Alternative "9th Ed" WHFB lore

[Cèsar de Quart]

Hi there.

I know this may not be very popular here, this being mostly an AoS forum and everything, but ever since I started to appreciate the AoS lore more, I also realised that many of the ideas for AoS could be applied to the Old World, given enough leeway.

So, I was wondering if there's anyone who has made a well-rounded alternative lore to include the AoS factions and ideas into the Old World setting. I am in the process of doing this but I'd like to know if there's other attempts, especially successful ones. And I'm not talking about the 9th Age lore, which is just WHFB lore but with different names.

If there's interest I'll also post what I have. The Stormcasts are the faction that's the most difficult to include without the attempt losing all semblance of coherence, but in my case, I've reworked them into Chamon-infused golems that Balthazar Gelt created with the last dying breath of the reborn Sigmar, in order to stop the End Times.

Thanks.

[Swooper]

Stormcast were planned even before AoS, though. There's John Blanche artwork to prove this somewhere, even.

[SuperHappyTime]

I think there may still be enough people around who would enjoy the setting.

Assuming Mannfred doesn’t kill Gelt is pretty much assured. I think the biggest problem is how you deal with the billions of Skaven, and the Khorne who would destroy most of the order forces.

[EccentricCircle]

In many ways the two settings could fit together quite well. The Mortal Realms could very easily complement the old world, rather than replacing it. They are basically warhammer's answer to D&D's planescape, except that the "Prime" isn't in a seperate reality, but rather at the centre of the plane. Even the more "Mundane" centres of the planes are a bit more high magic than the Old World, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine that the Old World is still there, but that when the Winds of Magic blow strong you might accidetnally wander into the Realm from which they blow.

This always seemed to basically be the case with the Realm of Chaos, so having eight other realms within the winds wouldn't be too much of a stretch. People from the Empire didn't just wander into the Realm of Chaos at the drop of a hat (although it was possible). Thus there's no reason to assume that they would suddenly be able to go and pay Sigmar a visit in Azyr either.

There is a question of why Sigmar hasn't sent Stormcast to fend off the latest chaos invasion of Kislev, but I don't think thats actually too much of an issue. The Mortal Realms are so vast, and have so many problems in them that theres no reason to assume that a few beastmen in the Old World would be high on the gods list of priorities.

I don't think you'd need to change much except in broad strokes. A few WHFB characters are now gods, so they clearly can't be hanging out in their old homes. Some of the old gods are dead, but my understanding is that the new gods assumed their portfolios when they ascended. Thus there is no reason to assume that those deities don't still exist as aspects of the gods.

As to the Mortal Realms you would need to remove the slagged core of the Old World from the heart of Sigmar's palace, but I kind of think that thats about it.

 

[VBS]

I also thought about this and see it very viable, even the "original" AoS factions wouldn't be hard to fit into an alternative Old World continuation-setting. As mentioned above, SCE would be Gelt/Sigmar creations to compensate the decimated Empire. Chaos, Death, Destruction don't have anything particularly out-of-the-box for the Old World.

Order has 2 different cases, but I think that KO would easily fit as a natural continuation to the regular Dwarves that got their bastions destroyed, and so seek refuge in the skies. As for creepy aquatic elves that live in a pineapple under the sea, Ulthuan sunk with a load of elves so....

Make the setting a few centuries after the ET, where the Incarnates managed to close the rift at a high price, many died and all that, landscapes/geography changed (Lustria no more for instance) and magic/fantasy up to 11 due to god-like beings (Incarnates) and winds of magic camping free. Even story arcs like Slaanesh's chaining could work by blurring the frontiers between "reality" and Realms of Chaos, where Chaos isn't as untouchable as usual.

 

Also, I think the Forge World Tamurkhanthing had the intentions of publishing further books that had an alternative arc, with Tamurkhan destroying the Empire, Karl dying and all that. I wonder if they still have that project somewhere....

[Cèsar de Quart]

7 hours ago, Swooper said:

Stormcast were planned even before AoS, though. There's John Blanche artwork to prove this somewhere, even.

I'm not saying they might have been planned (hints in the last army books already tell of GW's intention to blow up the Old World), I'm just saying I don't like them in the Old World. They're too much of a juggernaut as they are, and my idea is to atomize the Old World, make the threat of Chaos disappear for a while, throw a deadly plague, and see how the butterflies create beautiful change.

7 hours ago, SuperHappyTime said:

I think there may still be enough people around who would enjoy the setting.

Assuming Mannfred doesn’t kill Gelt is pretty much assured. I think the biggest problem is how you deal with the billions of Skaven, and the Khorne who would destroy most of the order forces.

