AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

[Lardidar]

This is glorious! @Double Misfire the champion of the ignored forces. You made me want Ironweld, now you made me want to set it in a free city. 

[Phantajisto]

Nice work! I'd really like to see GW redo the free cities for AoS2 because it's such a cool concept. They just had a clip on the livestream showing the firestorm ones and a load of other newer ones. 

How about a free PDF with new rules for all the free cities, to boost all the Order mini factions when you put them together into one themed army? Make it clear you can use them in matched play but only on top of Order allegiance. For each one I'd love to see something like:

PHOENICIUM:  

A army with the Phoenicium allegiance may be composed of units with the following keywords: Phoenix Temple, Stormcast, Free Peoples, Dispossessed, Sylvaneth, Wanderers, Wood Elves, Highborn, Swifthawk Agents. 

- Phoenix Guard units count as battleline.

- Add 1 to the 'Phoenix Reborn' roll for each Flamespyre Phoenix in the army. 

- No Defeat Unanswered: Each time a unit from this army is slain in combat, all other units reroll 1s to hit and wound in combat until the end of that battleround.

- Priests know the blessing Golden Mist: On a roll of 4+ all friendly units within 18" are -1 to hit with shooting.

- The Realm of Battle Allegiance must be Ghyran. 

 

 

 

[Nick in York]

With the new GHB in my hand and re-reading the Living City allgiance abilities page, I've changed my list to this:

Leaders:

Treelord Ancient 300 

Nomad Prince 80

Knight-Azyros 100

Branchwych 80

Branchwraith 80

Waywatcher 120

Battleline: 

20 Dryads 200

20 Glade Guard 240

20 Freeguild Archers 200

Other Units:

20 Eternal Guard 140

3 Vanguard-Palladors 200

3 Kurnoth Hunters 200

Total: 1940

This leaves me with 60 points for either a command point or endless spell.

 

 

[Aezeal]

7 hours ago, Phantajisto said:

Nice work! I'd really like to see GW redo the free cities for AoS2 because it's such a cool concept. They just had a clip on the livestream showing the firestorm ones and a load of other newer ones. 

How about a free PDF with new rules for all the free cities, to boost all the Order mini factions when you put them together into one themed army? Make it clear you can use them in matched play but only on top of Order allegiance. For each one I'd love to see something like:

PHOENICIUM:  

A army with the Phoenicium allegiance may be composed of units with the following keywords: Phoenix Temple, Stormcast, Free Peoples, Dispossessed, Sylvaneth, Wanderers, Wood Elves, Highborn, Swifthawk Agents. 

- Phoenix Guard units count as battleline.

- Add 1 to the 'Phoenix Reborn' roll for each Flamespyre Phoenix in the army. 

- No Defeat Unanswered: Each time a unit from this army is slain in combat, all other units reroll 1s to hit and wound in combat until the end of that battleround.

- Priests know the blessing Golden Mist: On a roll of 4+ all friendly units within 18" are -1 to hit with shooting.

- The Realm of Battle Allegiance must be Ghyran. 

 

 

 

Totally not OP for free abilities...

(yes... sarcasm)

[Double Misfire]

21 hours ago, Phantajisto said:

Nice work! I'd really like to see GW redo the free cities for AoS2 because it's such a cool concept. They just had a clip on the livestream showing the firestorm ones and a load of other newer ones. 

How about a free PDF with new rules for all the free cities, to boost all the Order mini factions when you put them together into one themed army? Make it clear you can use them in matched play but only on top of Order allegiance. For each one I'd love to see something like:

PHOENICIUM:  

A army with the Phoenicium allegiance may be composed of units with the following keywords: Phoenix Temple, Stormcast, Free Peoples, Dispossessed, Sylvaneth, Wanderers, Wood Elves, Highborn, Swifthawk Agents. 

- Phoenix Guard units count as battleline.

- Add 1 to the 'Phoenix Reborn' roll for each Flamespyre Phoenix in the army. 

- No Defeat Unanswered: Each time a unit from this army is slain in combat, all other units reroll 1s to hit and wound in combat until the end of that battleround.

- Priests know the blessing Golden Mist: On a roll of 4+ all friendly units within 18" are -1 to hit with shooting.

- The Realm of Battle Allegiance must be Ghyran. 

