Base Size Chart - mandatory for matched play? Or optional?

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

It isn't a theory.

Sorry, but my best friend does this all the time and it is annoying. You show him the rule in black and white and he replies, "Technically you are right, in theory, but it could be argued the other way."

Yes, if you change the words and create a new discussion, you could ignore the words I have just shown you and argue this new, imaginary way, but short of that, there is nothing theoretical about the rule we have just read.

You don't seem to have read my entire post. I'm not arguing semantics or rules-lawyering. I'm just pointing out that the rules-as-written don't always reflect the reality on the ground, so if you give advice based solely on what's written down whilst deliberately choosing to pretend that they aren't applied differently in practice, then you'll be giving bad advice.

If I tell someone that base size doesn't matter because that's what it says in the book (knowing full well that this isn't true in practice), then they go on to base their Stormcast army on 32mm bases, only to find that other players look down on them and they'll never be able to play in a tournament, then I'll be technically 'right' but I'll also be a bad person. It's not worth being right if that means giving someone else bad advice.

Personally I don't care much about bases sizes - I played against a Bretonnian army on squares the other day and didn't bat an eye. But what I think doesn't matter in this case. Giving my opinion isn't the same as giving good advice either.

[stato]

9 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Ugh I hope they change this soon.  Being able to base your models on whatever you want is definitely not good for the game.  

Ive never come up against anyone who has based for advantage in a tournament, if they had .  Ive played against people with models on squares, or blood letters on 25mm.  Neither of these were bad for the game, infact they were fun games (arnt all games fun?).  Its people who try to scheme and pick holes in rules are bad for the game, they will always find ways to do this, putting extreme restrictions on every aspect of the game spoils it for more than it helps it.  

Dont be a <nasty person>.

Dont give <nasty people> games.

[Dead Scribe]

Letting someone play with bloodletters on 25mm bases is the same as also just letting them have an arbitrary +1 attack on their profile because you can get more of them into base contact and they get more attacks.

Its not good for a competitive game where you can arbitrarily give bonuses to the statline, in this case because they are on smaller bases and can claim they came with those bases or something.  How do you prove otherwise?  You can't!  But now they can get a bonus number of attacks!

This idea of pretending you are on bigger bases also doesn't fly, because that can be abused.   They would still be getting bonus attacks because invisible bases are not precise.

Tournaments better for sure honor the base sizes given and make people rebase or put their models on correct bases.  The only problem that I have other than tournaments is my practice games.  We have to force people to rebase or not play them so that our games are as close to the tournament games as possible, and I don't like that because technically its not part of the rules.  But it should be so that we don't have to force people to do anything... the rules should already be written to force them to do it.

[AaronWilson]

Dead Scribe I'm sure you're a very nice person but boy your posts about a toy solider game are very aggressive. I agree with you and I personally hope tournaments enforce the base size rule but your tone is quite a aggressive one. 

[Overread]

It's not even that people will base for advantage. The number of people who honestly do that kind of stuff are very few and far between; but what this thread is talking about is making people aware that there are formal written down base sizes for each model and in making them aware of that; putting the onus of them to conform to those base sizes so that the game is fair for both players right from the start. 

 

Sure in reality we often play with not-ideal situations, but that doesn't mean we can't work toward it. With so many taking up the hobby now for Sigmar most players won't have an issue and many legacy models will be on square bases and thus most players would expect to either make custom inserts or rebase. Annoying yes, but it improves the game for all players involved.

 

Give it a few years and it won't even be a debate because most of the models in use will be current and adapted to the formal base system.  

[stato]

28 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

...

The only problem that I have other than tournaments is my practice games.  We have to force people to rebase or not play them so that our games are as close to the tournament games as possible, and I don't like that because technically its not part of the rules.  But it should be so that we don't have to force people to do anything... the rules should already be written to force them to do it.