By altering the way the End Times played out. The Skaven have been there, in the billions, for a long time. The only thing that changed was the appearance of the Horned Rat demons to unite the Skaven. If we avoid that, or make the different Vermin Lords squabble among themselves, then we've got ourselves a threat, yes, but not the end of the world kind of threat.

7 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

In many ways the two settings could fit together quite well. The Mortal Realms could very easily complement the old world, rather than replacing it. They are basically warhammer's answer to D&D's planescape, except that the "Prime" isn't in a seperate reality, but rather at the centre of the plane. Even the more "Mundane" centres of the planes are a bit more high magic than the Old World, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine that the Old World is still there, but that when the Winds of Magic blow strong you might accidetnally wander into the Realm from which they blow.

This always seemed to basically be the case with the Realm of Chaos, so having eight other realms within the winds wouldn't be too much of a stretch. People from the Empire didn't just wander into the Realm of Chaos at the drop of a hat (although it was possible). Thus there's no reason to assume that they would suddenly be able to go and pay Sigmar a visit in Azyr either.

There is a question of why Sigmar hasn't sent Stormcast to fend off the latest chaos invasion of Kislev, but I don't think thats actually too much of an issue. The Mortal Realms are so vast, and have so many problems in them that theres no reason to assume that a few beastmen in the Old World would be high on the gods list of priorities.

I don't think you'd need to change much except in broad strokes. A few WHFB characters are now gods, so they clearly can't be hanging out in their old homes. Some of the old gods are dead, but my understanding is that the new gods assumed their portfolios when they ascended. Thus there is no reason to assume that those deities don't still exist as aspects of the gods.

As to the Mortal Realms you would need to remove the slagged core of the Old World from the heart of Sigmar's palace, but I kind of think that thats about it.

 

I prefer to keep them separate, otherwise we get continuity problems.

Actually, I like the planes idea, but I'd like the Old World to remain as well. So, why not make the Incarnates close the rift, only to be cast out into the Aetherium? I would not go so ballistic on the characters, and keep most of them alive, at least for now. Thorgrim, Abhorash, Morgianna, etc.

7 hours ago, VBS said:

I also thought about this and see it very viable, even the "original" AoS factions wouldn't be hard to fit into an alternative Old World continuation-setting. As mentioned above, SCE would be Gelt/Sigmar creations to compensate the decimated Empire. Chaos, Death, Destruction don't have anything particularly out-of-the-box for the Old World.

Order has 2 different cases, but I think that KO would easily fit as a natural continuation to the regular Dwarves that got their bastions destroyed, and so seek refuge in the skies. As for creepy aquatic elves that live in a pineapple under the sea, Ulthuan sunk with a load of elves so....

Make the setting a few centuries after the ET, where the Incarnates managed to close the rift at a high price, many died and all that, landscapes/geography changed (Lustria no more for instance) and magic/fantasy up to 11 due to god-like beings (Incarnates) and winds of magic camping free. Even story arcs like Slaanesh's chaining could work by blurring the frontiers between "reality" and Realms of Chaos, where Chaos isn't as untouchable as usual.

 

Also, I think the Forge World Tamurkhanthing had the intentions of publishing further books that had an alternative arc, with Tamurkhan destroying the Empire, Karl dying and all that. I wonder if they still have that project somewhere....

My thoughts exactly.

Another idea was that, due to the saturation of magic when the vortex unwinded, Chaos simply collapsed and retreated. But the world went cataclysmic with the magic winds running amock, turning deserts into glass, woods into fiery wastes, rivers into sap lava flows, wastes into paradise forests, seas into labyrinths of mist... (not to mention Morrslieb falling into Lustria and creating a nuclear winter of sorts, and a lot of small warpstone moonlets and quite a lot of Mordheims)

+++

This is my general outline (cue to Babylon 5 style intro, "It was the year of fire...")

The year is 395 of the New Age, 2917 according to the Old Imperial Calendar.

-Altdorf is no more. Site of the Doom of Karl Franz, there he fought Archaon and lost, only to be reborn -at a terrible price. The city was devastated and covered in darkness for a century. Karl Franz defeated Archaon but vanished. He didn't reappear until the last battle was to be fought at the slopes of Middenheim. The heart of Reikland is now an accursed place, a natural frontier between the three entities that dispute the Imperial succession.

