How does your Allegiance now stand with AoS 2

[Ravinsild]

47 minutes ago, Gotrek said:

1 page.  ONE page. That's how many pages are dedicated to endless spell rules. They didn't even bother to put the warscrolls in the book. There's more text devoted to the artifacts than there is for the spells, endless and realm combined.

 

Okay let’s be as pedantic as possible. Jesus ****** Christ. Let me dumb it down for you. A whole book about MAGIC and doing MAGICAL THINGS with that MAGIC is what the book is about. It’s about the effect of magic on the realms, the very realms of magic themselves (but some of those rules are also in the core rulebook), artifacts found in those realms and yes new spells. Every realm has additional spell lore which is another pool of MAGIC that your wizards can pull from in order to cast a larger variety of spells. 

But let’s pretend that endless spells and expanded spell pools (everyone’s in a fit about banishment so I mean????) aren’t that big of a deal and barely effect the game in any meaningful way. Ok. 

[Gotrek]

I never said they weren't impactful. Though I do think banishment is overrated  (again, outside of nagash,arkhan, seraphon and tzeentch). Sure it's good, but with a cast value of 8 you won't reliably get it off and the bloodsecrators make it even less reliable.

Sure, khorne probably won't be seeing top 10 a lot but you are making it sound like it can't even break top 50%. You've gone from "we have NO tools" to "we didn't get enough toys in malign sorcery". Sorry, but you're wrong. We got tons of cool stuff from malign sorcery, honestly the biggest complaint I have with khorne in 2.0 is how bad most of our battalions are (barring pilgrims and brass stampede).

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, Gotrek said:

I never said they weren't impactful. Though I do think banishment is overrated  (again, outside of nagash,arkhan, seraphon and tzeentch). Sure it's good, but with a cast value of 8 you won't reliably get it off and the bloodsecrators make it even less reliable.

Sure, khorne probably won't be seeing top 10 a lot but you are making it sound like it can't even break top 50%. You've gone from "we have NO tools" to "we didn't get enough toys in malign sorcery". Sorry, but you're wrong. We got tons of cool stuff from malign sorcery, honestly the biggest complaint I have with khorne in 2.0 is how bad most of our battalions are (barring pilgrims and brass stampede).

We also have to choose between spending our Allegiance Ability resource on either summoning OR powerful effects, meanwhile I’m fairly certain every other army gets to summon in addition to the full effects of their Allegiance ability. 

I wonder what Seraphon players would think if they either had to choose between summoning OR teleporting but couldn’t do both. 

I mean sure we can save up tons of Blood Tithe and summon some small number of lesser demons and probably pick an effect from our Allegiance ability chart but it would most reasonably need to be 3 or less. 

Also is it some great victory for Khorne alone that they can use the realm artifacts? Because so can literally every other army on top of being able to use the endless spells and extended realm lores. Except Kharadron Overlords and Beastclaw Raiders who also by default have no wizards in their range of models without allies. 

On the other hand at least we have a lot of unbinding power unlike them. 

[Gotrek]

27 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

We also have to choose between spending our Allegiance Ability resource on either summoning OR powerful effects, meanwhile I’m fairly certain every other army gets to summon in addition to the full effects of their Allegiance ability. 

</snip>I mean sure we can save up tons of Blood Tithe and summon some small number of lesser demons and probably pick an effect from our Allegiance ability chart but it would most reasonably need to be 3 or less. 

Summoning has ALWAYS BEEN PART OF OUR ALLEGIANCE ABILITY. Right there in the book, 8 points: summon a dude. No one used it because reinforcement points were ****** (just like how damn near everybody ignored summoning. Yes nagash and tzeentch were the exceptions. Again.)

 

33 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Also is it some great victory for Khorne alone that they can use the realm artifacts? Because so can literally every other army on top of being able to use the endless spells and extended realm lores.

It's ALMOST like the book you derided as having no value for non casting armies actually has stuff FOR EVERYONE. Like I've been trying to get you to understand...

 

35 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Except Kharadron Overlords and Beastclaw Raiders who also by default have no wizards in their range of models without allies. 

On the other hand at least we have a lot of unbinding power unlike them. 

And fyreslayers. And dispossessed. And free peoples. And skyre. And pestilins. 

Again, it's almost as if we aren't as bad off as you originally implied. Which was my point all along. Like I said, we probably aren't going to crack the top 10, but we can find a home in the top 50% 

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, Gotrek said:

It's ALMOST like the book you derided as having no value for non casting armies actually has stuff FOR EVERYONE. Like I've been trying to get you to understand...

