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Clarification on Banners and Musicians


portablezombie

Question

This is specifically related to Maggotkin, since that's what I'm working on, but is really a general question.

I'm currently putting together a ton of Maggotkin models. I've got 30 plaguebearers total - the way the sets are split, I've got three icon bearers, three pipers, and three champions included with the rank and file. If I'm understanding this correctly, I can run all of them in a 30 man formation, with the multiple standards, etc legally, but can I only use one standard, champ, etc at any given time?  Or can I have three icon bearers and/or pipers?

The rule for Icon Bearers states:

Quote

Models in this unit can be Icon Bearers. If the
unmodified roll is a 1 when making a battleshock
test for a unit that includes any Icon Bearers,
no models from the unit flee. Instead, D6
Plaguebearer models are added to the unit.

Related, the rules for the Pipers state:

Quote

Models in this unit can be Pipers. Re-roll
battleshock rolls of 1 for enemy units while they
are within 6" of any Pipers.

So does that mean that I can run three Pipers, effectively creating three 6" bubbles? Or am I limited to one active Piper?

And finally, in looking at the two models, if they are within 6" of each other, does the Piper negate the Icon Bearer ability? Or can I choose not to reroll the unmodified 1 and gain the Plaguebearers?

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In every game I've ever played of AoS, tournament or otherwise people have always stuck to the command aesthetic from WHFB. 1 champ, 1 standard and 1 musician, to take multiple of any would be IMO against the spirit of the rules and I'm yet to see an example of this being condoned by GW in books and/or on video.

The 'pick up banner' rule was only in WHFB and has never been in use in AoS, no examples of this in use in books on video.

I've only ever seen it played as when the banner, musician or champ dies, they're dead. End of. It teaches players to actually think about model placement. 

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On 7/14/2018 at 4:46 AM, Overread said:

It's also generally accepted (and it might even be in the rules somewhere) that when you remove a musician or standardbarer you can swap it for a remaining unit in the formation.

I’d like to actually see a ruling on that rather than just assume. GW has historically gone back and forth on things like this, and there’s a few abilities that let you kill specific models, and some people try to target these types of models with those abilities on purpose.

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On 7/13/2018 at 10:10 AM, portablezombie said:

I've got 30 plaguebearers total - the way the sets are split, I've got three icon bearers, three pipers, and three champions included with the rank and file. If I'm understanding this correctly, I can run all of them in a 30 man formation,

You can run multiple Pipers and Icon Bearers, but each unit can only have one Champion.

On 7/13/2018 at 10:10 AM, portablezombie said:

So does that mean that I can run three Pipers, effectively creating three 6" bubbles? Or am I limited to one active Piper?

You can have 3 pipers. And each has their own bubble.

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1 hour ago, MOMUS said:

Against the spirit of the rules as in RAI rather than what you are arguing which is RAW.

Im yet to see an example of GW condoning multiple standard bearers/musicians. I also haven't seen it at any independent tournament supported by GW.

I run a large independent GT supported by GW.   My event was the first AoS GT in the US.   My pack and as far as I can recall the other packs I looked at for examples of rules sets over the AoS era are largely silent on this issue.  

Maybe we should be more specific but it's generally not addressed in rules pack.  

That being said GW has  addressed the question in their FAQs/Erratas

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_skaven_pestilens_designers_commentary_en.pdf

"Q: On the Plague Monks warscroll, the option is given for models to be Icon Bearers with standards, or Plague Harbingers with instruments. The warscroll states that any model in the unit can be an Icon Bearer or a Plague Harbinger. Does that mean I can equip my unit of Plague Monks with both options from both categories? A: Yes, you may take multiple standards and instruments in a unit if the warscroll allows it."

That's the only specific discussion I'm aware of outside of the previously mentioned Namarti Thralls but it sure seems to suggest take as many as you want.

 

 

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On 14 July 2018 at 10:34 AM, michu said:

It's not against the spirit of rule. Warscrolls clearly states that MODELS (plural) can be standard bearers and musicians. Even with Namarti thralls after FAQ you can have two icon bearers if you have unit of 20 models.

Against the spirit of the rules as in RAI rather than what you are arguing which is RAW.

Im yet to see an example of GW condoning multiple standard bearers/musicians. I also haven't seen it at any independent tournament supported by GW.