-Middenheim was evacuated and diminished greatly, but it is still the seat of the Todbringers, now the Wolf Emperors. Nominally at least, because the Todbringers lead the Hetmanate, a league of warlords and hosts that roam the Northern provinces and Kislev. Originally they were supposed to fight the remnants of Archaon's invasion, but they have since then supported the Todbringer's claim to the Imperial Crown, and they roam the land pillaging and extorting (also, defending, when needed, and for a price), but they will do anything in the name of Ulric.

-Determined to protect mankind, a much diminished Balthazar Gelt continues to steer what remains of the Southern Empire into a technologically advanced nation capable of defending itself against the threats without -and within. The Southern Empire, led by the vainglorious and foppish Emperor Kasimir von Liebowitz, is secretly controlled by the Collegiate Arcane and its Lodges, with Gelt behind it all. They use the infused powers of magic to propel steam engines and arcane contraptions capable of anything. Automatae, cogforts, you name it. The good thing here is that we can play with Gelt dealing in necromancy, but not in such a ridiculous manner as in the End Times, but in order to bind souls into machines, in order to make them "smarter". This may be the inciting incident (not random zombies killing Aldebrand Ludenhof...).

-The son of Karl Franz (who was present in older lore but just disappeared from scene of late), Luitpold, was an obvious choice to be elected, but due to his rashness and inexperience, he was not chosen. The Diet was in gridlock for years, until Luitpold decided to go off on adventures of his own. When he returned he encountered an Empire at the brink of war. He called for another Diet, but during the sessions Volkmar had denounced Gelt for witchcraft and Todbringer didn't even show up. Von Raukov and the Eastern nobles said that, to them, it was Todbringer or nothing. Nuln and Averland retreated in order to protect Gelt and his machinery, proclaiming Emmanuelle Empress shortly after. 

-Luitpold, then, was proclaimed by the remaining Counts, but it counted for little. Embittered, he avoided the ruins of Altdorf, and went north, to Marienburg, devastated by the Curse of the Years. He and Volkmar vowed to rebuild the city and make it a paragon of faith, observance and nobility. It was the beginning of the Griffinate. 

Four hundred years later:

++ the Southern Empire has become a plutocracy of wizard-engineers, captains of industry and traders who wander ever further in search for rare materials needed for the alchemy and thaumaturgy that fuels the furnaces of Nuln. Emperor Kasimir is just a figurehead.

++ The Hetmanate remains a loose league of cossack warlords and bands of what used to be the Order of the White Wolf and Kislevite Hosts, ever on the look for Beastmen and Orcs. Emperor Alkin Todbringer is but another Hetman, to them. Alkin is always with his most trusted advisor, Gregor Bagratin, a black-beared guru who claims to be the vessel of the Flame of Ulric, and who is said to be able to stare into any man's soul through his deep eyes.

++ The Griffin Empress Carmina has married King Foulc the Leper of Bretonnia. The state religion is an intepretation where Sigmar is the consort of the Lady. Both nations had an affinity of principles: faith, chivalry, a distrust of arcane technology and magic... Needless to say, the Grand Teogonist is not happy.

++ They Fey Enchantress was even more upset. She openly seceeded from Bretonnia in search for a better king. She went to Mallobaude V, who claimed to be a descendant of Louen Leoncoeur and had been claiming the crown from Aquitaine for a long time. When she discovered that Mallobaude V was, in fact, Mallobaude the first, the same one that rose in rebellion against Leoncoeur during the End Times, she retreated into Carcassonne with the last of the noble breed of Bretonnia. Here is where Bretonnia survives as we know it in 2522.

++ Vlad von Carstein, of course, is the Dead Emperor of Sylvania, although Manfred has risen back from the dead recently and counterclaims Vlad's claim.

There's a map - some of the most crazy things are not there (like the effect of heavily magical places, like a fjord in Norsca that is misty all year, which leads to God know where, or a crystal landscape in southern Tilea which glows, or the old Tobaro, a city trapped in amber. Maybe the river Mortis now flows with the Waters of Life, thanks to a Shard to Isha having impacted on its source, undoing Nagash' curse.

In green, greenskins. In brown, beastmen. In purple-ish, Vampire corruption (some vampire lords choose not to corrupt, like Mallobaude.

I also like to think that this new world has been reshaped, like Eru did with Middle Earth, but in reverse; now this world sometimes is not flat. If the winds of magic blow strong, portals are created and vessels drift into Chamon, Hyish, Shyish, Ulgu... there can be a lot of Pirates of the Caribbean crazy stuff.

[EccentricCircle]

Very cool.

[gjnoronh]

Storm Cast could easily work in an alternate history where End Times didn't result in the destruction of the world.   Sigmar incarnate creates Stormcast.

