Let's Chat: Free Peoples

[Paul Conti]

at 260, is a multi griffon list a possible thing???

[Paul Conti]

also funny story - handgunners/croasbiwmen afe currently out of stock on the GW site

[MrCharisma]

He's 3rd in my eyes @someone2040 ... but re-reading the thread while it's not 11pm makes me realise my mistake.

[MrCharisma]

3 hours ago, Paul Conti said:

at 260, is a multi griffon list a possible thing???

At the tournament I played at two weeks ago, there was a Freeguild opponent who ran 2 Griffons. One on each flank.

He did ok... but I think it came down to the player, not the list ;-)

I've been thinking about another Griffon or at least a Wizard Griffon.

 

Also: Crossbowmen/Handgunners and Outriders/Pistoleers are sold out in Australia too. Looks like we're going to be getting more players on the scene.

[someone2040]

3 hours ago, Paul Conti said:

at 260, is a multi griffon list a possible thing???

I would certainly say so. I found in my only game so far, that the Griffon suffered a bit from reliability. But I'm also acutely aware, that with only 3 characters in my current list, that my army is very fragile in any scenario that requires heroes/behemoths to capture objectives.

Double Griffon would definitely alleviate that. 3 Griffons may even be possible, but you'd likely give up ground elsewhere in the list. At 260 points, a Griffon is basically replacing a Freeguild General + 3 Demigryphs, and I reckon I know which one hits harder in combat.

Possibly something like this could be an interesting list to run:

3x Freeguild General on Griffon

1x Luminark of Hysh with White Wizard

1x Freeguild General (General)

1x Battlemage (Life)

40x Freeguild Guard

30x Freeguild Xbows

10x Handgunners

10x Handgunners

Seems fairly flexible, obviously a lot relying on the Griffon Generals to dish out the beat downs but you've got good ol' reliable double shotting Xbows and the Luminark to back them up from the mid ground. Life mage to keep the Griffons and Luminark topped up, while the Luminark and Life spell provide extra protection. Once stuck in, potentially the Freeguild General can even buff the Griffons with Hold the Line if they're in range.

Unsure though if it's trying to straddle the line too much, the General and Xbows want to stay put, while the Griffons want to move forwards. It might be better to double down on the Griffons, and make one of them the General while preferring units which are better in a mid-range fire fight such as Handgunners or Archers.

[Blitzel]

Howard you all feeling about the steam tank. I love the model. But is it worth it? 

[Duck1986]

4 hours ago, someone2040 said:

 But I'm also acutely aware, that with only 3 characters in my current list, that my army is very fragile in any scenario that requires heroes/behemoths to capture objectives.

In lueu of taking about 4 Generals on a Warhorse, I've conceded that for those scenarios in going to have to full-order it!  I know that's not practical in a campaign /tournament however.

Quick question about Great Companies -if my ranged units find themselves in melee and I choose to retreat - if I stay within 6 inches of the unit im supporting can I still fire on my opponents following turn? I'd obviously lose the buff for not moving in my preceding movement phase, but I wouldn't have got that anyway due to being within 3" - but I'd have an added chance of survival until the next turn! 

[MrCharisma]

1 hour ago, Blitzel said:

Howard you all feeling about the steam tank. I love the model. But is it worth it? 

It's a solid objective holder, however: it's too inconsistent. 

In  a pure Free People army I'd find it hard to justify using my Ally points on them 

[Blitzel]

5 minutes ago, MrCharisma said:

It's a solid objective holder, however: it's too inconsistent. 

In  a pure Free People army I'd find it hard to justify using my Ally points on them 

I am also a bit less fond of it now, because of the new alliance system. I like a second big model in my army but I am thinking about a mage on a griffon now.

[jobume]

I'm going to try double Griffin in an upcoming tournament. I can't decide if I will make one of them the general though. With the "+1 save trait" and "armor of meteoric iron" the griffins will be rocking a 1+ and a 2+ armor save if they stick together. Seems like a nice mobile tank. Perhaps backed up by some Demi's with 3+ re-rolling 1's. However, is it worth losing the "Hold the line"-ability?

[choppa6189]

Not sure if this would work but could free guild archers run before game starts and then get hold the line command ability for some nice early shooting, I know because of range they will likely be hitting opponents chaff but that's ok.

General - Trait =indomitable, artifact = writ of dominion 

3×30 Free guild archers

2x6 demigryphs

2x helstorm rocket battery

[bottle]

8 hours ago, MrCharisma said:

He's 3rd in my eyes @someone2040 ... but re-reading the thread while it's not 11pm makes me realise my mistake.