 

Great idea, I thought the exact same thing when I saw the new Stormhost and Tamurkhan's Horde allegiance abilities. Maybe we'll see some in a future supplement?

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Aezeal said:

Totally not OP for free abilities...

(yes... sarcasm)

Not really when you consider you can't take allies, you're far more restricted than Mixed Order, you can only pick artifacts from Ghyran, and everyone else's allegiance abilities are far more powerful.

[flamingwalnut]

The Free Cities are quite possibly my favorite aspect of Age of Sigmar. The amount of fun stuff you can do with them, as well as giving center for stories and Mixed Order armies and themes are just fantastic. That being said...none of the fun Free Cities allow all the factions I want. lol Greywater Fastness is about as close as I can get using what I have in my Mixed Order so far. But I always want more! I guess its Hammerhal for me... Can't have everything!

Would love to have a customizable Free Cities generator. Similar to the Kharadron Overlords one, where you can pick a combination of abilities and put in a number of factions. Make your own city! Would go well with the Free City lore generator they have.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

Oh wow, I REALLY need to get this book!

[kenshin620]

8 hours ago, flamingwalnut said:

The Free Cities are quite possibly my favorite aspect of Age of Sigmar. The amount of fun stuff you can do with them, as well as giving center for stories and Mixed Order armies and themes are just fantastic. That being said...none of the fun Free Cities allow all the factions I want. lol Greywater Fastness is about as close as I can get using what I have in my Mixed Order so far. But I always want more! I guess its Hammerhal for me... Can't have everything!

Would love to have a customizable Free Cities generator. Similar to the Kharadron Overlords one, where you can pick a combination of abilities and put in a number of factions. Make your own city! Would go well with the Free City lore generator they have.

I think the problem is they're afraid people would abuse that to get the maximum benefits with the least downsides like what happened back in the old 40k days where you could make custom space marine chapters or imperial guard regiments.

[Evilslicker]

Quick question, can i include any order wizard in a gnarlroot wargrove and still be able to use the living city rules?

[divineauthority]

50 minutes ago, Evilslicker said:

Quick question, can i include any order wizard in a gnarlroot wargrove and still be able to use the living city rules?

I'm sure there was an FAQ somewhere or maybe just in a GH to say that models in warscroll battalions count as having the keyword of that warscroll battalion. So stuff in a Sylvaneth battalion would have the Sylvaneth keyword and keep you safe for the Living City.

[makeshifts]

1 hour ago, divineauthority said:

I'm sure there was an FAQ somewhere or maybe just in a GH to say that models in warscroll battalions count as having the keyword of that warscroll battalion. So stuff in a Sylvaneth battalion would have the Sylvaneth keyword and keep you safe for the Living City.

One wee note is that they don't literally receive the Sylvaneth keyword. i.e. a Sylvaneth Wyldwood would still inflict mortal wounds on the wizard when "Roused by Magic".

2 hours ago, Evilslicker said:

Quick question, can i include any order wizard in a gnarlroot wargrove and still be able to use the living city rules?

This is a strange one as in this post:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/06/firestorm-matched-play-rules-update/

The example on allegiance abilities say given say:

"The only change is that you won’t be able to stack the allegiance abilities from Firestorm with any others apart from the Grand Allegiance abilities. For instance, a force of Dispossessed could either choose the Dispossessed allegiance abilities from the General’s Handbook 2017 OR the Order allegiance abilities and the Hammerhal allegiance abilities. They could not take the Dispossessed and Hammerhal allegiance abilities together."

This makes me think that once an army has been built even if it is a Wargrove it can then choose which allegiance abilities to use. 

But...

A Gnarlroot wargrove can include a Slann Starmaster and Skink Starpries, both of which are Seraphon and not allowed in a Hammerhal alligance. The only time Seraphon are mentioned in Firestorm alliances  is to disallow them from the one place that includes all others, leading me to believe they shouldn't be in any Firestorm alliance. :

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/18/the-armies-of-firestorm-hammerhal-sep18gw-homepage-post-4/

The wording is also interesting here:
"Hammerhal armies can use models from any Order faction barring Seraphon. "

To me this sounds like all models are chosen from the Faction to which they belong to when picking available factions. to be in a Firestorm allegiance.