In fact a group continuing 8th ed into the modern era has made a Stormcast book for WFB 8th  

http://eefl.freeforums.net/thread/264/stormhosts-sigmar-army-list-draft

You have to add some fluff /history to make various things work but things like Idoneth Deepkin (Fishmen) have been joked about in the WFB lore for decades.    

 

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

3 hours ago, gjnoronh said:

Storm Cast could easily work in an alternate history where End Times didn't result in the destruction of the world.   Sigmar incarnate creates Stormcast.

In fact a group continuing 8th ed into the modern era has made a Stormcast book for WFB 8th  

http://eefl.freeforums.net/thread/264/stormhosts-sigmar-army-list-draft

 

The Stormcast just don't feel proportionate to the Old World setting. 

Besides, to me, one of the problems of the old setting was that seeing human factions battling the other, or humans vs dwarves or elves, was preposterous. The clock is one minute before mignight, the End Times is upon you, and the Duke of Parravon is battling the garrison of Helmgart because... of what? 

AoS gives freedom to experiment and a setting that's loose enough (it still lacks definition, but it will get there). 

So in here, I tried to give the Old World a nuidge towards decentralisation. The main human factions are three, they embody three very different approaches to civilization and warfare, and they are opposed in that the three claim the Imperial Crown. Also, with the winds of magic coagulating around the world, Chaos has lost its strength, for now, and the clock has been resert. Humans now can fall prey to their own ambitions and fight humans again. To do this, the End Times must be a lost cause for Chaos, but also the gods must not "walk among us". 

Even more so, the three main factions are less like unified states and more like loose umbrella entities; the Griffinate is Marienburg and Couronne, but its reach is not long; the Hetmanate is literally a loose league of warlords, horse-bound or not. The Southern Empire is more like a collection of militarised trade ventures and steampunk wizard expeditions. Each of those factions have a standing army, and weirder ones at the side, and there can be tons of other factions within, or at its peripheries. It's a lot less orderly, a lot less concrete, and a lot more flexible than WHFB's old lore.

Periodic storms of magic that transform a place are also nice ideas, or places or objects to which the winds bellow much more than the usual, changing the place over time. For example, why not lighten up the Darklands a bit? They're quite dull, to be honest. Let's give them three vortexes, one for the Wind of Life, one for the Wind of Death over Nagashizzar, and another with the wind of fire howling bravely over Zharr. The land now is much more interesting. At the same time, we've got Arkhan trying to establish his rule over the Plain of Bones against Chaos Dwarves and the Imperial Rockefellers, why not Wood Elves, exiled from Loren for henious crimes, becoming their own thing, with Indian influences? Why not Indians and Persians themselves conquering from Ind and Kuresh, trying to reclaim a land which was barren before but now is verdant and lush thanks to the Winds of Life blowing hard on this place?

Elephant Kings of Ind, the bizarre cavalcade of creatures and monsters from the Army of Sun Wo Kung, the legions of the Dragon Emperor, the Ogre Kingdoms... this area has become now 200% more interesting. To me, at least.

 

[EccentricCircle]

I love the idea of "Steampunk Wizard Expeditions"! Just saying...
 

One question i've been mulling over since reading your setting a few days ago is this: If the end times are aborted then should there be a new Everchosen of Chaos?

Its always struck me as a little strange that Archaon is still kicking around in Age of Sigmar, millennia after destroying the world that he was fated to destroy. The fact that he fulfilled his destiny, but Sigmar still effectively won makes it feel like the Chaos Gods should really be looking for a new champion. It kind of feels as though GW has to keep him around, since they sell a really big model of him. However that wouldn't be a priority for, say, Tzeentch.

In a universe where the End Times ran their course, but the world didn't end I'd think that he would be even more surplus to requirements. It would also be interesting to see a little variety in the leaders of chaos. There were Beastmen as Everchosen in the past, so why not again? How would their leadership of the Chaos armies be different to that of a Chaos Warrior like Archaon?
If I were going to pick a model to be the new Everchosen I'd probably pick the Darkoath Warqueen, as I think there is a lot of potential in that archetype. If the clock on the end times is "reset" as you say above, then it might be interesting for a Norscan Queen to have united the disparate armies after Archaon's fall. She could be less of a conqueror, and more of a champion, going around dueling different chieftains to take control of their armies before they wander off and start fighting among themselves. Preparing for the day when the star of chaos is in the ascendant once again, and they can crush the empire once more.

[Cèsar de Quart]

4 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

I love the idea of "Steampunk Wizard Expeditions"! Just saying...
 