Again, it's almost as if we aren't as bad off as you originally implied. Which was my point all along. Like I said, we probably aren't going to crack the top 10, but we can find a home in the top 50% 

I never implied we were that bad off though. I can quote myself. All I said was that one of the largest supplements in the new edition, and what many people are calling the "magic meta" doesn't give US as much stuff as it gives the majority of other armies. So it has "stuff FOR EVERYONE", but it has MORE, and a very POWERFUL MORE for the majority of other armies. Cogs are amazing, so are geminids, so is pallisade, and that's just a few I keep seeing pop up repeatedly in multiple lists across multiple armies. 

Ok? What's your point that nobody used summoning and everyone could do it all along? My point is pretty simple to grasp: Everyone else got super great summoning for free, bolted on to what they could already do. We still have to sacrifice something to do it. 

Everyone else: "Now I summon things and get the full benefit of my allegiance abilities and I have no drawbacks for this."

Khorne: "IDK, should I save my blood tithe to auto un-bind that spell or give my Skullreapers a second combat round or do I want to summon some hounds and bloodletters...? I have 8 points, should I summon a bloodthirster or should I use it on something like bronze meteor and a heal...?" 

So what's my point? Literally everybody got more stuff, but some got a LOT more than Khorne out of it, and it's possible if we had somehow integrated Endless Spells into the Khorne army as a new list of turbo blessings or something, and had our Summoning detached from our Allegiance Ability resource pool we do be doing a lot better. Imagine if Khorne got equally as much out of Malign Sorcerery via Super Skull Blessings which had similar effects but went away after a certain point, or could be dispelled by enemy wizards or whatever for counterplay and could summong alongside buffing their army via their allegiance ability? 

 

[Gotrek]

6 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

I never implied we were that bad off though. I can quote myself. All I said was that one of the largest supplements in the new edition, and what many people are calling the "magic meta" doesn't give US as much stuff as it gives the majority of other armies. So it has "stuff FOR EVERYONE", but it has MORE, and a very POWERFUL MORE for the majority of other armies. Cogs are amazing, so are geminids, so is pallisade, and that's just a few I keep seeing pop up repeatedly in multiple lists across multiple armies. 

 

11 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Similarly, basically in pure Khorne Bloodbound, or even Daemons, run straight by the book and using only that model range there's an entire supplemental book that we straight up get 0 benefit from. Malign Sorcery and Endless spells by default are completely off-limits, unless we ally in a separate wizard from another model range. So if an endless spell is actually cast, we have no way of dispelling it. 

Bolded for emphasis. 

For summoning and why (I think) armies summon as they do: 

1) in 1.0 we summoned via bloodtithe. Mechanic remains, more options available

2) seraphon summoned via magic (casting spells), now they summon via magic (sacrificing spell slots to gain summoning points). Mechanic tweaked but still the same. Engine of the gods table now useful.

3) summoned via magic and splitting. Now summons via magic and splitting. Mechanic tweaked, core is still the same.

4) sylvaneth. Mechanic unchanged except for alarielles nerf

5) flesh eater courts. Mechanic unchanged.

6) slannesh: summoning completely overhauled on this one so I will concede the point for this army.

7) nurgle & legions: written specifically for 2.0 so no changes.

 

As you see,  GW just expanded on the mechanics already present in the armies that summoned so it makes sense that we would continue to use blood tithe to summon. Honestly, it's a good solid upgrade. Too often have I had blood tithe just building up because there wasn't anything useful to do with it. My only complaint about blood tithe is that we can't bank any of it. We get 8 points and need to unbind a spell, we lose all 8. I hate that. I feel like it disincentivizes you from using it for any lower option on the table than the amount you currently have. The secondary table is very nice, it helps a lot with those blood tithe abilities that just aren't good for the situation on the table. 

[Ravinsild]

1 minute ago, Gotrek said:

 

Bolded for emphasis. 

For summoning and why (I think) armies summon as they do: 

1) in 1.0 we summoned via bloodtithe. Mechanic remains, more options available

2) seraphon summoned via magic (casting spells), now they summon via magic (sacrificing spell slots to gain summoning points). Mechanic tweaked but still the same. Engine of the gods table now useful.

3) summoned via magic and splitting. Now summons via magic and splitting. Mechanic tweaked, core is still the same.

4) sylvaneth. Mechanic unchanged except for alarielles nerf

5) flesh eater courts. Mechanic unchanged.

6) slannesh: summoning completely overhauled on this one so I will concede the point for this army.

7) nurgle & legions: written specifically for 2.0 so no changes.