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As it is the rules for most icon bearers and musicians mean that there's really no point taking more than one, the unit bonuses don't stack its really only where you have multiple options or an ability that's based on the model's location as is the case with pipers in plaguebearer units. Thing is you're unlikely to ever see more than 1 of each per minimum unit size because the benefits are never enough to justify going out and buying enough to make a unit that are all icons or musicians. The only advantage it provides is positioning and removing casualties. If there's ever an overpowered way to use something it they tend to FAQ it fairly quickly. For example the netters in the above post though they are essentially a special weapon option rather than an icon bearer or musician.

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With Namarti Thralls you can field one icon for 10 models in unit. That sounds sensible and I think it's probably the best solution. Similar situation was with Moonclan Netters and they number in unit was reduced from unlimited to max. 3, if I remember correctly.

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Honestly I think its a rule area that needs revision to make it more sensible. At present the sensible thing is to take all banners and musicians for every unit except the champion. And the rules allow you to do that without any restriction, you don't even take a combat penalty for it. 

 

I agree that visually its far better to have one of each per unit on the table, it looks better and makes "sense". 

 

I'd welcome them putting back the limit to one of each per group and then either having that as it, if they die you lose it; or introducing the "pick up" rule from fantasy. Either way would work and removes the almost silly idea that banners/musicians are an option that you'd equip to every unit and thus would only lose once the entire unit is dead (which takes it from being an upgrade to just being standard stats for the unit). 

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Most warscroll rules allow any number of models to be musicians or icon bearers. The key is that the effect is only applied to the unit once, it doesn't upgrade or get better. The only advantage to taking multiple is where they can take multiple items or the effect is based on a single model not the unit as a whole, for example the FAQ for clan pestilens states that you can take multiple standards and musicians and make use of both icons and both musician options on the warscroll, however you can only take one champion so you do have to choose between the champion options. Similarly the plaguebearers scroll states that the effect is based on distance to the pipers themselves not the unit as a whole so I'd say they're encouraging the use of multiple pipers.

 

TL,DR You can take as many icon bearers or musicians as you like but effects that apply to the unit whole unit do not stack. In the case of plaguebearers you could certainly take multiple pipers to widen the area of effect and based on the warscroll I would even say this is encouraged.

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It's not against the spirit of rule. Warscrolls clearly states that MODELS (plural) can be standard bearers and musicians. Even with Namarti thralls after FAQ you can have two icon bearers if you have unit of 20 models.

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Ok, so the question remains though - if an upgrade offers a bubble effect (6" or whatever,) which model does that bubble come off of? With my three Pipers example, if my Plaguebearer unit is flanked on both sides by two different units, in two different combats, and my Pipers are to the extreme flanks of each other, do I get that 6" bubble for each. or does it only apply to one of the models?

Poorly drawn example:

k5sJEnP.jpg

Black is the Plaguebearers
Red are the Pipers (light blue is their 6" bubble)
Green is enemy unit 1
Blue is enemy unit 2

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Aye that it might be, but on the flipside if every single unit can be a standardbearer and musician without any penalty then it would stand to reason that any sensible player would make every unit both options so that the benefit can never be denied them during combat. 

Visually, however, that would look all kinds of silly. So I see it as  practical way to represent the rules whilst visually retaining the aesthetic for the unit. It is one area that I am surprise GW hasn't made some formal ruling on. either to let you formally swap or to formally limit the musician/standard to a single unit each and to have that unit perma-die when killed (or swapped when killed). 

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It's also generally accepted (and it might even be in the rules somewhere) that when you remove a musician or standardbarer you can swap it for a remaining unit in the formation. So that they are the last to die in the unit rather than being picked off. This is generally seen as when the musician/banner goes down another unit grabs it and holds it aloft. Different to a leader unit since they have different stats and are supposed to be, thus, differently trained and thus something you can't just "pick up off the ground". 

So instead of having every unit carry both (which would look odd) you just swap models over whenever they die off. 

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It depends, but most abilities are worded that way to work on a "yes-no" principle. If unit has musician they can do that, if not they can't, e.g. Saurus Guard ability says "Models in this unit may carry wardrums. A unit that includes any wardrums can march in its movement phase. When it does so it doubles its Move characteristic, but cannot run or charge in the same turn". That means as long as there is a musician in the unit, it can move twice its normal distance, but you don't double it again for each musician you have in the unit.

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Yes, you can. You can make all your models standard bearers and musicians, unless it's forbidden by warscroll (Namarti Thralls). And the re-roll is for your enemy - if he rolls a one during battleshock phase he must re-roll, not you.

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