One question i've been mulling over since reading your setting a few days ago is this: If the end times are aborted then should there be a new Everchosen of Chaos?

Its always struck me as a little strange that Archaon is still kicking around in Age of Sigmar, millennia after destroying the world that he was fated to destroy. The fact that he fulfilled his destiny, but Sigmar still effectively won makes it feel like the Chaos Gods should really be looking for a new champion. It kind of feels as though GW has to keep him around, since they sell a really big model of him. However that wouldn't be a priority for, say, Tzeentch.

In a universe where the End Times ran their course, but the world didn't end I'd think that he would be even more surplus to requirements. It would also be interesting to see a little variety in the leaders of chaos. There were Beastmen as Everchosen in the past, so why not again? How would their leadership of the Chaos armies be different to that of a Chaos Warrior like Archaon?
If I were going to pick a model to be the new Everchosen I'd probably pick the Darkoath Warqueen, as I think there is a lot of potential in that archetype. If the clock on the end times is "reset" as you say above, then it might be interesting for a Norscan Queen to have united the disparate armies after Archaon's fall. She could be less of a conqueror, and more of a champion, going around dueling different chieftains to take control of their armies before they wander off and start fighting among themselves. Preparing for the day when the star of chaos is in the ascendant once again, and they can crush the empire once more.

Archaon being there was clearly a callback. A bit lazy, but I let it slide because the more they keep from the old lore, the better to me. Otherwise Archaon would be substituted by Slaughterman Perfidax or Bloody McBlood or some such bloke, generic and dull (and Archaon is quite generic and dull if you only read the army books).

Also, he's now Grand Marshal of the Apocalypse? Wasn't Chaos some sort of anarchy at its base, the position of Everchosen being one of very tenuous authority?

I love your idea of the Norscan Queen rising up to the task of uniting the tribes again. But yeah, why not a beastman everchosen? A dragon ogre? A... skaven?

I'm also at a loss of ideas when I try to think of a way to play the End Times in the way I want it to end up. Any ideas? I know that some people have tried to "amend" the bad parts of the End Times (I'm looking at you, Teclis allowing for Finubar's death or Gelt candidly practicing necromancy in the park) but do you know of any good attempt?

[EccentricCircle]

A skaven Everchosen would be hilarious, though I can't see many chaos warriors actually getting behind them, or them being good at their job for very long.

I've not actually read the End Times books, so don't know much about the mechanics of what happened beyond what's on TVtropes. I guess the question is to what extent you want to stick with the established canon, and to what extent you are comfortable changing things to suit the ongoing narrative you have planned?

Considering it as two parallel universes, where do you put the divergence point? Is it at the end of the arc, when the world has seen all of those trials, but order triumphs at the 11th hour, or is it at the start, when things begin to take a slightly different course?

 

[SuperHappyTime]

My thought regarding Stormcast is to turn them into “Daemons” of Sigmar. To retcon, Altdorf initially fell to Chaos, Sigmar’s resurrection through Franz cleansed Altdorf and remade it into a paradise. Slowly, he rebuilds the Empire with stormcast at the forefront of the counterattack.

[gjnoronh]

For what it's worth I think the Old World better explained 'good guy vs good guy' battles then AoS.  AoS has Sigmar providing strong central authority over the forces of Order in general and specifically the Stormcast.    Hard to explain battles between forces of order in AoS (except for 'training exercises.)  

The decentralized backstabbing nature of Old World history made it easier to explain those  Empire vs Empire etc battles. 

  

[Cèsar de Quart]

2 hours ago, SuperHappyTime said:

My thought regarding Stormcast is to turn them into “Daemons” of Sigmar. To retcon, Altdorf initially fell to Chaos, Sigmar’s resurrection through Franz cleansed Altdorf and remade it into a paradise. Slowly, he rebuilds the Empire with stormcast at the forefront of the counterattack.

Of course, this is as good as any headcanon can be. It's just that I don't want Sigmar rebuilding the Empire. No gods, just men. I feel it's more interesting this way.

This is also my biggest complain about the new Dark Imperium in 40k. It was great when the Imperium was this headless machine that ran on human toil, sweat, pain and its own inertia, with the High Lords being petty noblemen, idle politicians or ruthless miopic little men. There was a dark irony to it. But then they drop a Roboute Guilliman, a Primarch, onto the setting, and suddenly all the pain, the loss, the blood, it's all on him. Before, it was on no-one. Now it's on him, because he's a demigod who can survive the void of space and punch a daemon prince in the face. If he's running the Imperium and things keep on being as miserable as always, doesn't that diminish Roboute's aura of great statesman?

