Are you allowing Endless Spells to "set up" through spellportal?

[ianob]

Question as per title.

Do you allow Endless Spells to "set up" through an Umbral Spellportal when initially cast? ie not when an ES moves, ends its move, then is re-set up, but when first placed measuring from the other end of the portal instead of your casters' base.

I don't think I've seen anyone that believes this is legal talk about it on TGA, I certainly don't think it's legal, but I'm starting to get the impression that some people are playing it this way.

[Overread]

The Umbral Portal allows a wizard to setup as spell from the second portal as if it were the source of the spell. It makes no statment that the spell must be regular or cannot be endless and since endless spells are spells it stands to reason that you can, without further clarification from GW, currently use it to extend the casting range of an endless spell just as you can a regular spell. 

[ianob]

2 minutes ago, Overread said:

The Umbral Portal allows a wizard to setup as spell from the second portal as if it were the source of the spell. It makes no statment that the spell must be regular or cannot be endless and since endless spells are spells it stands to reason that you can, without further clarification from GW, currently use it to extend the casting range of an endless spell just as you can a regular spell. 

So without wanting to get into an argument about which of these assumptions is right (the reason for posting this is that I believe some people are playing it your way, obviously), the argument behind this not working is:

The spellportal allows you to measure range and LoS from the portal, it doesn't turn the portal *into* the caster, and each endless spell specifies that you set up within x" of the caster. That is not the same as measuring spell range. Another example is LoN's Vile Transference; even if you cast it through a portal, because you "measure back" to a unit within 6" of the target to decide what to deal, you can't "measure back" to the portal to heal the caster on the other side of the board. The rules aren't written that way.

[Overread]

I suspect this is one of those "GW didn't think through the specific wording" aspects which leads to the confusion. 

Either way is logical and can work and the loose wy in which GW sometimes uses specific words can mean either is valid; its another "GW really should confirm" situation. The portal isn't the caster I agree and on that score you would be right; but at the same time the measuring of range and treating the portal as if it were the source for the purpose of casting a spell might make it count as for the purposes of deployment alone. 

[ianob]

1 minute ago, Overread said:

I suspect this is one of those "GW didn't think through the specific wording" aspects which leads to the confusion. 

Either way is logical and can work and the loose wy in which GW sometimes uses specific words can mean either is valid; its another "GW really should confirm" situation. The portal isn't the caster I agree and on that score you would be right; but at the same time the measuring of range and treating the portal as if it were the source for the purpose of casting a spell might make it count as for the purposes of deployment alone. 

Absolutely agree. This is the main reason I asked "how are people playing it" rather than "how do you think this rule works" because sometimes there just is no answer from reading the RAW and we don't need another argument thread

[Overread]

Aye; the way I see it the "setup within X inches of the caster" for Endless spells is the same as the range for regular spells; just that the Endless have an area to them and thus have to be setup "wholly within" that range. This makes sense to me as whilst Predatory ES can move around; many can't and are in a fixed location. The Portals are, I think, the way to let those spells extend range and hit other areas otherwise you are heavily reliant on a fast caster every time. 

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, ianob said:

Absolutely agree. This is the main reason I asked "how are people playing it" rather than "how do you think this rule works" because sometimes there just is no answer from reading the RAW and we don't need another argument thread

Let's look at this another way.  What does arcane bolt say? It says "pick an enemy unit within 18" of the caster". So by your reasoning, I shouldn't be able to cast it through the spell portal because the portal is not the caster.

[ianob]

Just now, Richelieu said:

Let's look at this another way.  What does arcane bolt say? It says "pick an enemy unit within 18" of the caster". So by your reasoning, I shouldn't be able to cast it through the spell portal because the portal is not the caster.

Like I said, not really interested in arguing the point as it’s unresolvable with current rules and we’d simply be guessing intent and going round in circles. Just interested in how other people believe it works.

[Richelieu]

1 minute ago, ianob said:

Like I said, not really interested in arguing the point as it’s unresolvable with current rules and we’d simply be guessing intent and going round in circles. Just interested in how other people believe it works.

Well I think you can guess at how I play it. ?

[amysrevenge]

The thought process for me seems to go like this:

1) The point of the spell portal is to cast spells farther away

2) The wording on endless spells is ambiguous whether it works through a spell portal or not

3) When in doubt, do it the way it looks like it should work.  Cast the spell through the portal.

[Euphanism]

We've been playing it that the ES can be cast through the portal, but honestly it's come up only once. To be fair I think we're operating under the assumption that the portal sort of counts as the caster for range and LoS, so any ambiguous wording leans back to 'the portal is the caster'.

[PlasticCraic]

Has anyone emailed the FAQ team about this one? 

I'd do it myself, but I think it's getting to the stage where they would be rolling their eyes when they see my name in their inbox!

[ianob]

11 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Has anyone emailed the FAQ team about this one? 

I'd do it myself, but I think it's getting to the stage where they would be rolling their eyes when they see my name in their inbox!

I did a couple of weeks ago, sure they’re extremely busy at the moment though! Hope it gets clarified with this week’s rumoured faq as it’s kind of a bigun

[PlasticCraic]

Yeah agreed. 

I've seen people in the DOK whatsapp talking about using her extended casting range to extend the set up range of Endless Spells...I think they need to be careful what they wish for, because if that is classed as the "range" of the spell, Morathi could be a big net loser from Endless Spells coming through the Portal, with the Endless Spell damage coming outside of turns!

[Kurrilino]

How can this be even a debate.

Wizard has to be within 1" of one mirror and uses the other side of the mirror to cast it.

Range and visibility is measured from the 2nd mirror. How much more easy can they write the rule.

