Jump to content

6 Nations take aways


Recommended Posts

16 minutes ago, Mayple said:

Is it correct that Kroak in cover, summoning a balewind, would get a +2 to his save? (+1 from cover, +1 from balewind) - While also benefiting from "Look out sir"?  ?

With the chromatic cogs (which he'd want to do anyway) he'd then end up on a 2+ re-rollable save, correct?

Much less concerned about the single turn damage output than I am about the unkillable summoning beast if all of the above is true ;)

Given that the Balewind is over 3” tall he might not hit the base to base measurement to actually allow the look-out-sir as measurements are now officially base to base. (Because the measurement would be from his base to the base of the unit within 3”)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 263
  • Created
  • Last Reply
2 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Given that the Balewind is over 3” tall he might not hit the base to base measurement to actually allow the look-out-sir as measurements are now officially base to base.

You'd be measuring from the BWV itself, because that counts as part of the model now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Bleaurgh .... :( , “treated as a single model” However he could be killed by surrounding it ... and dispelling it. 

Yeah. I think dispelling is the only reliable way of taking him out. A simple skink bubblewrap will make any hope of getting to him before dying horribly to the return fire very difficult indeed. And even if you reach him, that save is no joke.

We'd need some early spell removal..

Some kind of..  Alpha-Dispelling ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Mayple said:

Yeah. I think dispelling is the only reliable way of taking him out. A simple skink bubblewrap will make any hope of getting to him before dying horribly to the return fire very difficult indeed. And even if you reach him, that save is no joke.

We'd need some early spell removal..

Some kind of..  Alpha-Dispelling ?

Just hurl a couple grots at him.

Nothing can repel firepower of that magnitude...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I hate the Lens. How are they supposed to make any relics around mortal wound protections ever again? Are they going to make something MORE powerful than 6" 'essentially immune to damage coming from spells'? Isn't this the EXACT SAME design problem that led to Battlebrew being changed?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Talk with the person to stop fielding boring-a** Auto-win lists and try to play narrative but with matched play rules.

communication matters.

 

@Skabnoze

as for gametesting:

they din‘t Have the time to run as many tests with as many individual scenarios as the community does. Apart from that: Idon‘t think they have the so common mindset of: uhh that looks broken as hell, I gonna abuse the hell out of this rule. - a mindset too many players have for some reason.

players tend to ruin their game all by themselves.

 

Communication doesn't matter if the intent is to improve. If you're both playing your competitive lists in an attempt to improve, it's going to be very similar lists every time and adding narrative nonsense just waters down any possibility either of you have at actually getting better. Handicapping yourself so that GW doesn't have to take responsibility for their shoddy game design is ridiculous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, rokapoke said:

So it’s theoretically possible that the play testers were not really able to fully break the lists the way the community can, since the community faces a wider range of skill levels. 

I do believe you have described is an utterly unavoidable result of play testing any product.  As everyone here seems to have discovered, in 10 days the community has played more AoS 2.0 than all the playtesters combined could have played in 10 years.  At this point I would not be surprised if this single online community has the combined experience of tens of thousands of games by now.

We are all taking that info and mixing it up and stirring it up in the tga-cauldron and learning what we can from it.  We should absolutely take what we learn and let GW know about it for their FAQ process.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Kamose said:

I do believe you have described is an utterly unavoidable result of play testing any product.  As everyone here seems to have discovered, in 10 days the community has played more AoS 2.0 than all the playtesters combined could have played in 10 years.  At this point I would not be surprised if this single online community has the combined experience of tens of thousands of games by now.

On the flip side of that, some things don’t require much more than reading comprehension.  I have not managed to play a single 2.0 game with my Moonclan army yet.  But upon release of the pre-release errata I was able to simply read the untouched command ability for the Moonclan warboss and say:  “oh hey, hooray for exponents!  Time to put all my base-2 math knowledge to use”

Some things don’t necessarily require large amounts of playtesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

On the flip side of that, some things don’t require much more than reading comprehension.  I have not managed to play a single 2.0 game with my Moonclan army yet.  But upon release of the pre-release errata I was able to simply read the untouched command ability for the Moonclan warboss and say:  “oh hey, hooray for exponents!  Time to put all my base-2 math knowledge to use”

Some things don’t necessarily require large amounts of playtesting.

Double flip side. It has been heavily hinted that we will get a new grot battletome very soon. It is probable that moonclan playtesting was set as a low priority if it was going to get its own dedicated playtesting a bit later. 

As for the mega powered grot,  did we even discover if the grot list won the game? A horde list giving up inspiring presence in exchange for one super charged combat phase seems like a pretty big gamble. 

