Legion Of Azgorh Mega-Thread

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

1 hour ago, Ben said:

So me your lists guys. I want to see what people are doing with this update. 

1 Bullcentaur Tauruk (General; Lord of War; Crown of Conquest) 
1 Bullcentaur Tauruk
12 Bullcentaur Renders
10 Fireglaives
10 Fireglaives
10 Fireglaives
1 Iron Daemon War Engine
4 Magma Cannons

May try this at some point.  Tauruk allows run+charge, and the charge is boosted as they are a Ba'hal Hero... Buff up the Renders with Lord of War, turn the bases sideways and engage everything in combat.  Have the Iron Daemon move up and drench everything not engaged with magma, and then swing in with the great weapons and hooves...  But this is dependent on getting the charge, but has the potential to be absolutely devastating.  It'll be hard for them to chew through 60 wounds with 4+ save.  I'd take Shar'tor... but 4 magmas is just too tempting...

[Browncoat89]

1 hour ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

I wouldn't take 2 Iron Daemons without taking the battalion + BSB... reroll 1s to hit/wound on those dreadquakes

Looks like you'd wanna drop Drazhoath, and you could fit the Battalion and BSB in. 

Yeah I mentioned that in the post right after. That way I would be hitting ad wounding on 3's refilling ones on all 8d6 shots from the iron daemons and the, on average, 3 shots from the two mortars. That could be a really scary ranged game, not to mention the two magma cannons for mortal wounds. I'm hoping the mortars come into play more with the possibility of more people running hordes with the new maximum unit rules.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

2 hours ago, Ben said:

So me your lists guys. I want to see what people are doing with this update. 

Last list, haha:

100 Daemonsmith
100 Daemonsmith
100 Standard Bearer
120 Castellan w/ Great Weapon
240 Ironsworn x 30
240 Ironsworn x 30
100 Fireglaives x 10
100 Fireglaives x 10
180 Iron Daemon
120 Deathshrieker
120 Deathshrieker
140 Magma Cannon
140 Magma Cannon
180 Blackshard Warhost

[swarmofseals]

OK, folks. I've crunched the numbers so you guys don't have to. Here's a link to a handy dandy spreadsheet of all the new LoA warscrolls and their offensive and defensive efficiency:

Steaming Pile O Mathhammer

Just some explanations for those of you who haven't seen my work in other forums:

• WDR is a composite measure of overall offensive efficiency. It uses weights that represent the relative effectiveness of different damage types across an expected variety of opponents. While the weights are something of a judgment call, I think they are close to accurate. Basically rend 1 is 1.33 times better than rend 0, rend 2 is 1.66 times better, and mortal wounds are 2.16 times better. These numbers might SLIGHTLY undersell high rend/mortals, but I think it's very close to accurate. Of course, if you know your opponent is bringing a specific army with a known distribution of armor then WDR will not be a perfect representation of what is most efficient in your specific case. WDR is calculated by taking the weighted sum of all damage a warscroll will do on average and then dividing by the points cost. Thus a higher number is better. To give you some reference points (specifically for melee), .03-.04 is bad, typical of highly defensive units. Less than .03 is awful. High .04-.06 or so is average. .07-.09 is good, and anything above that is great.
• PPEW (points per effective wound) just shows how expensive a warscroll is compared to the amount of damage it can take before it dies to a given damage type. Here we just divide the points value of the warscroll by the expected amount of damage of a given type that it would take to kill it. For example, an 8 point model with 1 wound and a 4+ save would have a PPEW of 4 against rend 0 (it would take 2 rend 0 damage on average to take off the 1 wound, divide 8 by 2). Here a higher number is worse. Generally for rend 0 a PPEW of 5 or so is solid, and anything less than that is good. Less than 4 is great. 6-7 against rend 0 is mediocre, and above that it gets ugly. Against rend 1 and higher the threshold for what's acceptable goes up, of course. Still though, when you get close to that 8-10 range you are getting into dicey territory and anything over that is pretty bad.

 

Some conclusions going warscroll by warscroll:

• Taur'ruk: Great weapon is the obvious winner here. Good offense (especially for a character) but a real liability on defense.
• Drazhoath the Ashen: Sadly still a really bad warscroll with terribly inefficient offense and defense. Two spells is something.
• Infernal Guard BSB: A support unit with typically bad support unit combat stats
• Daemonsmith: A support unit with typically bad support unit combat stats
• Infernal Guard Castellan: Great weapon seems a lot better here, too. OK against rend 0 but bad stats otherwise. Great command ability though!
• Shar'Tor: Respectable offense but terrible defense. A lot will be riding on his mask attack.
• Siege Gargant: Respectable defense vs rend 0 shooting but otherwise terrible.
• Bull Centaur Renders: Great Weapons are the clear best option for damage. Respectable damage, particularly on the charge. Defense is middling to poor but not bad. In a Massive Regiment they become quite efficient, but I question the wisdom of doing this. It will be very hard to get them all into combat, and their bravery becomes a real liability in large units. If your opponent can concentrate a lot of damage on them then you can lose a HUGE number of points to one bad battleshock roll.
• K'daai Fireborn: Similar to Bull Centaurs if you are burning one unit, but a bit worse than charging Bull Centaurs. Better than even charging Bull Centaurs if you are burning multiple units. Massive regiments of these seem like a really bad idea as they gain a lot less efficiency from the burn and the suffer a similar battleshock liability to Bull Centaurs. On defense they are nice against rend 0 and bad against anything else. I think Bull Centaurs are better overall but one or two units of K'daai could be complimentary. They are good against different types of targets.
• Skullcracker: meh defense but reasonable offense.
• Iron Daemon: Respectable ranged attack with More Power, otherwise pretty mediocre
• Deathshrieker: Less efficient in all aspects than Dreadquake, but more consistent
• Dreadquake: Swingy with a Daemonsmith but very good ranged power at a very long range as long as you have blobs to target.
• Magma Cannon: Significantly more efficient ranged mortal wounds than a Thundertusk. Just sayin'.
• Ironsworn: bad to medium offense, solid defense especially against shooting.
• Fireglaives: decent defense especially against shooting and sick ranged firepower. Monsters should evaporate. Castellan command victims should evaporate. These guys are probably the scariest warscroll in the army. Also nice to have no pressure to use larger units so that we can maximize naptha bombs.

Overall, nothing in the army really stands out for melee offense, but there are some reasonable defensive options. Few warscrolls seem truly terrible. Fireglaives are very scary, and I would not be surprised to see Fireglaive spam supported by some Magma Cannons or Dreadquakes become a serious tournament list.

As far as allies are concerned, I think good options would be something that's super efficient in melee and/or something that is very defensively efficient against high rend and good at the objective game.

 

[Ben]

Nice write up if a little math reliant with no 'feeling' for the faction or units taken in context of wanting to just play legion rather than just taking the best available units  

Some things impact the game in ways your spreadsheets can't account for but this is a great was to show 'what the numbers say' nice job  

 

my 'feelings' are:

11 wounds 3+ save for 180 points is great defence on the engines. Not a monster so can get cover, 2+ with a shield or cover.  You don't get this elsewhere in Chaos Alliance  

13 wound Drazhoath means mobile command ability. Nothing else in the faction moves this far, can shift the tempo of the game and get into positions that he can.  Points are almost irrelevant  

Large base bull centaurs taking up literally half the table in a massive regiment. 

 

[James Ramsay]

Bull centaurs seems very good, shield them, inspire them big unit and board control.

no one will want to go near them as they can move extremely fast with taurok command on and they hit very hard. -2 rend is rare in combat and with Lizzie's coming out everywhere it will be very nice. Being able to buff them with chaos sorc lords is awesome.

 

iron engines are very tough 2+ save in

cover with that mobility and again -2 rend shooting. Backed up by mortals

from magma cannons and you can cut through heavy armour quite nicely. 

 

[fued]

does drazs ability to make it realm of fire confer all the bonuses applicable in the book? e.g. all wizards have fireball spell and u cant see through a terrain piece

[Kaleb Daark]

I still think our battle line units are still strong but now have an added bonus in that they are overshadowed in their initial analysis.

the way I look at our ironsworn is as one wound chaos warriors, and our fireglaives as heavily armoured missile troops.

i always found in the real world on the table the bull centaurs were really strong, a nice attrition unit, I always mad sure they hit first and then the taur'uk wades in to deliver the coupe de grace.

im looking forward to running my twelve bull centaurs as one unit- jaws will drop!

kdaai for me have also always been strong, I fly them in and park them 3" away from targets I need hurt.  Free wounds can't be sniffed at especially if you can manoeuvre two or three units so their bubbles overlap for three free mortal wounds around those nice buffing blobs some people put down.

I'm looking forward to trying alternative war machines because I've always stuck to rockets and either dreadquake or hellcannon- never being scared of the crew getting sniped as then it becomes a rampaging death machine.

definitely be digging out the skullcracker and the steam trains a lot more now.

i picture a herd of bulls stampeding and wrecking thinks with a rolling wall of heavy armour behind them.

i might even crack out the balewind vortex for the daemon smith.

 

allies?

i can see me using skaarac as let's face it he's got chaos dwarf construct written all over him, who is khorne kidding!

or certainly chaos warriors who I've always found to be solid dependable troops. As I have marauder javelin horsemen, which I have to say are a real shock to some people when they face them, due to just how fast they can move.

yes, horsemen with mammoth chieftain.