3 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

A skaven Everchosen would be hilarious, though I can't see many chaos warriors actually getting behind them, or them being good at their job for very long.

I've not actually read the End Times books, so don't know much about the mechanics of what happened beyond what's on TVtropes. I guess the question is to what extent you want to stick with the established canon, and to what extent you are comfortable changing things to suit the ongoing narrative you have planned?

Considering it as two parallel universes, where do you put the divergence point? Is it at the end of the arc, when the world has seen all of those trials, but order triumphs at the 11th hour, or is it at the start, when things begin to take a slightly different course?

 

No, a Skaven Everchosen would be a very short lived experiment.

1d4chan, as abrasive as it can be, has a summary of the events, faction by faction, while the Warhammer wiki has a chronological account of the tale. It's not bad, it's just so irregular and awkward at points. But other parts pack a serious punch. I was actually moved by the Sundering of UIthuan, and the scene where Karl Franz dies and is reborn as Sigmar (unknowingly to the reader, at that exact moment the Vortex was undone and the Wind of Heaven escaped and fell on Altdorf like a twin-tailed comet. Beautiful). It's got copious amount of fanservice and not very properly set up points (Khalida and Neferata holding hands as the world ends, or Abhorash coming to Gilles' aid to defend Bretonnia against the daemons, Vlad von Carstein being made a lawful Elector and helping the Empire...

I'd say the crux of the End Times was that the Skaven really did most of the heavy lifting to prepare the world for the Chaos legions. The books of the End Times are called:

Nagash, where the Death Lord comes back to life through a ritual enacted by Arkhan and Mannfred, proceeds to destroy Nehekhara, and lifts up his Black Pyramid. Mostly serviceable.

Glottkin, where the Nurgel army invades the Empire and ends, if I remember correctly, with the rebirth of Karl Franz as the Incarnate of Heaven (Sigmar)

Khaine, which tells the fall of Tyrion and the levels of ruthless "just as planned" Teclis dabbled into in order to save the world. I liked that the High Elves were the biggest Machiavellian gits of the setting so far. Even more so than the Slann.

Thanquol, where the Skaven resurrect the Horned Rat on the Thirteenth Hour and end up blowing Morrslieb, which falls to the ground.

And finally Archaon, where the world ends after the Incarnates try to create a new Vortex but Mannfred stabs Gelt in the back, the winds disperse, the world is doomed and Sigmar and Archaon wrestle at the last pocket of reality for Ghal Maraz. 

So, aside from the Skaven not being so efficient, the POV should include something that changes how some of these characters act. Nagash can be as successful, but the Glottkin need to tone it down. Tyrion should fall tragically but Teclis should stop being a bad chap, or we'll be left without a setting. Thanquol is the one who needs to either disappear, or turn against Chaos. And finally Archaon must be defeated one second before midnight. I'm fine with Archaon not rising again and becoming the new Be'Lakor.

 

For what it's worth I think the Old World better explained 'good guy vs good guy' battles then AoS.  AoS has Sigmar providing strong central authority over the forces of Order in general and specifically the Stormcast.    Hard to explain battles between forces of order in AoS (except for 'training exercises.)  

The decentralized backstabbing nature of Old World history made it easier to explain those  Empire vs Empire etc battles. 

  

I agree.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, SuperHappyTime said:

My thought regarding Stormcast is to turn them into “Daemons” of Sigmar. To retcon, Altdorf initially fell to Chaos, Sigmar’s resurrection through Franz cleansed Altdorf and remade it into a paradise. Slowly, he rebuilds the Empire with stormcast at the forefront of the counterattack.

Interesting thought. And what if just like in AoS he needs to mine the core of the world for the sigmarite his warriors need? And what if that is massively destabilising the core of the planet, with all sorts of unpredictable and dangerous effects on its surface - so in 'saving' the world from Chaos, he's actually turning it into even more of a living hell. What if he's constantly stuck in a moral dilemma between making that last big push against Chaos but at the risk of completely destroying the world in the process?

[gjnoronh]

For those interested in the end times lore I'd strongly recommend Garagehammer's podcasts diving into that lore  

 

http://www.garagehammer.net/

[Cèsar de Quart]

2 hours ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

Interesting thought. And what if just like in AoS he needs to mine the core of the world for the sigmarite his warriors need? And what if that is massively destabilising the core of the planet, with all sorts of unpredictable and dangerous effects on its surface - so in 'saving' the world from Chaos, he's actually turning it into even more of a living hell. What if he's constantly stuck in a moral dilemma between making that last big push against Chaos but at the risk of completely destroying the world in the process?

