whole new ball game. 

This requires spells, terrain buffs, command abilities etc. Which requires luck, careful placement and positioning. 

Kunning Ruk is really useful T2-3 for shooting and great T1, 4&5 for movement. Kill the hero it's gone though. He's only 6W 6+ save.  I will do my best to keep him out of harms way. 

In all the games at the warlords I found that my opponent had a bloody good chance of winning. Terry could have removed my general T2 I'd he's got priority which could have ended my chances of winning. Russ could have got double turn and crashed into my lines and murder my troops. I would have fought on with whatever I could obviously by game was winnable by both sides. 

Yes shooting is great. Getting the tub of the green is better. 

Will we see or need comp? I dunno. Do we comp mortal wounds? Horde army's that take too long to move? Shooting slowed down games but not much more than tons of combat phases starting T1. 

Im sure we'll see plenty of discussion on the various podcasts which is a better platform for discussion than this. Id just hope we see measured responses   

Which army was the nastiest at the event? Might actually not be the bonespliters but that is such an open question whose opinion would be correct  

finally this is a fully legal list, built from a single book, fully themed and sanctioned by GW. Until we see alterations to point cost (which I believe will happen) it's something you should plan for. They will probably turn up in events around the globe. 

 

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28 minutes ago, Sedge said:

Which army was the nastiest at the event? Might actually not be the bonespliters but that is such an open question whose opinion would be correct  

finally this is a fully legal list, built from a single book, fully themed and sanctioned by GW. Until we see alterations to point cost (which I believe will happen) it's something you should plan for. They will probably turn up in events around the globe

Out of curiosity do you think some of the reason could be because it's new in the grand scheme of things and something radically different to what we've seen in AoS?

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1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

Out of curiosity do you think some of the reason could be because it's new in the grand scheme of things and something radically different to what we've seen in AoS?

I think so. Be interesting to see what happens next year as people think about this when preparing lists. Also I think the key thing is while the Bonesplittas have some strong combos, we need to remember that Sedge is a very good player. I know if I took the same list, I wouldn't have won the event ;) 

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47 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

I think so. Be interesting to see what happens next year as people think about this when preparing lists. Also I think the key thing is while the Bonesplittas have some strong combos, we need to remember that Sedge is a very good player. I know if I took the same list, I wouldn't have won the event ;) 

Yes the list was a new challenge that most people hadn't seen before. This helped as did a bit of luck. 

Biggest issue is the perceived slow pace of the shooting phase. I could do a full 120 dice complicated rerolls etc in 40 seconds using the warhammer dice roll app but they're is a lot of resistance to this. 

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I personally think the rules mechanics are slightly flawed. I think if something simple like you can only elect to shoot or attack in combat each turn or you can't shoot if within 3" of the enemy would have been a nice simple rule.

Broadly I agree with you @Sedge, not sure comp is the answer. I think we will see the meta self balance it in the long run.  

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I think this is just the same affect we've had with almost every release so far. It's not power creep it's just that no one knows how to deal with the new hotness.

A few months ago everyone was saying how op thundertusks and sylvaneth were, before that it's Stormcast Dracoth Knights, and archaon, before that Stormcast teleporting Retributors... And so on.

It was the same in warhammer 8th and probably most war games.

In a while a new army will be released with new tricks no one knows how, or isn't prepared, to handle.

This list isn't OP as Sedge has said. Just like most of the powerful armies in AoS you need to take out to source of the power, which in this case is the characters. So get some teleporting/tunnelling/sniping shenanigans in your list and deal with it!

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7 hours ago, Nico said:

Mourngul is a bad counter as it's good against low volume, high rend attacks - not high volume, low rend attacks.

People keep saying it falls apart when you lose the Warboss. Yes - this does take out the exploding attacks and the double shoot. However it's still 120 attacks at 4+, 4+ (-1 rend vs monsters) (with the +1 to hit Brutal Beast Spirits spell). So it's doing 15 wounds to a 4+ save unit. Also it's 40 bodies and 80 wounds to get rid of! This for a mere 400 points.

 I was thinking more in terms of getting the Mournghoul stuck in with its 6" to-hit Debuff bubble,not so much in its killing power.Its not much,I know..but really...not seeing much at all for Flesh Eaters to deal with a list like this.

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