The ability is even named "Arcane Passage"  and the description is even saying "while physical matter cannot travel through the portal,

aetheric energy knows no such restrictions"

So the wizard clearly casts the spell through the mirrors and Endless spells are regular spells except they remain on the table after the round.

Pg.53 Malign sorcery Endless Spells:"all WIZARDS in your army know that spell in addition to any other spells they know"

Discussions like that are going on since forever and always end the same. Play the rules as they are written.

Using your guys argument would make more than half of the Endless Spells illegal to play.

The rules say (If you have an endless spell and it's Warscroll.....) This rule doesn't mention specifically Endless Spells AND Predatory Endless Spells.

So i assume Predatory Endless Spells are illegal to play. We need an FAQ for that.

Sounds silly ????? Yes, because it is.

 

 

[Kurrilino]

6 hours ago, ianob said:

Like I said, not really interested in arguing the point as it’s unresolvable with current rules and we’d simply be guessing intent and going round in circles. Just interested in how other people believe it works.

You will have to be interested in arguing the point, if you ignore all rules and make up your own stuff.

Just remember the basic rule, Warscroll abilities overwrite base rules. If you take a closer look at the warscroll, you will see

that the casting from the portal is an ability which in this case overwrites the base rule of "withing the caster"

Just because a point seems to be unresolvable to YOU doesn't mean you just declare it unresolvable and expect other people to be quite about it.

Sorry, i didn't mean to be so blunt about it but i am tired of people just declaring Total Truth without any piece of evidence, totally ignoring already existing evidence or proof.

[Kurrilino]

6 hours ago, Richelieu said:

Let's look at this another way.  What does arcane bolt say? It says "pick an enemy unit within 18" of the caster". So by your reasoning, I shouldn't be able to cast it through the spell portal because the portal is not the caster.

Finally normal people.

 

[Fluttershy]

38 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

Range and visibility is measured from the 2nd mirror. How much more easy can they write the rule.

that's it!

the ability Arcane Passage clearly states "If a WIZARD successfully casts a spell while they are within 1" of an Umbral Spellportal model, the range and visibility of the spell can be measured from the other Umbral Spellportal model from this endless spell. "

[set up wholly within 6"] determines the range of that spell, so yes, you can set it up wholly within 6" of the second portal (if your wizard cast successfully, is within 1" of the spell portal, and so on..)

[Graftonianman]

Some TOs are specifying that you can’t. I suspect that there will be clarification from GW soon along this line.  

Remember,  if you end the move of an endless spell near one spellportal, it will teleport to the other. 

In the meantime, just agree with your opponent before the game. If you can’t, roll off. Arguments both ways are convincing. 

[Waiyuren]

Range of a spell: The maximum distance from the caster that a target for the spell's effects can be chosen.

Target of an endless spell casting attempt: the place the caster wishes to set the model up.

Range of an endless spell: the maximum distance from the caster that the spell model may be set up.

The spell portal model lets you use it to determine the maximum range of a spell, rather than the caster... and the range of an endless spell is its maximum set-up distance.

I don't really understand what there is to argue about? Can someone explain the conflict to me, because I'm just not seeing it. ?

[AaronWilson]

I attend 3 different local clubs and every club is playing that you can measure the range of placement of endless spells from the portal. In the FAQ it stated if something increases the range of a spell does it increase the range of the effect? A.k.a if a Gaunt Summoner has +6 range, do you measure a extra 6" from him for Inferno flames and it was clarified you do.

By extension the spell portal does a similar thing (Measure the range from the second spell portal) which I think suggests they do intend for people to be able to place them from the second portal. Appreciate your side of the argument though and locally in 3 separate locations is played as you can. 

[AlphaKennyThing]

I thought that was one of the main selling points, being able to chuck it through a portal?

[ianob]

1 hour ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

I thought that was one of the main selling points, being able to chuck it through a portal?

It has its own specific rules that allow endless spells to teleport through it, so it does fulfil this function. People seem to think it can fulfil it twice. Whilst I personally dont agree that range and setup distances are the same thing, as you can see above many people do so hopefully this hits the faq!

[Waiyuren]

1 hour ago, ianob said:

It has its own specific rules that allow endless spells to teleport through it, so it does fulfil this function. People seem to think it can fulfil it twice. Whilst I personally dont agree that range and setup distances are the same thing, as you can see above many people do so hopefully this hits the faq!

Ahh, i think i understand your logic knot; you're basing your argument on the interactions between the portal and the move a predatory spell makes AFTER it is cast... But that is an entirely different interaction. 

Here's the sequence;

1) Choose the spell and check range (1st interaction = caster and portal, not spell and portal)

2) range is established via portal if conditions are met (caster within 1").

3) cast is attempted (technically this happens before checking for range)

4) cast is successful, spell effect happens (spell is placed within the range determined by 1st interaction). As a result of being placed, the remaining effects of the spell happen, one of which is a movement.

5) the endless spell moves, potentially triggering interaction 2 (spell and portal)

6) if the conditions for interaction 2 are met, the predatory spell is teleported through the portal (note i did not say "back through"; the spell effect did not exist until it was cast and placed, therefore could not "return").

To put it another way, spells only have a range until they are successfully cast on a legal target, after that they only have an effect. They are binary; they are either a range or an effect (or sequential effects) The set up distance must therefore be a range, because the set-up itself is the first effect, and the move a predatory spell makes is the second effect.

[Aginor]

For me both the English and German wording of the rules point to the solution that you can indeed cast the Endless spells through the portal to set the spell up on the other side, and we play it that way here.

I would love to see it clarified in an FAQ though.