The ability is certainly extremely powerful but it does not seem to be an auto win. You will probably only be able to do a big stack on that combo once a game, and I can think of some pretty easy counters. Also a mega damage grot is hilarious. Part of me hopes it does not change.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Chikout said:

Double flip side. It has been heavily hinted that we will get a new grot battletome very soon. It is probable that moonclan playtesting was set as a low priority if it was going to get its own dedicated playtesting a bit later. 

As for the mega powered grot,  did we even discover if the grot list won the game? A horde list giving up inspiring presence in exchange for one super charged combat phase seems like a pretty big gamble. 

The ability is certainly extremely powerful but it does not seem to be an auto win. You will probably only be able to do a big stack on that combo once a game, and I can think of some pretty easy counters. Also a mega damage grot is hilarious. Part of me hopes it does not change.

 

Yeah, I have wondered if a battletome is close enough that they just plan to fix that interaction there.  It would make sense.

As for the winner being grots - I doubt it.  But interactions like this are not healthy for the game in general regardless of whether it is an auto-win button or not.  Even as a Moonclan player I would prefer that things this absurd are not in any of the allegiances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

As for the winner being grots - I doubt it.  But interactions like this are not healthy for the game in general regardless of whether it is an auto-win button or not.  Even as a Moonclan player I would prefer that things this absurd are not in any of the allegiances.

Genuine question. Why are interactions like this bad for the game?

Is it simply that a grot should not be that powerful? 

To me it looks like the grot player would have to build a list around this exploit, not use command points on other things, get the the units in the correct position and make the charge against a suitable unit. Getting a massive reward for ensuring that all falls into place sounds exciting not frustrating. 

If someone managed to pull that off against me I would be impressed, not angry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mayple said:

Yeah. I think dispelling is the only reliable way of taking him out. A simple skink bubblewrap will make any hope of getting to him before dying horribly to the return fire very difficult indeed. And even if you reach him, that save is no joke.

We'd need some early spell removal..

Some kind of..  Alpha-Dispelling ?

Except kroak ignores effects that would instantly kill him.

So he'd simply take d6 mortal wounds and then enter the ethereal plane of existence, not being placed and yet......... Not being killed ??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Vextol said:

Except kroak ignores effects that would instantly kill him.

So he'd simply take d6 mortal wounds and then enter the ethereal plane of existence, not being placed and yet......... Not being killed ??

... And trapped in the infinite loop of being slain and taking D6 mortal wounds... And yet not being unable to place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Chikout said:

Genuine question. Why are interactions like this bad for the game?

Is it simply that a grot should not be that powerful? 

To me it looks like the grot player would have to build a list around this exploit, not use command points on other things, get the the units in the correct position and make the charge against a suitable unit. Getting a massive reward for ensuring that all falls into place sounds exciting not frustrating. 

If someone managed to pull that off against me I would be impressed, not angry.

I guess some level of "realism" is what many people are expecting from a wargame. A single goblin taking out 32 enemies due being commanded to do so is stretching it. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Chikout said:

Genuine question. Why are interactions like this bad for the game?

Is it simply that a grot should not be that powerful? 

To me it looks like the grot player would have to build a list around this exploit, not use command points on other things, get the the units in the correct position and make the charge against a suitable unit. Getting a massive reward for ensuring that all falls into place sounds exciting not frustrating. 

If someone managed to pull that off against me I would be impressed, not angry.

You don’t have to build a list around that strategy.  The standard Moonclan warboss is 100 points and has the command ability.  He can trigger that command ability on any model in the entire allegiance.  

However, the ability is best used on the common grot unit since they get a horde ability that adds +1 to wound at 20 models and +2 to would at 30 models.  That sounds like a lot of models until you realize that the unit is purchased in blocks of 20 models for 130 points, caps at 60 models, and gets a max unit price reduction.

Most Moonclan grot players will have a couple of units of 40-60 kicking around the table.  Doing 16 damage per spear poke on a 4+ roll to wound requires the player to spend 4 command points.  I will agree that it is a lot of command points, but you can easily do it by banking 100 points off your list to start with 2 and then on turn 2 you have 4 to dump in order to annihilate something.

But honestly, I don’t think that is even the best way to run grots - simply the most flashy.  Doing 16 damage per grot when the unit is on 25mm bases, has a ton of models, and has 2” reach on Spears is simply overkill.  If you spend just 2 command points then you can most likely decimate most units you meet with 4 damage per spear poke.  And you can do that a bunch of times throughout the game.  Also, Moonclan has little else to effectively use their command points on aside from Inspiring Presence right now.

But all that is not why I say that is bad for the game.  What I think is bad for the game are unintended and uncurbed rules interactions and I am pretty certain this one was not forseen by the dev team.  I can point to many unforeseen rules interactions in 40k and Fantasy that heavily bent certain armies or editions over the years.  The more stuff like this that is left the more it turns an edition into a straw house and eventually they can fall down.

Games are much healthier on the whole when interactions are mainly planned for and intended.  They are also better when bent rules are adjusted.