 

As you see,  GW just expanded on the mechanics already present in the armies that summoned so it makes sense that we would continue to use blood tithe to summon. Honestly, it's a good solid upgrade. Too often have I had blood tithe just building up because there wasn't anything useful to do with it. My only complaint about blood tithe is that we can't bank any of it. We get 8 points and need to unbind a spell, we lose all 8. I hate that. I feel like it disincentivizes you from using it for any lower option on the table than the amount you currently have. The secondary table is very nice, it helps a lot with those blood tithe abilities that just aren't good for the situation on the table. 

If 1 - 1 = 0 but everyone else is at 2 - 1 = 1 then we're still behind. We basically get no benefit because everyone gets those benefits. They have just as much access to the realm artefacts as we do, in addition to the spells, so they're fighting us with the benefits of the artefacts and spells and expanded spell lore and we can't dispell whilst we have....just the artefacts. Do you not see this... or...? Everyone gets the baseline of artefacts, so it's not like we get a whole lot out of it when the same things we get out of it are being used against us and MORE. 

[Gotrek]

3 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

If 1 - 1 = 0 but everyone else is at 2 - 1 = 1 then we're still behind. We basically get no benefit because everyone gets those benefits. They have just as much access to the realm artefacts as we do, in addition to the spells, so they're fighting us with the benefits of the artefacts and spells and expanded spell lore and we can't dispell whilst we have....just the artefacts. Do you not see this... or...? Everyone gets the baseline of artefacts, so it's not like we get a whole lot out of it when the same things we get out of it are being used against us and MORE. 

By that logic nagash, arkhan, seraphon and tzeentch are the only ones who benefit from malign sorcery because they can take the artifacts AND cast more of the realm spells than anyone else. We. Still. Benefit. We have access to new toys. Just because other people also have access doesn't mean we don't benefit. You don't lose your car just because someone else can buy the same make/model or buy a faster car.

 

It's not a zero sum game. We have new tools in our toolbox, sure everyone else has them too, but that doesn't mean they can use them as effectively as we can or bring as many of them to bear as we can. 

[Jamopower]

But if the meta changes due to the new magic being good mostly for those armies that get those bonuses to casting,  to a situation where those armies that are better at casting represent a major part of armies at events, which is not in any way an impossible scenario, then surely everyone else will be worse off even if they get the new toys, as they are so much worse at using those toys? 

[Gotrek]

14 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

But if the meta changes due to the new magic being good mostly for those armies that get those bonuses to casting,  to a situation where those armies that are better at casting represent a major part of armies at events, which is not in any way an impossible scenario, then surely everyone else will be worse off even if they get the new toys, as they are so much worse at using those toys? 

That's part of the game. Mortal wound spam was a big deal for a long time and it warped the meta. Alpha strike armies were a big deal and they warped the meta. Like i said, we will not see the top 10 in most major events, i accept that. Those spots will always be for the armies that can pull meta warping skew builds off which we dont do anymore (/pours beer out for murderhost). But we wont be on the bottom table because of our faction. Khorne is strong enough and resilient enough to stay in the upper 50% of standings.

[Ravinsild]

21 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

But if the meta changes due to the new magic being good mostly for those armies that get those bonuses to casting,  to a situation where those armies that are better at casting represent a major part of armies at events, which is not in any way an impossible scenario, then surely everyone else will be worse off even if they get the new toys, as they are so much worse at using those toys? 

Hey you said the thing I was saying but with different words so maybe it will make more sense now to other people. Thanks

[JackStreicher]

Out of interest: 

Is there somekind of meta list? 

Faction name followed by a brief comment on the army build:

LoN (Nagash and NEF)

Nurgle (Glottkin and Pusgoyles)

etc.

?

[Nos]

In 20 odd years of following and watching (more than playing or painting sadly) a variety of GW games the only one I would ever consider having even close to balanced strategic gameplay would be Warmaster. The best things about GW products, namely their outrageously rich factional breadth and depth in terms of character and their narrative design, are anathema to a balanced experience.

Things have improved somewhat now that GW has committed to updating and developing errata and FAQ etc in respect to competitive aspects but when compared to other wargames and even most other mini games the rules of nearly all GW's stable are manifestly more interested in creating a narrative experience than a strategic one. Which I think is good! But it's not the place to truly test your military mettle, which is why all the most powerful lists andfactions end up being tedious spammy and weird. From a winning perspective the rules favour inbalance so that's where it goes competitively. 

[Scythian]

Daughters of Khaine are doing just fine! My army is nastier now with the new rules. 

[Karchev23]

My beloved Kharadron Overlords got knocked down a peg,but we still stand defiant

[MOMUS]

5 hours ago, Karchev23 said:

My beloved Kharadron Overlords got knocked down a peg,but we still stand defiant

How are you thinking of playing the 5th new mission, places of  arcane power?