Now, that's quite interesting. By creating order demons, Sigmar is making the world a more hellish place than before, but subject to his will and influence. Nice ideas.

I've also found a source for alternative 9th Ed lore called Endhammer. It's got a lot of cool points but it's not what I was looking for exactly. It's set a decade after the aborted End Times (via Tanquol warp-nuking most of the Chaos hordes for stealing the glory that should belong to him, and there's a cool tiger-headed beastman raj of Ind). 

[Cèsar de Quart]

2 hours ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

 

[Lord_Skrolk]

5 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

I'd say the crux of the End Times was that the Skaven really did most of the heavy lifting to prepare the world for the Chaos legions. The books of the End Times are called:

Nagash, where the Death Lord comes back to life through a ritual enacted by Arkhan and Mannfred, proceeds to destroy Nehekhara, and lifts up his Black Pyramid. Mostly serviceable.

Glottkin, where the Nurgel army invades the Empire and ends, if I remember correctly, with the rebirth of Karl Franz as the Incarnate of Heaven (Sigmar)

Khaine, which tells the fall of Tyrion and the levels of ruthless "just as planned" Teclis dabbled into in order to save the world. I liked that the High Elves were the biggest Machiavellian gits of the setting so far. Even more so than the Slann.

Thanquol, where the Skaven resurrect the Horned Rat on the Thirteenth Hour and end up blowing Morrslieb, which falls to the ground.

And finally Archaon, where the world ends after the Incarnates try to create a new Vortex but Mannfred stabs Gelt in the back, the winds disperse, the world is doomed and Sigmar and Archaon wrestle at the last pocket of reality for Ghal Maraz.

I'm confused, I'm new to End Times lore and bought some end times books. I literally have in my hand right now a book called The End Times IV: Rise of the Great Horned Rat from the Black Library. Read through it, super interesting to see the end of the Karak Eight Peaks storyline. (I started there because Skaven are my main interest, didnt care much about Nagash or High Elves) 

Is that book not canon anymore? Where does it fit into the timeline of those books? I'm reading Archaon now because I thought it was chronologically next. 

[Cèsar de Quart]

10 minutes ago, Lord_Skrolk said:

I'm confused, I'm new to End Times lore and bought some end times books. I literally have in my hand right now a book called The End Times IV: Rise of the Great Horned Rat from the Black Library. Read through it, super interesting to see the end of the Karak Eight Peaks storyline. (I started there because Skaven are my main interest, didnt care much about Nagash or High Elves) 

Is that book not canon anymore? Where does it fit into the timeline of those books? I'm reading Archaon now because I thought it was chronologically next. 

You're reading the novel, I assume. These are the campaign books. They have rules, but also lore. The novels focused on some aspects, and filled gaps (a much needed thing in the End Times).

 

[Lord_Skrolk]

10 minutes ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

You're reading the novel, I assume. These are the campaign books. They have rules, but also lore. The novels focused on some aspects, and filled gaps (a much needed thing in the End Times).

 

Okay. I never played WHFB or owned any of the books, so sounds like the books you mentioned were kind of like core books in AoS with lore+gameplay. 

Yes, Rise of the Great Horned Rat is a novel, and quite a fun one too! Queek was my favorite old world character so it did hurt my heart a bit, haha 

[Cèsar de Quart]

I've been giving it some thought and, the way I see it, there is still a lot of potential. Take Naggaroth, for example, a land utterly boring and underveloped. A whole continent of wilderness and beasts and the like, with Dark Elves on the northernmost bay and a colony of High Elves (confusingly called Arnheim) at the shores closest to Nagarythe. 

What if:

Naggaroth was, as per the End Times, overrun by Chaos and Malekith decided to  migrate to Ulthuan

The Vortex collapses, the Winds of Magic blow free and whirl around specific places, sometimes seasonally, sometimes randomly, sometimes forever. Parts of Naggaroth change forever. The Winds of Life blow strongly around the old Doom Glades, turning them into a sprawling forest. The innermost point of the forest is very dangerous, similar to entering the bubble from the movie Annihilation (people fuse with trees or animals) but the periphery is inhabitable and fertile. Parts of the Blackspine Mnts have exploded in a volcanic symphony under the direction of the winds of Aqshy, turning the surrounding lands into an ashen plain of choking death. Not far, the WInds of Death found an anchor around Clar Karond, the last stand of the Dark Elves against chaos, and its innumerable corpses. It is now the Grey Desert, an expanse of grey-amethyst sand which shifts and stirs as people die in the world. 