Seriously, you shouldnt be forcing people to play the way you want them to for your benefit.  If you want specific tournament practice, go hunt it out, dont make people who just want to play for fun change for your benefit. Thats attitude ruins the game for more people than having a wrong base sizes does. Plenty of people want to play narrative, or open war scenario, or triumph and treachery, you wouldnt force them to play match play scenario 7 or whatever, you just play someone else.

[AaronWilson]

6 minutes ago, stato said:

Seriously, you shouldnt be forcing people to play the way you want them to for your benefit.  If you want specific tournament practice, go hunt it out, dont make people who just want to play for fun change for your benefit. Thats attitude ruins the game for more people than having a wrong base sizes does. Plenty of people want to play narrative, or open war scenario, or triumph and treachery, you wouldnt force them to play match play scenario 7 or whatever, you just play someone else.

Yeah I echo this, it's a good way of driving more casual local gamers away by forcing them into playing your style of play. No style of play is wrong and this sort of attitude will kill a lot of your local player base. 

[Overread]

Lets not forget most casual gamers are going to be buying new models with the right base size in most of the boxes anyway. Any buying secondhand are getting "legacy" models so some adjustment would be potential when dealing with that market.

 

I'm also of the opinion that a casual gamer gets on better with proper rules than with a wishy washy "well just do whatever you want". Sure the latter is dead easy to get into at first; but it quickly proves annoying. A beginner fighting someone who gets more attacks with the same models because the base size is different is going to feel cheated. Way more so than if they have to rebase some models. 

In general its a LOT easier to have strict rules and then have exceptions or casual situations than it is to have the reverse. Strict rules define boundaries and set expectations that let people work easily with a framework that, even if its complicated, is a lot easier to put together. Without that you end up with something that is very closed shop because it only works for the select who get all the alterations or exceptions or don't care etc....

[AaronWilson]

Most yes but even Screamers of Tzeentch come with a 40mm in a box, which is now recommended as 60mm etc. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dead Scribe said:

We have to force people to rebase or not play them so that our games are as close to the tournament games as possible, and I don't like that because technically its not part of the rules. 

I really don't want to pick a fight here, but this must be the most grotesque statement I've ever read on this forum. You force fellow hobbyists to do their hobby and play the game the way you demand that they should?? And you feel that you not only have the right to do this, but that you have to do this?? That is such a warped mindset. I would hate to be in your group. Sorry for calling you out like this, but damn! This attitude isn't good for the game. It isn't good for anyone - yourself included. 

[amysrevenge]

So, on the subject of using square bases for "ranked" infantry...

You can come VERY close to the experience of round bases with your square bases if you rotate them to be corner-forward, and don't inter-leave them tighter than point-to-point beside each other.

Don't go ranked up WFB-style with the flat/front edge forward and hugged in tight to each other.

[Warboss Gorbolg]

GW still sells a lot of models on the old squares, including in GW stores. I don't see them changing the basing policy for years (if ever) since we're going to be few years into AOS before GW itself stops selling the old squares with its models.

[stato]

Overread, you are falling into the habbit that a lot of competitive players do,  Casual = beginner  ,  That is not the case.

By all means let 'casual/beginner' players know the base sizes are recommended and most likely will be required in tournaments if that is the way they wish to go, and that basing too small could give them an advantage others might see as unfair, which could lead to them getting less games. 

But GW put this out as optional because plenty of people out there are happy playing with models with the 'wrong' base because they either have lovingly painted them or cant afford to change or just play for fun not competative. GW dont want to make this a nailed down 'cant play unless you follow these explicit rules' game, or they would have done already, its even in the rules 'THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE' to discuss with your opponent what to do if you disagree, even  just watching WHTV you can see how the guys at GWHQ play, which is play for fun, rules are just a guide.

If you want to play super strict and competitive thats great, it can be a really fun way to play, but its not the only way, if you want that find opponents who want that too.

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

put their models on correct bases

...

the rules should already be written to force them to do it.

No such thing, and they aren't.