It is also often bad for Moonclan players as it means that every new  unit added to the army will require attention to make sure this rule does not break anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Keith said:

Just a quick question , did the Khorne player get to summon lots of stuff ?

 

In five games I summoned 5 flesh hound once. That won me that game. Otherwise the blood tithe table is better. I often used the apoplectic frenzy on the BT to finnish something of or the autodispell. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, InvalidUsername said:

Communication doesn't matter if the intent is to improve. If you're both playing your competitive lists in an attempt to improve, it's going to be very similar lists every time and adding narrative nonsense just waters down any possibility either of you have at actually getting better. Handicapping yourself so that GW doesn't have to take responsibility for their shoddy game design is ridiculous.

You are aware that a non-maxed our list would need you to be a super good player in order to win against a maxed out list, right?

it sounds to me like you are ruining the game for yourself.

 

trying to max out a game while missing what it is about (fun) is absurd to me.

you could also see it this way: using abusive combos and units makes you a bad player since you will require less skill to win than you would without it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

 

But all that is not why I say that is bad for the game.  What I think is bad for the game are unintended and uncurbed rules interactions and I am pretty certain this one was not forseen by the dev team.  I can point to many unforeseen rules interactions in 40k and Fantasy that heavily bent certain armies or editions over the years.  The more stuff like this that is left the more it turns an edition into a straw house and eventually they can fall down.

Games are much healthier on the whole when interactions are mainly planned for and intended.  They are also better when bent rules are adjusted.

It is also often bad for Moonclan players as it means that every new  unit added to the army will require attention to make sure this rule does not break anymore.

Thanks for the explanation. I agree that putting 5 or 4 command points on one unit is overkill. I guess I'm not convinced that these rules are unintended. The double stack on the grots makes the army good, but I don't think it makes it broken. Do you think people will be winning tournaments with this strategy? I see it as a good way of making a grot list a competitive contender and as such a good thing.

The new command point system will bring up a lot of powerful options for many armies. At this point it still seems hard to differentiate between very good and broken aside from a few very extreme cases like Kroak. I don't see the grot ability, however good it looks on paper, as falling into the broken category. 

The playerbase seems a little scared of powerful abilities. For me, the existence of these abilities makes the game exciting. 

The things that frustrate me are the abilities that limit interactivity which is why I am still not really in favour of alpha strike armies, despite being a Ko fan. I think generally aos2 is better in that regard, with the changes to command abilities, endless spells and wisely keeping the alternating combat activation system. 

I feel like GW is a perpetual struggle between creating unique fluffy rules and maintaining balance. I worry that the game will become homogenised and boring if too many of the rough edges get smoothed out. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets keep some perspective here though guys.

Are the broken things - the actually broken ones (command stacking, Seraphon summoning, Kroak, maybe others that we havent spotted yet potentially) really broken? Yes. Horribly!

Are they hard to fix? Hell no.

Is the game overall good, and even moreso, an improvement on v1? Absolutely!

The game is in a fantastic state overall and has a few outliers. The sky is not falling. These outliers need fixing, immediately, for any events to have any kind of competitive integrity, but the fixes are very easy, and the number of things that are broken is very small. Like I said a few pages back, I'm confident GW will fix these things quickly as I'm sure they don't want these to exist (and they've already made a start on command point stacking, see Prophet of the Waagh and Nurgle Daemon FAQs for example, before 6N happened - these things were all being discussed well before 6N)

It's fine to be frustrated about broken stuff getting through in a game you love, and people should not be bashing those who are upset and want to see these things fixed, either. But remember that it can be fixed and shouldn't take too long to do so. We should be good!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

You are aware that a non-maxed our list would need you to be a super good player in order to win against a maxed out list, right?

it sounds to me like you are ruining the game for yourself.

This is hilarious! Thanks for the laugh man. 

"Oh just handicap yourself, it'll totally translate over. It's not like specific matchup knowledge is important, and it's not like you'll ever need to be able to beat a player of equal skill with a maxed out list to win a game!" Next you're gonna tell me I can improve  my jump shot by only shooting with cinderblocks on my feet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, InvalidUsername said:

This is hilarious! Thanks for the laugh man. 

"Oh just handicap yourself, it'll totally translate over. It's not like specific matchup knowledge is important, and it's not like you'll ever need to be able to beat a player of equal skill with a maxed out list to win a game!" Next you're gonna tell me I can improve  my jump shot by only shooting with cinderblocks on my feet.

*sigh* 

you are the incarnation of what is wrong with the competetive community.

we are talking about a GAME here - one that Doesn‘t even require a lot of skill and one that is mostly won by lists and matchups.

and again it is a GAME. Stop taking it siriously like it is actually important to the world.

btw you actually can improve your jump power by binding bricks to your feet it‘s called training with weights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...