Haha, yeah 50th! 3rd for painting :-) I'm not super competitive and also played Murder Host twice! Looking to improve my army for the next event so I will be reading this thread a lot.  

[jobume]

16 minutes ago, choppa6189 said:

Not sure if this would work but could free guild archers run before game starts and then get hold the line command ability for some nice early shooting, I know because of range they will likely be hitting opponents chaff but that's ok.

General - Trait =indomitable, artifact = writ of dominion 

3×30 Free guild archers

2x6 demigryphs

2x helstorm rocket battery

Cool trick. I've used the archer snipe previously (with only two units and without writ) and it actually worked ok against unsuspecting opponents to do some early damage to chaff screens. I kinda like my archers but sadly never find room for them in lists these days.

[someone2040]

The problem with Archers is they don't get Pipers, so they can run up the field, shoot some of the opponents front line stuff, and then die as they get charged in the opponents turn.

The list above as presented is pretty weak. Won't do well in any scenario that requires heroes to capture objectives. Will likely struggle in Scorched Earth due to having too few units to keep your own objectives while contesting the opponents. 

30 Freeguild Archers with Hold the Line will only put through 7.4 unsaved wounds against a unit of Liberators.

 

So yeah, not a fan of Archer spam

[choppa6189]

18 minutes ago, someone2040 said:

The problem with Archers is they don't get Pipers, so they can run up the field, shoot some of the opponents front line stuff, and then die as they get charged in the opponents turn.

The list above as presented is pretty weak. Won't do well in any scenario that requires heroes to capture objectives. Will likely struggle in Scorched Earth due to having too few units to keep your own objectives while contesting the opponents. 

30 Freeguild Archers with Hold the Line will only put through 7.4 unsaved wounds against a unit of Liberators.

 

So yeah, not a fan of Archer spam

7.4 wounds is pretty good conisdering  gunners and crossbows wont be in range anyway. The idea was just kurnoth hunters,judicators,skyfires are never gunna be hit by our ranged shooting as its so poor range.

[bottle]

Surely you just want to use 10 man archer squads to be living speed bumps and triggers for your detachments. Have a detachment that is 20 Guard, 30 Crossbowman, and 10 Archers. When playing Scorched Earth, use the pregame move to make a ring 3" around your objectives. Have Guard on the 12" line and have the Crossbowmen 6" behind the archers. The enemy can't burn turn 1 and if the archers get charged they'll have 60 crossbow bolts raining down and you can charge your guard in if only to put more models on your objective.

[Blitzel]

I think I will be trying this...

Freeguild ******! 

*leaders*

General on foot; banner, sigmarite weapon & pistol - trait:indominatable

General on griffon; grandhammer, shield (Magic item goes here, meteoric iron or the broken shackle.. Not sure yet.. )

Celestial hurricanum with mage

Excelsior warpriest (healing duty for the big guys)

*Battleline* 

40 freeguild guard; Spears & shields

30 freeguild crossbows

20 freeguild greatswords

--- these are the great company---

10 freeguild handgunners; longrifle

*other*

10 freeguild pistoliers; repeater pistol, 2 trumpets.

Total points: 2000

Pistoliers, great griffon general, hurricanum and handgunners to some decreet will protect the great company white taking up position. After that I will try and get my greatswords and spearmen as main roadblocks/grinders. All while pistoliers and griffon general support where needed the most.

[Kugane]

I have been doing a lot of calculations and have ranked most units from highest to lowest AVERAGE wound output per point spent (before saves). I added a 16% modifier per Rend point. In these calculations I have not taken range into consideration, it is purely based on a optimal condition where every unit can attack from highest to lowest. I also only used the damage output and self-buffs, such as the +3 to Hit for 40 guards. I did not consider other buffs and such:

WIP:

1. 40 man group Guards with Halberd + shield - 0,083 Wounds/Point spent

2. 30 man Greatswords 30 man - 0,073  (10 or 20 man 0,071, 0,070) 

3. 40 Man group Guards with Spears/Swords + Shield - 0,071

(4.) (30 Handgunners that have an optimal shot + melee in same turn 0,063)

(4.) (30 Crossbowmen that have an optimal shot + melee in same turn 0,063)

4. 5 Pistoliers: 0,022 shooting + 0,035 melee: total 0,05734 (Best leader weapon is brace of pistols)