[Dead Scribe]

52 minutes ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

I really don't want to pick a fight here, but this must be the most grotesque statement I've ever read on this forum. You force fellow hobbyists to do their hobby and play the game the way you demand that they should?? And you feel that you not only have the right to do this, but that you have to do this?? That is such a warped mindset. I would hate to be in your group. Sorry for calling you out like this, but damn! This attitude isn't good for the game. It isn't good for anyone - yourself included. 

I don't see it as grotesque.  This is the only game I play where we can have people using different sized bases, which in essence changes the rules of the game everytime you play it.  I thought there was a clause in the basing guidelines that stated that in matched play you had to have the official base size, which is why I asked the question in the first place.  

You can't have a competitive game and also allow people to change the statline of their models however they want by using different bases.

I suppose if they are playing against someone that doesn't mind that their game isn't really playing by the standards set forth by the community then thats perfectly fine, I just don't understand how this kind of thing is supported by the rules.  Its like playing magic and in the rules you can legally take a marker to the card and change the statline and then use it or playing chess and letting pieces do different things then the normal rules let them, but it makes trying to standardize and play by the same set of rules almost impossible.

People houserule games all the time.  I think thats what narrative and open play are for.  I just don't understand why the rules can't enforce a standard base in MATCHED PLAY.  People that don't want to rebase - thats perfectly reasonable.  But I don't think thats reasonable in MATCHED PLAY which should be about standard rules and balance.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Dead Scribe said:

You can't have a competitive game and also allow people to change the statline of their models however they want by using different bases.

You can. AoS is that game. I get that you don't like it and you wish it was something else, and that's fine, but you shouldn't force your opinions and preferences onto other people, particularly when it directly affects how they collect and build their miniatures.

Maybe I should force people who join my local gaming group to convert all of their miniatures and write up a full backstory for their army because that creative element is what defines the hobby for me? What do you think?

[Dead Scribe]

To be clear, no one is putting a gun to peoples' heads and making them do anything.  If you have a group that requires standard bases, people that want to play in that group will need to conform to that expectation.

If your group required a full backstory for their army to play in that group then yeah... that'd be what someone that wants to play in that group would have to do if they wanted to play in that group.

Our expectation is that a standard set forth by tournaments will be used in our games.  My personal preference is that I want to play the rules as written and have the rules as written enforce those standards.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

My personal preference is that I want to play the rules as written and have the rules as written enforce those standards.

Great, so you won't be forcing anyone to conform to a specific basing standard then, since the rules clearly state that the base sizes are an optional suggestion, yes? You'll be gently suggesting to newcomers that your group would prefer it, but you wont judge them or exclude them from play if they prefer not to right? Because obviously that would be incredibly selfish and mean-spirited.

I'm so glad that GW's written rules 'enforce' flexibility, choice, inclusiveness and a casual attitude as standard.

[Dead Scribe]

Well... if someone new wants to join in our games, they will be told that they are more than welcome provided they don't mind following tournament standard rules and basing as all of our games are tournament practice games and we need our games at the store that we are involved in to reflect the tournament meta and rules.

Because our group is set up as a tournament group that competes at the highest levels.  If players want to use whatever base they want to use, thats also fine, but they should find a narrative group to play in where they'll have more fun.  No one is going to say anything negative toward them or cause any drama.  

[silentdeathz]

1 hour ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

Great, so you won't be forcing anyone to conform to a specific basing standard then, since the rules clearly state that the base sizes are an optional suggestion, yes? You'll be gently suggesting to newcomers that your group would prefer it, but you wont judge them or exclude them from play if they prefer not to right? Because obviously that would be incredibly selfish and mean-spirited.

I'm so glad that GW's written rules 'enforce' flexibility, choice, inclusiveness and a casual attitude as standard.

It kinda looks like Dead Scribe is stating his opinion, and how it is in his local play group... and then you guys are piling in to gang up and berate him because you think he is being unreasonable/oppressive? People literally responding with 'haha' reactions whenever you respond to him in a snarky manner.

