ianob Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 So I played a 16 player event today. There were 3 Nagash players (all with different armies). I played both of the other Nagashes, beating both and winning the event. However; it definitely feels hollow. I enjoyed playing the games (great opponents, tense moments, etc), but they were pretty much both dice offs. G1 I won because I went first on BPoV (not a death issue, the mission sucks though) and cast 7-8 spells successfully where he cast 0 round 1, and round 2 was a similar case, and it spiralled from there. G2 I hand of dusted Vhordrai T1 and that was that. I’m not going to say none of the games were down to lists - I certainly felt that my list was the better of the three (I run a Vamp Lord and Necro for Spells and upping hero count for missions) but they were both pretty much a case of winning some rolls more than skill. I hope the current Nagash fervour dies out, and it probably will when people realise how hard it is to win with him under a lot of circumstances. The lists are hard to play, very limited in their ability to win some missions due to high drops, get mauled by melee alpha, get mauled by shooting. We do have great matchups too and there is a lot of strength in the list (or I wouldn’t be playing it) but the meta is not kind to us and the mirror is frankly miserable! (Very tired so apologies if this is a hit rambly. Also full army lists and the event itself will be discussed in the podcast Thursday) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarmofseals Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 4 hours ago, ianob said: very limited in their ability to win some missions due to high drops I'd love to hear more specifics about this. I don't have the GHB2018 yet and so I'm not super familiar with all of the scenarios, and I also don't really know what scenarios are seeing a lot of use in tournaments. What particular scenarios do you see as particularly difficult for higher drop armies? I also agree with the main premise of your post. I do think it's awesome that Nagash is seeing competitive play, but I'd much rather him see niche play rather than be the "main" death list largely for the reasons you mentioned. I feel the same way about Kroak. He's a cool model that does cool things, but his mechanics lead to enough boring non-games that I'd rather see him be a niche choice. I find myself working on a Lords of Sacrament list and can't help but wonder if I should just be taking Nagash. I think Lords of Sacrament has a similar focus but leads to fewer boring games, but it's hard to pull the trigger knowing that I'm just going to be at a huge disadvantage in any game where I'm facing Nagash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted July 15, 2018 Author Share Posted July 15, 2018 If you click the link in my sig, we discuss the new scenarios in the latest episode of our podcast and we’ll be discussing them again this week. The gist of it is, that going second in better part of valour means you have a high chance of auto-losing if your opponent has fast units; and that going second in PoAP means you might never get into the objectives if your opponent’s army is fast. Dont despair about Sacrament; they are definitely just as playable as Nagash. The battalion isn’t - by the time you buy the battalion you should have bought Nagash instead imho - but Arkhan gets +4s to cast (meaning he casts better than an enemy Nagash unbinds!), can run Cogs for +1 spell, then still cast your most important three spells every turn (by far the most important spells you cast every turn are Fading Vigour, O-Dread and Vanhels danse), and leave you an extra 420 points to take a whole other unit on top. I’m going to be testing it more myself as I actually think it could be a better list than Nagash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortumnas Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Wait, do endless spells not count against the number of normal spells a caster can cast? I thought Cogs pretty much just gave you back the 'slot' you spent on it. It actually would take Arkhan from 2 normal spells to 3? Ah, man, just when I thought I had my list figured out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oogje Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 34 minutes ago, Vortumnas said: Wait, do endless spells not count against the number of normal spells a caster can cast? I thought Cogs pretty much just gave you back the 'slot' you spent on it. It actually would take Arkhan from 2 normal spells to 3? Ah, man, just when I thought I had my list figured out... You let the necro or vl cast the cog. How did the grimghast perform? Absolute blenders? Massive bummer that you had to face the mirror matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 15 hours ago, Oogje said: You let the necro or vl cast the cog. How did the grimghast perform? Absolute blenders? Massive bummer that you had to face the mirror matches. Arkhan always casts the cogs if you use them. No one else is hitting 7 regularly enough. @Vortumnas casting an ES does use one of your spells for the turn, of course. Grimghast have been incredible in testing and continued to be incredible on the day. My round 3 opponent also had a unit of 30. I dont want to say they're power-crept compared to our other units but... yeah. It was a bummer, but I'm glad it happened once at least since I hadnt played it in testing. It confirmed for me that the mirror was miserable and confirmed for me that if Nagash is super popular, I probably dont want to run him as I wont enjoy losing to an unlucky dust-off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevar Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Just to agree with the general tenor of this thread, I am really getting sick of Nighthaunt mirror lists as well. While 'mirror' can be defined by different people differently, I hate when I am playing against someone with basically the exact same models and unit profiles as me, even if we arranged our armies in a slightly different way. It feels like a hollow game to me when there is so many options out there. I love all the new love for Death, but I can't wait for the next shiney AoS release that isn't Death so all the