5. 20 to 30 Handgunners - 0,053 (if moved in same turn 0,040) (shooting only) (+0,01 for melee)

6. 20 to 30 Crossbowmen - 0,053 (if moved in same turn 0,027) (shooting only) (+0,01 for melee)

7. 30 Halberd Guard  (value to come)

8.  30 Spear/sword guard 0,052

((Outriders 0,030 shooting if didnt move, 0,023 if moved, 0,016 melee: Best total: 0,046))

9. 20 Halberd guard 

10. Battlemage on Griffon -  0,047 PLUS 0.002 mortal wounds per target (spell), this can add up quick.

10. Freeguild General on Griffon - Lance + Charge - 0,044. Lance, no charge - 0,040, Hammer - 0,041, sword - 0,036.

11. 10 Handgunner 0,042 (shooting only)

12. 20 Spear/sword guard 0,041

13. Demigryph Knights 0,038

14. 30 Archers 0,038 (shooting only)

15. 5 Outriders 0,30 shooting (0,023 if moved) + 0,016 if melee

16. 10 Archers 0,030 (shooting only)

17. 10 Crossbowmen - 0,027 (shooting only)

18. Cannon 0,027 (shooting only)

19. Volleygun 0,025 (shooting only)

20. Rocket Battery 0,017 (shooting only) 

 

There may be some slight miscalculations here and there, but overal this should be pretty complete. Of course straight of the bat there are lots of issues. For example, realistically you can never fit a unit of 40 Halberd Guards into combat, their 1" range wouldn't allow it. Also, ranged units, while having lower point cost, tend to be in range almost certainly and can chip away damage way before melee units can even start doing their work.

Personal opinion:

I think the MVP of the army are the greatswordsmen. They are overal great value for their point cost, and if you manage to screen them to reduce casualties early game, they will be able to deal some amazing damage output, regardless of how many you plan to take.

Handgunners seem to deal the most damage among all the ranged units, but also have the shortest range (unsurprisingly). While Crossbowmen are best if you do not plan to move your units at all, handgunners are still performing great even if they moved the same turn. They would be good for chasing around a company on the battlefield and lending a hand to your melee units with ranged support.

Among the artillery, the rocket battery is great because you can place it out of LOS and it can still hit your enemy at a HUGE range, I would personally either take the Rocket Battery or the Cannon if you want access to a long range attack.

Demigryph Knights scored relatively low on the damage board, but they are quite tanky, but it seems a General on Griffon will out-perform their role.

The fact that outriders and pistoliers can run out and start bothering units makes them quite valuable overall to me personally. Especially if you want to go and get a 40 man unit of guards across the table.

[Koalaninja]

On 05/09/2017 at 2:40 PM, Blitzel said:

I think I will be trying this...

Freeguild ******! 

*leaders*

General on foot; banner, sigmarite weapon & pistol - trait:indominatable

General on griffon; grandhammer, shield (Magic item goes here, meteoric iron or the broken shackle.. Not sure yet.. )

Celestial hurricanum with mage

Excelsior warpriest (healing duty for the big guys)

*Battleline* 

40 freeguild guard; Spears & shields

30 freeguild crossbows

20 freeguild greatswords

--- these are the great company---

10 freeguild handgunners; longrifle

*other*

10 freeguild pistoliers; repeater pistol, 2 trumpets.

Total points: 2000

Pistoliers, great griffon general, hurricanum and handgunners to some decreet will protect the great company white taking up position. After that I will try and get my greatswords and spearmen as main roadblocks/grinders. All while pistoliers and griffon general support where needed the most.

Not sure this is viable as the excelsior and the hurricanium can't fit in 400 points.

[Koalaninja]

I am really struggling to decide between freeguild and order allegiance for these guys. I love the artillery and the hurricanium too much but I can't fit both. What do you guys think? Is the free guild allegiance good enough to justify leaving these models at home? 

[Blitzel]

Darn it! I trusted on azyr again ;). The luminark may be better for its points now. Especially as it gives you 160 points worth of allies in 2k...

Anyone knows a good option that gives a +1 to hit buff to a unit for 160 points or less?

Freeguild ******! 

*leaders*

General on foot; banner, sigmarite weapon & pistol - trait:indominatable

General on griffon; grandhammer, shield (the broken shackle)

Luminark of Hysh with mage

Amber Battlemage

*Battleline* 

40 freeguild guard; Spears & shields

30 freeguild crossbows

20 freeguild greatswords

--- these are the great company---

10 freeguild handgunners; longrifle

*other*

10 freeguild pistoliers; repeater pistol, 2 trumpets.