If his club wants to have a strict basing rule that is their choice. If he thinks that base sizes should be enforced in the core rules then he is welcome to that opinion. He is not wrong that AoS is one of the few games that doesnt have set base sizes because of all of the old square bases etc.

Quote

you shouldn't force your opinions and preferences onto other people, particularly when it directly affects how they collect and build their miniatures.

And yet, here is a full page of people telling him how awful he is because of how his club operates and because he wishes base size was in the core rules so that it wasn't even a discussion that needed to be had. 

 

Quote

  4 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

We have to force people to rebase or not play them so that our games are as close to the tournament games as possible, and I don't like that because technically its not part of the rules. 

I really don't want to pick a fight here, but this must be the most grotesque statement I've ever read on this forum.

Quote

Dead Scribe I'm sure you're a very nice person but boy your posts about a toy solider game are very aggressive. I agree with you and I personally hope tournaments enforce the base size rule but your tone is quite a aggressive one. 

@AaronWIlson Your own sentiment could very easily be reflect back at you.

People are going out of their way to post to simply tell him that his viewpoint was 'grotesque' and his mindset 'warped', despite knowing NOTHING of his local club. And specific groups having requirements to join isn't anything new. Nor is it necessarily a bad thing. IF they want a competitive group that only plays in the most competitive way then they are entitled to that. People not interested in that, or who think it 'grotesque' or 'warped' can just join a like minded group.

Just because someones opinion isn't the most popular one in line with the thoughts of what appears to be the majority of posters here, doesn't mean they arent entitled to their opinion or that they should be derided for it.

 

e; I know I'm somewhat hypocritical in making this post. But, in my opinion, a lot of the comments here are just  hostile for no good reason - and certainly not to the benefit of the discussion.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, silentdeathz said:

It kinda looks like Dead Scribe is stating his opinion, and how it is in his local play group... and then you guys are piling in to gang up and berate him because you think he is being unreasonable/oppressive? People literally responding with 'haha' reactions whenever you respond to him in a snarky manner.

If his club wants to have a strict basing rule that is their choice. If he thinks that base sizes should be enforced in the core rules then he is welcome to that opinion. He is not wrong that AoS is one of the few games that doesnt have set base sizes because of all of the old square bases etc.

And yet, here is a full page of people telling him how awful he is because of how his club operates and because he wishes base size was in the core rules so that it wasn't even a discussion that needed to be had. 

 

Your own sentiment could very easily be reflect back at you.

You went out of your way to post to simply tell him that his viewpoint was 'grotesque' and his mindset 'warped', despite knowing NOTHING of his local club. And specific groups having requirements to join isn't anything new. Nor is it necessarily a bad thing. IF they want a competitive group that only plays in the most competitive way then they are entitled to that. People not interested in that, or who think it 'grotesque' or 'warped' can just join a like minded group.

Just because someones opinion isn't the most popular one in line with the thoughts of what appears to be the majority of posters here, doesn't mean they arent entitled to their opinion or that they should be derided for it.

 

"We have to force people..."

That's not an opinion. That's something he is, by his own admission, physically forcing onto other people out there in the real world. Not just something he's strongly advocating for on a forum. He's actually doing it to real people. That's not the right attitude. There's no positive argument in defense of it. End of.

I just hope there are less heavy-handed groups in his area that players who don't want to be subject to this tyranny can join to enjoy their game of (as someone perfectly put it in another thread) 'war dollies'.

[silentdeathz]

7 minutes ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

 

"We have to force people..."

That's not an opinion. That's something he is, by his own admission, physically forcing onto other people out there in the real world. Not just something he's strongly advocating for on a forum. He's actually doing it to real people. That's not the right attitude. There's no positive argument in defense of it. End of.

People are entitled to play however they want, with the rulesets they want, within their private play groups. If his group has a rule that you must use the listed bases sizes for your models then that is not some terrible offence. No more so than having a club  (or tournament etc) that forces people to only field painted models or such. 