bandwagoneers move on and I have much less mirror games. If they did something like completely remake the Free Guild or High Elves or something, that would probably draw off all the trendies. Also, just so it's clear, I love all the new Death players who are excited and here to serve Nagash or pick Death back up. The people I am talking about are the ones who just bought the Soul Wars box or the new releases and will just be selling them soon and moving on. Everyone knows those people. They are likely the same ones in your gaming area that were playing Idoneth not a month ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 12 minutes ago, Nevar said: Just to agree with the general tenor of this thread, I am really getting sick of Nighthaunt mirror lists as well. While 'mirror' can be defined by different people differently, I hate when I am playing against someone with basically the exact same models and unit profiles as me, even if we arranged our armies in a slightly different way. It feels like a hollow game to me when there is so many options out there. I love all the new love for Death, but I can't wait for the next shiney AoS release that isn't Death so all the bandwagoneers move on and I have much less mirror games. If they did something like completely remake the Free Guild or High Elves or something, that would probably draw off all the trendies. Also, just so it's clear, I love all the new Death players who are excited and here to serve Nagash or pick Death back up. The people I am talking about are the ones who just bought the Soul Wars box or the new releases and will just be selling them soon and moving on. Everyone knows those people. They are likely the same ones in your gaming area that were playing Idoneth not a month ago. Agree. Also, the reason that *this* mirror match is so frustrating in particular is how much it can swing regardless of player skill. You can be a lot better and a lot more experienced than the other guy who's playing bandwagon-Nagash, but you can still lose to a coinflip (or a series of coinflips) almost regardless of skill level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I'm curious what your full list was, and how it played out against other, non nagash lists? Do you know how the other Nagash lists fared apart from against you? I guess the answer to how quickly nagash craze will die down comes down to how successful nagash lists are doing generally. IME, my opponents just do not know how to handle him, which is not the same as them being unable to. I actually deliberately don't bring him to the table very often, in part to keep him feeling special, but in part also specifically so that those opponents don't have the chance to get used to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephisto Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I've been haunting a few different threads that you've also been in, @ianob, and you seem like a man of thoughtful opinion. I'm curious which of the two you favor between Grimghast Reapers and Bladegheists just in general. Here you really seem to sing their praise and in another thread you (understandably) praise both units but highlight their different roles. I wonder which you like better in a vacuum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenshin620 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Where there realm specific artifacts at your games? I've been hearing some tournaments considering to ban them primarily because their balance is quite wonky (well it is kind of hard to balance 7 realms x 12 items) especially in reference to either Lens of Refraction or almost the entire Shadow/Ulgu realm artifact list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 1 hour ago, kenshin620 said: Where there realm specific artifacts at your games? I've been hearing some tournaments considering to ban them primarily because their balance is quite wonky (well it is kind of hard to balance 7 realms x 12 items) especially in reference to either Lens of Refraction or almost the entire Shadow/Ulgu realm artifact list. We allowed them and I ran Lens. I think they’re fine personally other than a couple. I’d rather see specific bans than the whole list not used - so many factions in this game have so little artefact choice, I think they’re a good way of evening out the playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Mephisto said: I've been haunting a few different threads that you've also been in, @ianob, and you seem like a man of thoughtful opinion. I'm curious which of the two you favor between Grimghast Reapers and Bladegheists just in general. Here you really seem to sing their praise and in another thread you (understandably) praise both units but highlight their different roles. I wonder which you like better in a vacuum. In the other thread I was talking about their differing roles in Nighthaunt. In Nagash I’d stick to Grimghasts as a) you need them to be bodies and cover a lot of board real estate and b) I want them to benefit from deathless minions (however GW decide to faq that) 5 hours ago, Sception said: I'm curious what your full list was, and how it played out against other, non nagash lists? Do you know how the other Nagash lists fared apart from against you? I guess the answer to how quickly nagash craze will die down comes down to how successful nagash lists are doing generally. IME, my opponents just do not know how to handle him, which is not the same as them being unable to. I actually deliberately don't bring him to the table very often, in part to keep him feeling special, but in part also specifically so that those opponents don't have the chance to get used to him. Both other Nagash lists went 2-1 with me as their only loss. I agree that Nagash is scarier than he is actually effective, but a lot of his power does indeed stem from the fact that people overestimate him (and I see people on this death forum overestimate him constantly). For example my round 2 opponent threw him into a unit of 40 skeletons and they killed him in 2 turns, which I was confident of. I’m pretty convinced I could smash my own list with a bunch of stuff - Stormcast would shred it, most things with any alpha on a lot of the current missions can beat it easily, decent shooting