 

Total points: 1940.

60 points left... I could take a gryph hond or a witch hunter. An alternate option would be an Excelsior warpriest and knight azyros, instead of the Amber battlemage. 

The knight azyros buffs shooting and can do mortal wounds and Excelsior warpriest Herald and dispels. Also situational d3 mortal wounds.

[Duck1986]

On ‎05‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 6:55 PM, Kugane said:

15. 5 Outriders 0,30 shooting (0,023 if moved) + 0,016 if melee

 

I find this a bit of a disappointing stat for Outriders, compared to their pistol carrying equivalent. Did this take into account their repeater handgun?  That 5+ to hit is a real problem though. I have a unit of 5 outriders, but am considering converting them to pistols. I guess the range is something to be considered, plus the pistoliers requirement to run directly at the nearest unit may be something to hold me back, as I like to get them up the board as quickly as possible to hassle the enemy by the second turn.

 

Really interesting reading on the statistics - thanks for working those out!

[Kugane]

1 hour ago, Duck1986 said:

I find this a bit of a disappointing stat for Outriders, compared to their pistol carrying equivalent. Did this take into account their repeater handgun?  That 5+ to hit is a real problem though. I have a unit of 5 outriders, but am considering converting them to pistols. I guess the range is something to be considered, plus the pistoliers requirement to run directly at the nearest unit may be something to hold me back, as I like to get them up the board as quickly as possible to hassle the enemy by the second turn.

 

Really interesting reading on the statistics - thanks for working those out!

I added the optimal weapon for the leader into the stats as well as far I know. I'll go recalculate them a sec to make sure :). What surprised me personally was the fact that a lot of these units seem like ranged units, but are in fact much stronger in a melee situation.

[Kugane]

1 hour ago, Duck1986 said:

I find this a bit of a disappointing stat for Outriders, compared to their pistol carrying equivalent. Did this take into account their repeater handgun?  That 5+ to hit is a real problem though. I have a unit of 5 outriders, but am considering converting them to pistols. I guess the range is something to be considered, plus the pistoliers requirement to run directly at the nearest unit may be something to hold me back, as I like to get them up the board as quickly as possible to hassle the enemy by the second turn.

 

Really interesting reading on the statistics - thanks for working those out!

It seems if I don't round the numbers at all, they are even leaning towards 0,029 wound per point spend (before saves). I think for an expensive unit like that the to hit stat should be much easier to meet. I mean, they either need to make the hit stat lower, or make the repeater handgun an automatic 3 to hit. If it were 3 attacks rather than D3 attacks, the average would bump up to 0,047 shooting for the unit. IMO thats a more realistic number. Not only are units of these outriders expensive and small to begin with, but they become incredibly inconsistent in their damage output...

[someone2040]

Essentially I think you have to treat the Outriders as a faster moving unit of 10 Handgunners. They pay the extra 30 points for the mount to get them into position faster (Albeit with slightly less range). They can run and shoot, which gives them one of the largest threat ranges in the army (26"+D6) and unlike Pistoliers, this means they can make sure they're attacking the unit they want to. They can even charge if they're really keen.

 

This makes them IMO a more flexible unit, yet less effective unit than Pistoliers. I think the power of these units (like most units in our army actually) come from the Musicians. In the case of our mounted shooters, the ability to run and still shoot. Pistoliers have the problem where if they run, they need to run towards the closest visible enemy unit and as far as possible. Sometimes this is not what you're going to want them to do (You may instead, want to go after a different more fragile unit), and you're going to be unable to run with the Pistoliers as a consequence.

 

So overall. Maths shows a lot of things, but it's a very simplistic view of things. It is easy to quantify offensive power or defensive power, but it's much harder to quantify the power of threat ranges or mobility. It doesn't show that the Outriders actually have the biggest threat range in our army (Perhaps outside turn 1 Archers), but do have to put themselves potentially in harms way to make use of it (14" shooting range means opponent gets a 9" charge on you).

Personally I prefer to use Maths to figure out what kind've damage output I can expect from a unit, as opposed to trying to figure out whether units are worth their points. I prefer to rely on my own intuition and experience to judge whether I feel a unit has a place in my army and what their expected role would be.

Just to make it clear though, not having a dig at people that do want to try and figure those things out. Just my own thoughts on the matter.