How about an example in a different context since this one doesn't seem to be working.

If I want to pay for and host my own arma 3 server and load my own custom scripts on to it I can. If I then want to make it a roleplaying server and 'force' people to roleplay on my server lest they be banned then it is within my right to do so.  

If they do not wish to roleplay then they can find another server/group that is non RP. There is nothing wrong with like minded people wanting to play with their own subset of rules. If people do not like those rules then they don't need to play with them.

It is no different here.

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, silentdeathz said:

It is no different here.

But it is different, because anyone has the option to play on any server. Generally speaking in any given area there will be 1 or 2 groups at most who play AoS, and I feel each group has a duty to be accommodating.

You say that Dead Scribe has the right to play however he wants. What about people who may have no choice but to play in his group if they want to get a game? Don't they have the same right? Should we all just be subject to the tyranny of the majority, or is it better to have a more flexible and inclusive attitude? It seems to me like Dead Scribe has no trouble finding people who want to play the way he prefers to play - would it kill him to be flexible and play the way someone else wants to from time to time?

At the end of the day Dead Scribe started a thread hoping that the wider community would reinforce and enable his particularly inflexible and domineering approach to playing AoS (against the letter and spirit of the rules), and the community it seems has largely chosen not to give him what he wanted. Bravo I say.

[silentdeathz]

1 minute ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

But it is different, because anyone has the option to play on any server. Generally speaking in any given area there will be 1 or 2 groups at most who play AoS.

You say that Dead Scribe has the right to play however he wants. What about people who may have no choice but to play in his group if they want to get a game? Don't they have the same right? Should we all just be subject to the tyranny of the majority, or is it better to have a more flexible and inclusive attitude? It seems to me like Dead Scribe has no trouble finding people who want to play the way he prefers to play - would it kill him to be flexible and play the way someone else wants to from time to time?

This is a ridiculous strawman-esque hypothetical to try and push your viewpoint whilst simultaneously making a (theoretical) potential lack of play groups HIS fault. Only made even more baffling by the fact that, by your omission, there is no lack of players for his viewpoint which is clearly not the most popular/commonly held one. So if there are so many people of this minority then clearly there are plenty of other players.

Then you go on to deride him because he wants to spend his leisure time playing the game he wants to, as if he is somehow in the wrong for not wanting to not play the game the way he wants to sometimes (please note again - you don't even know whether he already does this or not).

Also, if there aren't any clubs that fit your vision for how you want to play the game - start your own. If there are others who are interested then they will join. The onus isn't on them to change their club to suit your needs/wants.

Anyway, this is going off topic and I was debating whether to even start this conversation in the first place. If you want to further discuss this feel free to drop me a private message so that this thread can get back to the actual topic at hand.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, silentdeathz said:

This is a ridiculous strawman-esque hypothetical to try and push your viewpoint whilst simultaneously making a (theoretical) potential lack of play groups HIS fault. Only made even more baffling by the fact that, by your omission, there is no lack of players for his viewpoint which is clearly not the most popular/commonly held one. So if there are so many people of this minority then clearly there are plenty of other players.

Then you go on to deride him because he wants to spend his leisure time playing the game he wants to, as if he is somehow in the wrong for not wanting to not play the game the way he wants to sometimes (please note again - you don't even know whether he already does this or not).

Also, if there aren't any clubs that fit your vision for how you want to play the game - start your own. If there are others who are interested then they will join. The onus isn't on them to change their club to suit your needs/wants.

Anyway, this is going off topic and I was debating whether to even start this conversation in the first place. If you want to further discuss this feel free to drop me a private message so that this thread can get back to the actual topic at hand.

I really don't understand why you're so passionately invested in defending an attitude that is so transparently negative, non-inclusive and at odds with both the letter and the spirit of the game.

But you're right, we're way off topic and I am also now done. I think Dead Scribe's original question has been answered in any case, for better or worse.