presence can easily kill Nagash, and lots more. He’s a nightmare if you don’t cone equipped to deal with him, but he certainly has tough games vs what will be common tier 1 lists and I think/hope that as a result he will get less popular fast when people realise that they don’t get free wins vs good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephisto Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, ianob said: We allowed them and I ran Lens. I think they’re fine personally other than a couple. I’d rather see specific bans than the whole list not used - so many factions in this game have so little artefact choice, I think they’re a good way of evening out the playing field. ^^this. I like Realm Artefacts overall. They give armies like Beastclaw Raiders anything to take at all. Everyone can select from the same list so there's no surprises, only optimization. And thanks for the perspective on Grimghasts/Bladegheists. My sentiments are similar from a pure theorycraft stance. I'm just going to pretend that 30 of my extra skeletons are grimghasts to playtest and get a feel for if I personally like them before I commit to buying them. My friend's Mixed Order list always gives a good workout for playtesting. I do want to mention that I don't strictly run Nagash. I also have a separate Legion of Sacrament list that I built pre-2.0. It has... gotten better with the new edition and part of me feels like gravitating toward that list going into Gencon and NOVA. I don't look forward to the mirror matches for Nagash and I'm hoping that as people finish their Nighthaunt armies or realize that Sacrament is a power house, the wave of "bandwagoners," as Nevar put it above, will recede. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critch93 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Is there any other battle reports from that tournament?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenshin620 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 1 hour ago, ianob said: We allowed them and I ran Lens. I think they’re fine personally other than a couple. I’d rather see specific bans than the whole list not used - so many factions in this game have so little artefact choice, I think they’re a good way of evening out the playing field. Yea thats what my thoughts on the realm artifacts are, really good for the armies that either ave none, or have ones that aren't worth using up a space for. Though it is a tad silly that selecting a realm on the warscroll builder combined with Legions of Nagash creates the worlds longest artifact drop down menu! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadkitten Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Ah the Mirror! Being able to crack it will definitely become a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortumnas Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 12 hours ago, ianob said: Arkhan always casts the cogs if you use them. No one else is hitting 7 regularly enough. @Vortumnas casting an ES does use one of your spells for the turn, of course. Thank you. That's what I thought, so it threw me for a loop when I misunderstood your post above. So, if I'm understanding correctly, you're strategy is: Arkhan casts Cogs, uses them, then casts 2 out of the 3 of O-Dread, Vigour and Van Hels, and a necromancer casts the third. For 490pts, that's a pretty nifty little packet of magic. On subsequent turns, do you bring in the offensive spells in that additional slot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 5 hours ago, Vortumnas said: Thank you. That's what I thought, so it threw me for a loop when I misunderstood your post above. So, if I'm understanding correctly, you're strategy is: Arkhan casts Cogs, uses them, then casts 2 out of the 3 of O-Dread, Vigour and Van Hels, and a necromancer casts the third. For 490pts, that's a pretty nifty little packet of magic. On subsequent turns, do you bring in the offensive spells in that additional slot? Personally I wouldn’t run Cogs in LoN unless they were for the charge (pop up from Grave > charge on a 7). Imho the value of Death spells decreases dramatically outside of those 3, and getting a 4th is not that great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oogje Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 cogs speeding up skeletons does seem extremely powerful, What endless spell would you rather fit in a Nagash list? Or is there no room for it? Also I'm going to shout dust off next time I cast hand of dust ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 Podcast is up, in which we discuss the list, general Nagash lists, Nagash mirrors, and other stuff! http://podcast.justplaygames.uk/tournament-winning-nagash-further-aos-v2-thoughts-and-blackout-prep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lwatt1 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 @ianobgreat episode, question Ian what makes you take vamp lord over a guardian of souls? Or is just what you had available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 34 minutes ago, Lwatt1 said: @ianobgreat episode, question Ian what makes you take vamp lord over a guardian of souls? Or is just what you had available He moves 10” which is vital for grabbing objectives T1 (main reason) He is a baller in combat capable of fighting off other similarly sized enemy heroes and with his chalice regen, or killing them outright for instant cap on duality/PoAP His command ability helps wiping out tough units or mopping up for kill points in time-stretched games Even though the GoS can legit take spells from either lore right now, it’s a bit of a push imho so I prefer to avoid that argument GoS is certainly the better on paper choice with my Grims, but the Vamp Lord fills a hole in the army. Nagash lists have a big weakness to certain scenarios that he fixes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lwatt1 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Thanks for the breakdown, what spells did you run on everything is there anything you would have changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyel Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Thanks for the episode! Found it quite interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.