The races of the Old World have slowly re-emerged and Naggaroth, now a dangerous but uninhabitated wilderness, looks like an interesting place to settle.

First, the High Elves would have set up refugee colonies shortly after the Sundering of UIthuan. Each developed into their own kingdom, far apart or close together, but all different in their own right. Some of these might want to cling to the old ways, others may walk different paths. Monastic elves, explorer elves, merchant and prospector elves, or even, why not, new Dark Elves.

One particular group crosses the Obsidian Mountains and discovers the Serpent of Light, a being made of pure Hyish energy that promises enlightenment in exchange for hermeticism. This is Issith, and its relam of Issithië becomes some sort of cultist Gondolin.

Another group of elves take up to the skies on swifthawks and discover the Hanging Isles of Edray, on the isthmus, an area where Chamon is strong and the rivers glitter with gold and silver.

Now half of Naggaroth is diverse, interesting and not profusely inhabitated, but it's got its thing. Now let's throw humans and other races into the mix:

The first, of course, are the Hanseatic trade charters and mining prospectors. The Hansa claims a good chunk of the shores for its own use, a claim which collides head on with some Elven new colonies and with the Sylvaneth of the Petrified Forest.

Also, the "warp winter" is softening like the end of Frostpunk, and the ice that covers much of Northern Naggaroth is receding as well. Glaciers and snow melt and give way to passage into the Sea of Chill and uncover the ruins of Ghrond, Har Ganeth and Naggarond. The Viceroy of Albion, Lord Kinradd, claims the whole bay area around Karond Kar and re-establishes the old Druchii port, as well as opening trade routes (very dangerous trade routes) across the North in order to supply the Collegiate with rare magical elements they need for their alchemical-industrial shenanigans. Elf corsairs and Norse pirates roam the frozen trade routes for the promise of bounty.

Dwarves can also have migrated there, especially the Kharadron. Bretonnians too, in one of their Crusades. Maybe the Knights Panther have created a Priory of the New World, being as they are more like the historical Templars, landowners, bankers and all-around political bullies in the Griffinate.

Nipponese and Cathayans may also have migrated to the Broken Lands and the isles of the Western shore, which brings them into conflict with the Serpent of Light and the sky-elves of Edray.

There's room for much. The problem with the old lore was that races were usually too far apart. Land wars were difficult to picture. Let's shake it up and bring everyone together everywhere.

What of Lustria? What of the Southlands, the Darklands?

 

[EccentricCircle]

I like the idea of effectively advancing the Warhammer World into an era of colonial expansion. That seems like a really good progression from the canon era, where Marco Columbo has tried to invade the New World, and there have been conquistadors, but colonies haven't stuck very well.

In many ways keeping Lustria much as it was could work well. Maybe the mortal races have capitalised on the lizardmen's distraction to establish Caribbean style colonies along the Lustrian coast, but now the Slann have returned from their exile and want their jungles back, leading to a push back against the interlopers.

As a long time Lizardmen fan, I do kind of like the idea that the Slann have woken up in AoS and are taking the fight to Chaos, but having them able to teleport across the universe and summon armies at will might not work so well for a revitalised old world.

[Cèsar de Quart]

4 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

As a long time Lizardmen fan, I do kind of like the idea that the Slann have woken up in AoS and are taking the fight to Chaos, but having them able to teleport across the universe and summon armies at will might not work so well for a revitalised old world.

No, it won't help much to have Slann who can dream armies into existence and teleoport at warp speed materialising over Averheim or Couronne fraking everyone up.

I don't mind having half of Lustria (the part of the "Andes" where there's few temples) blown up by Morrslieb's pieces. Actually, it makes that half much more interesting. We've got a few temples who never left, or refused to leave, or were left behind, and other Slann skyships coming back to take what's theirs, and armies of conquistadors venturing into the jungle on the search for the "green gold" lef by Morrslieb, Elven exile kingdoms, Dark Elves and their Black Arks raiding the new inter-oceanic trade routes, the new sky-ways pioneered by the Kharadrons but slowly being taken over by the Hanseatic Imperials, we've got maybe even Dwarf colonies set in the probably rich not-Andes, Skavens coming for the Warpstone, we can also play with the famous "here be daemons" that appears in the Southern Continent in all warhammer maps, and let beastmen and other horrendous beings live in not-Argentina.

Actually, the people at Endhammer thought of a beastmen empire in Ind ruled by a beastman with a tiger head, all envisioned as South East Asian mythological hybrids. That was cool. What about jaguar beastmen? Tapir-headed, lama-headed, bison-headed, maybe it's there that we can place some kairic acolytes with their bird heads.