Can Age of Sigmar 2 be a competitive game?

[wayniac]

Honestly I don't feel that any GW game is suitable for a competitive game, despite people trying (and mostly succeeding) to make it look that way.  It's always been my viewpoint that GW games are best played in a relaxed social environment where you aren't just trying to theorycraft and metagame everything down to the "best" choices.  But everything, it seems, has to cater to that "e-sport" type of thing, no matter what it is; this goes far beyond just wargaming so is a much broader topic.

So basically:  Can it be a competitive game?  Yes, absolutely.  SHOULD it be a competitive game?  In my opinion, not at all.

[Xasz]

29 minutes ago, Infeston said:

The thing with the competitive mindset is that it wouldn't be such a big problem if competitive discussions weren't dominating 90% of all AoS discussions. Every discussion I read is about balance and everything which isn't about competitive play is often ignored or undermined. I for myself sometimes fear that this competitive mindset will shape the game in a way which I don't like. 

That's just the way it is, as competitive thinking naturally spawns (more or less valid) discussions and opinions. So it's not surprising that most of the material online is about exactly this. If that is such an issue for you, you should either change your mindset and just not care/stay away from this content or choose your online communities more wisely.

You may like it or in this case not, but you'll have to live with it.

(on another note, people who undermine narrative play or any other way to play most likely have other problems and are not worth the time)

[Infeston]

35 minutes ago, Xasz said:

That's just the way it is, as competitive thinking naturally spawns (more or less valid) discussions and opinions. So it's not surprising that most of the material online is about exactly this. If that is such an issue for you, you should either change your mindset and just not care/stay away from this content or choose your online communities more wisely.

You may like it or in this case not, but you'll have to live with it.

(on another note, people who undermine narrative play or any other way to play most likely have other problems and are not worth the time)

I wouldn't say this is the way it is. Because it was different in AoS before the introduction of points and GW trying to make the game more competitive. It was because of GWs decision to make AoS "competitively viable" that the discussions and topics changed this way.

I just think that in a world where everything is about competition and where you can't find any game, hobby or activity, which isn't about competing with each other, AoS was a game, which you could play differently most of the time. A game which provided a place to rest and flee from this competitive mindset, which is sometimes everywhere. And it still does, because GW still provides resources for narrative players.

But now AoS also gets sucked into the competitive spiral as many games before. And from my experience with more competitiveness also spawns more toxicity. toxic behaviour very often stems from environments, where people have to compete with each other. 

It is a slow evolution from a mindset to play together "with someone" to a mindset to play "against someone". And in my experience: the stronger the focus of a game on competitiveness - the bigger the toxicity gets. 

I know that there are competitive players who are not toxic. There are many respectful competitive players out there. But a strong focus on competitiveness often leads to more toxicity and more "that guys" in the future. If I look back at the forums and reddit before the first GHB there was a lot of creativity. People creating their own rules, people writing battle reports and telling stories, people writing backround stories for their models. There are still people doing this. But there are less people.

At the moment GW tries to provide something for every kind of player, which I like. But I still fear that some day they might move away from that, because of the pressure of the community to balance things. 

All the discussions are often about points, lists and viability. Nobody talks about cave battles or sky battles or all the other cool narrative rules.

[Xasz]

GW is supporting all aspects of AoS, which is awesome.

Furthermore people get their fix from different aspects of a game and a game will always evolve. (note, I mean general evolution, not that the competitive side is THE evolution and aspects of a game are not bound to narrative and competitive alone)

If you cannot accept that, gaming is probably not for you.

What you're writing sounds a lot like you want to live in the past and only your view or source of enjoyment is a valid one. Everyone that disagrees is just another heretic that does not understand the only way AoS is supposed to be played... 

To be honest, such a stance is pretty much as toxic as what you are describing.

[Infeston]

@Xasz That is not what I said at all. It might be your interpretation of what I said, but it certainly was not what I intended to say. Like you said, GW supports all aspects of play and I also still want them to.  But I also dont want them to move too far into the competitive direction with AoS.

The thing is that evolution can be interpreted very differently, depending on the person who looks at it. What you might see as a progression, I might see as a regression. And I think we as players decide in which way the game should evolve.

I never said that only my way to play the game is a valid one. I very often pointed out that I think that there should be something for everyone.

My problem is more about that most of the other players (narrative or open) problems gets overshadowed by the huge outcries of the competitive crowd in a way that none of the other feedback, which is not about competitive play is often ignored or overheard. 

And I feel the need to voice my opinion on this matter. But I don't want competitive play to go awy or anything like that. But I have to say that I also don't want GW to treat competitive play as more important than the other types of play. So I just wanted to voice that I don't think GW should focus too much on competitive play by ignoring other aspects of the game. There are enough competitive games out there where people can show off their skills. But AoS in my opinion, isn't a game which is especially suited for competitive play. 

You can play this game competitively, but you will propably miss out on a lot things, which make this game special. And if GW tries to cater to its competitive audience too much they might ruin things for other people playing this game. I just think that GW needs to be careful and consider the opinions of all the different players and not just the competitive crowd.