[Gecktron]

20 minutes ago, MOMUS said:

How are you thinking of playing the 5th new mission, places of  arcane power?

Barak-Urbaz allows you to take a second artifact without getting a battalion. So that could become extra useful when used together with the realm artifacts. 

[Karol]

New realm spells and the new artefacts seem to be the thing to use. Magic got buffed a lot, and armies that can do it well got better, it also happens that a lot of those magic armies have good summoning rules, so they have a clear adventage over magicless armies. I hope for a rules update soon, as the GH failed to deliver any, because being forced in to playing it double bad. First it is bad, because it gets boring fast and it gets even worse when you don't have the model collection to run the battalion. LoN can work without Nagash or Arkan, sepaphon can work well without playing a kroak bomb, other armies should be the same.

Also I don't know why armies that don't have good summoning or good magic got price increases on most of their unit and battalions. I get it if something like blades of khorn was over running tournaments with wins, but it seemed like it wasn't the case and the rules changes and the lack  of an up to date battltome doesn't seem to warrent the need for a nerf.

[bonzai]

My main army is Bonesplitterz. We got a mixed bag this edition. A few things got reduced in points, while some key things went up. Kunning rukk got hit the hardest, but is still workable in my opinion. Main change is that people will start having to bring bubble wrap thanks to the changes in shooting.

A big change to our army also comes by way of allies. We can now use the greenskin warboss'es command abilit to great effect. The Rogue Idol just got better, and the fungoid cave shaman is a real interesting option.

My prediction is that heavy casting armies are going to be all the rage for the next six months or so. In particular Seraphon, Tzeentch, Lords of the Sacrement, and possibly the new Stormcast. To counter that I am running a Drakkfoot warclan.  I'll be pumping up casting bonuses to 3+ or more to try and force through the increased dispelling range. I'll have 6 spells/dispells a turn, and will have dispelling bonuses as well. If things do get through, I can flat out ignore spells on a 6+, and any mortal wounds on a 6+. 

I'm not sure how competitive the Drakkfoot is, as the it costs 340 points in battalion costs. But with Kunning Rukks knocked down a few pegs, and the magic heavy meta I'm predicting, it seems like the right environment to try it out.

My other army is Clan Verminus Skaven. I haven't played them since the last generals handbook as my army took a tremendous beating. Removal of the clawpack, changes to the standard bearer, and the crown of conquest getting nerfed to only work 1/3 of the time forced me to shelve them. Now with the new rules, I got a little points reduction, my warlord on a broodhorror got better, and the crown of conquest is once again useful. It doesn't quite make up for all that it lost, but it's enough for me to dust it off and use it as a softball list as my wife learns how to play her new nighthaunts.

[Kugane]

My skaven: less mediocre, still mediocre?. They will be stuck in shadespire for the time being it seems. Really hope we get an update =). We don't need new models. Dont need fluff. It can be a downloadable pdf with no warscrolls and just allegiance abilities, battalions and some artifacts etc, I will even pay for it if needed, but please great horned one, give us something!

[Matador]

Well I'd have to say that the Wanderers got the biggest buggering in the GHB18 when it comes to Allegiances, hands down.  * Disclaimer: I'm not a bitter Wanderers player.

I don't play a Wanderer army but I have always liked them and their abilities, and have often thought about starting one. When I would play against them I could often see some pretty scary options over the course of a match, I would sweat bullets biting my tongue waiting to see if my opponent saw it as well. Simple problem from my point of view was they cost waaay too much, I had hoped their point costs would be brought down in the GHB. That did in fact happen (Thanks GW) but they gutted the allegiance ability and removed the main reason to play them for me. They went from a squishy too expensive army with some really unique potential to a squishy army. 

Bummer, glad I didn't start buying em though. 

Otherwise, I don't think most players have really sussed out just how much the armies have been tweaked (that included the designers.. hehe) with the 'wholly within' changes here and there, and the absence of those changes in other places. If nothing else, second edition has filled my limited free time with piles of mental comparisons and recalculations.  

[Matador]

On 7/16/2018 at 2:41 PM, blueshirtman said:

LoL If they start new battle tomes by nerfing the old stuff, what I understand is painful for people with already good armies, I wonder what they are going to do with BCR. I mean they could make them worse, but they are already bad

I have to agree with you there! as a mental exercise I spent 3 days pouring through the book for a young player trying to squeeze least some kind of cheese out of them or edge and got nadda. May just be bad luck, because I don't think GW could made the buffs, battalions, and warscrolls any less complementary  to each other by intentional design. In the end BCR are a sad example of model leading game theory no-man's land. 

Glad I haven't bought any myself.