 

if anything I would criticise only one thing, and that was to bring in the hellcannon warscrolls into the legion family. But I can understand why they haven't done it.

[Roark]

2 hours ago, fued said:

drazs ability to make it realm of fire

I think maybe you misread that one mate.  He doesn't make anything Aqshy, it's just a bonus he gets if the battle is taking place in Aqshy.

[Nico]

I missed the 3+ save on the Iron Daemon - that's huge!

[Nico]

The Aqshy thing is basically on a coin flip which is nice.

[swarmofseals]

4 hours ago, Ben said:

Nice write up if a little math reliant with no 'feeling' for the faction or units taken in context of wanting to just play legion rather than just taking the best available units  

Some things impact the game in ways your spreadsheets can't account for but this is a great was to show 'what the numbers say' nice job  

 

my 'feelings' are:

11 wounds 3+ save for 180 points is great defence on the engines. Not a monster so can get cover, 2+ with a shield or cover.  You don't get this elsewhere in Chaos Alliance  

13 wound Drazhoath means mobile command ability. Nothing else in the faction moves this far, can shift the tempo of the game and get into positions that he can.  Points are almost irrelevant  

Large base bull centaurs taking up literally half the table in a massive regiment. 

 

Yeah, I should have been clear from the start that this is purely an analysis of efficiency. I'm assuming most people know that mathhammer isn't the whole story by any stretch, and that a lot of things have value that can't easily be quantified. I find it most helpful in comparing similar units to one another (like BCR vs K'Daii). Also, sometimes the math shows you a use for something that wasn't clear before. You also caught an error on my part. I had the Iron Daemon at 200 for some reason. Chart has been fixed! Indeed it will be great in cover. 

I really can't tell if you are being snarky or sincere, but I do think that the math has a place in the game. I would never build an army around a spreadsheet - I think that would be insane and a huge chore to paint. But at the same time I think it's useful to keep the numbers in mind if you are trying to play competitively (and even if you are not!) If you are trying to avoid being "that guy" it's useful to know that fireglaives really are above the curve in terms of efficiency, so maybe your Chaos Dwarf Readcoats army with rows and rows and rows of fireglaives is not such a good idea to bring to the local have-fun night. 

The reason why I make posts like the spreadsheet isn't to tell other people what they should or shouldn't play. It's to save other people the time of crunching the numbers themselves and make sure the reference is publicly available. 

[fued]

6 hours ago, Roark said:

I think maybe you misread that one mate.  He doesn't make anything Aqshy, it's just a bonus he gets if the battle is taking place in Aqshy.

nah on a 4+ u fight there dont you?

[Roark]

Damn, sorry if I'm being ignorant. In which book or download is this Aqshy stuff written?

[Sheriff]

43 minutes ago, Roark said:

Damn, sorry if I'm being ignorant. In which book or download is this Aqshy stuff written?

 It's separate as it's from forgeworld but still official. Go on warhammer community site and then forgeworld link. 

Focusing isn't it! 

[Roark]

Mate, I have a Chaos Dwarf army and all the new warscrolls, including Drazhoath's. I'm asking specifically where it is written that a 4+ determines that a battle takes place in Aqshy. It's not on Draz's warscroll. Cheers.

[Sheriff]

Dunno. Best of luck with your info search mate. 

[fued]

in the 4 page rules up the top right on the first page

[Roark]

Thanks man! It's disturbing to me how much I miss or forget in those meagre 4 pages. So sorry for thread clutter everyone....

[swarmofseals]

@Ben was asking for some lists, here are a couple that are kicking around in my head:

 

List 1: "The Castellan's Pets"

Leaders:

Infernal Guard Castellan (120)

Infernal Guard Battle Standard (100)

Daemonsmith (100)

 

Battleline:

30 Infernal Guard Ironsworn (240)

10 Ungors (60)

10 Ungors (60)

 

Warmachines:

Dreadquake Mortar (160)

Magma Cannon (140)

Magma Cannon (140)

 

Other:

12 Skin Wolves (480)

10 Infernal Guard Fireglaives (100)

10 Infernal Guard Fireglaives (100)

10 Infernal Guard Fireglaives (100)

10 Infernal Guard Fireglaives (100)

 

Total: 2000

 

The fluff here is that the Castellan has spent some of his ill-gotten wealth to acquire some amusing new pets. Being the sadistic ****** that he is, he intends to release them on the enemy while dousing the battlefield in fire and ordnance. Who cares if they get obliterated if they take hordes of the enemy with them? If he needs to encourage them forward with some of his useless ungor slaves as bait, then all more amusing it will be. 

Tactically, the idea is pretty simple: crash into the enemy with the skin wolves, using inspiring presence to keep them from fleeing. Do as much damage as possible with them while buying time to get the infantry closer to forward objectives. Hammer them with the artillery while the fireglaives hold the midfield. There are a lot of ways that the plan can go wrong, but the wound count is pretty high and the ironsworn and fireglaives will be tough to move. Ungors can act as a speedbump against alpha strikes or help hold a rear objective if the enemy looks to be playing a defensive game. 

 

List 2: "Pure Azgorh"

Leaders:

Infernal Guard Castellan (120)

Infernal Guard BSB (100)

Daemonsmith (100)

 

Battleline:

30 Infernal Guard Ironsworn (240)

30 Infernal Guard Ironsworn (240)

10 Infernal Guard Fireglaives (100)

10 Infernal Guard Fireglaives (100)

10 Infernal Guard Fireglaives (100)

10 Infernal Guard Fireglaives (100)

 

War Machines:

Dreadquake Mortar (160)

Dreadquake Mortar (160)

Magma Cannon (140)

 

Other:

3 Bull Centaur Renders (180)

3 K'Daii Fireborn (160)

 

No particular fluff in mind for this list, just want to get a lot of bodies on the table with a sprinkling of other units for variety. I might consider cutting two units of Fireglaives for an Iron Daemon. The playstyle should be very grindy, aiming to hold the front with those big blocks of Ironsworn and just wear the enemy down with artillery and fireglaives while using the monstrous units as distractions or flankers. 

 

Honestly I've got no idea if these lists are any good, but they seem like they would be fun to play and *might* actually be decent. I'm a little worried that the second list is too static. It should at least LOOK intimidating though!

 

[fued]

i ran this list and it was very strong;

 

drazorath

standard bearer

castellan

demonsmith

 

30 ironsworn

10 fireglaives

10 fireglaives

 

2 iron daemons

2 magma cannons

1 dreadquake

1 deathshriek

 

iron daemons were able to tank and do quite a few wounds to the flanking units, while artillery and ironsworn went up the middle.

worked out really well, and i feel the army is in a very strong place at the moment

[diane505c]

Leaders:
Bull Centaur Taur'uk (General)
w/ Lord of war

Bull Centaur Taur'uk
Daemonsmith
Chaos sorcerer Lord

Battle line Units:
6 Bull Centaur Renders
20 Infernal Guard Fireglaives
30 Infernal Guard Ironsworn

6 Kaddi Fireborn

War Machines:
2 Magma Cannon

This is a two thousand point list I've created. It's close combat orientated with heavy support from the two tauruk models and buffs being provided by the chaos sorcerer Lord in the form of daemonic power and the Daemonsmith providing mystic shield.

The artillery isn't overly dramatic but the two cannons will be positioned beside the Daemonsmith who will help to increase the range.

The Kaddi Fireborn are an experimental unit who will target weaker non rending regiments and will be buffed to a plus 2 save with the help of the two sorcerers.

Thoughts??

Sent from my G3311 using Tapatalk

[Browncoat89]

2 hours ago, diane505c said:

Leaders:
Bull Centaur Taur'uk (General)
w/ Lord of war

Bull Centaur Taur'uk
Daemonsmith
Chaos sorcerer Lord

Battle line Units:
6 Bull Centaur Renders
20 Infernal Guard Fireglaives
30 Infernal Guard Ironsworn

6 Kaddi Fireborn

War Machines:
2 Magma Cannon

This is a two thousand point list I've created. It's close combat orientated with heavy support from the two tauruk models and buffs being provided by the chaos sorcerer Lord in the form of daemonic power and the Daemonsmith providing mystic shield.

The artillery isn't overly dramatic but the two cannons will be positioned beside the Daemonsmith who will help to increase the range.

The Kaddi Fireborn are an experimental unit who will target weaker non rending regiments and will be buffed to a plus 2 save with the help of the two sorcerers.

Thoughts??

Sent from my G3311 using Tapatalk
 

I don't think the Centaurs will qualify as battleline unless you run Shar'Tor as your general right? Other than that I love the list. I never run my Legion without 2 magma cannons for support so I totally agree those are awesome. I'm still gonna have to experiment with the fireborn too. I don't know if the attack buff and wound they got is worth the extra 60 points. Especially due to the fact that most people place such an emphasis on rending units they almost always take them over a unit that doesn't rend. 

[Furious]

I'm all for the changes. Everything seems better to me - except for the more expensive Fireborn, but that needed to happen. I'll miss the double shot on monsters from the Fireglaives, though. I'm glad they fixed their editing errors as well.

But this also looks like Hobgobs are officially not allowed, right?

[Ben]

Forgeworld posted some artwork up. My book is not to hand, is this new? Or from the Tamurkhan book?