Edited July 2, 2018 by makeshifts

[BaldoBeardo]

Just had a lengthy chat with @Double Misfire about this.

Very simply, the Free Cities aren't an allegiance or ally structure. They're simply an additional set of restrictions you accept for Grand Alliance abilities++.

For example, you take a Sylvaneth force with a Deepkin Wizard in the Gnarlroot Wargrove battalion.

You qualify for Sylvaneth Allegiance.

You qualify for Order Allegiance.

You *don't* qualify for Living City abilities on top of Order Allegiance because the Deepkin Wizard has none of the keywords permitted by the Living City list.

The fact that the wizard was brought in to your force via a WSB with the Sylvaneth allegiance doesn't make any difference as Free Cities don't allow for 'allies' the way a normal keyword faction does - it's an absolute keyword list.

[makeshifts]

That makes perfect sense, thank you for the succinct explanation.

[Jamopower]

I'm inclined to modify my Living city / Mixed order force in such way with the new command abilities, that I have subgroups for which I can use the command abilities on. Feels thematically cool and should be good enough on the battlefield as well.

So I could have warden king leading the Duardin contingent, Freeguild general (on Griffon) for the Human part and then a Wanderer or Sylvaneth Contingent. Though the Sylvaneth abilities are maybe not so useful. Also the treelord ancient summoning forests, that are now free combined to Branchwraith summoning dryads there sounds like it has some amount of synergy with the outflanking.

It could look something like this:

Freeguild General On Griffon (260) - Lance

Treelord Ancient (300)

Branchwraith (80)

Runelord (100)

Warden King (120)

UNITS

40 x Freeguild Guard (280) -Halberds and Shields

3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200) -Scythes

30 x Warriors (240) -Double-handed Duardin Axes & Shields - Runic Icon

10 x Liberators (200) -Warblades (the flanking unit)

5 x Judicators (160) -Skybolt Bows

TOTAL: 1940/2000

Feels nice and balanced. not too tough, but should be good enough to have a proper fight against most of the stuff. Maybe bit of additional shooting wouldn't be bad, but I don't have Kurnoths with bows.

In 1500, which i mostly play, I could drop the Warden king and the kurnoths and downgrade the general to horse mounted version.

[makeshifts]

6 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Just had a lengthy chat with @Double Misfire about this.

Very simply, the Free Cities aren't an allegiance or ally structure. They're simply an additional set of restrictions you accept for Grand Alliance abilities++.

For example, you take a Sylvaneth force with a Deepkin Wizard in the Gnarlroot Wargrove battalion.

You qualify for Sylvaneth Allegiance.

You qualify for Order Allegiance.

You *don't* qualify for Living City abilities on top of Order Allegiance because the Deepkin Wizard has none of the keywords permitted by the Living City list.

The fact that the wizard was brought in to your force via a WSB with the Sylvaneth allegiance doesn't make any difference as Free Cities don't allow for 'allies' the way a normal keyword faction does - it's an absolute keyword list.

My firestorm box came tonight and there is a section regarding battalions:

Spoiler

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by makeshifts

[Double Misfire]

@makeshifts

It's an awesome box isn't it?  

The text on the two pages titled "Choosing Your Allegiance" in the Firestorm book  (barring the box on Season of War: Firestorm City & Warlord Armies) is directly lifted from the General's Handbook 2017 (picture behind the spoiler below) and while is hasn't been confirmed in an faq, I'd make a reasonable assumption has superseded by the page on allegiance in the new Core Rules - which describes out of faction units in battalions as allies that don't count towards the normal limits (one in four units, and a set amount of points in matched play games).

Spoiler

 

I've emailed the faq team about allies in Free City allegiance armies as it really isn't 100% clear under the new core rules if you can take factions not listed as belonging to the Free City allegiance you're using. No idea if/when they'll get back but I'm happy to play it safe and stick to @BaldoBeardo's RAW interpretation until then.

[makeshifts]

@Double Misfire

It's an absolutely great box, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

I definitely agree that unless a direct statment is given to the contrary by the faq team @BaldoBeardo has the right end of the stick.

Although having the option of more duardin in my Living City through IronBark doesn't sound like a bad thing.

Edited July 2, 2018 by makeshifts

[Zhorphorus]

Quick question, if I'm running mixed order and have a named character, am I right in saying I can't use hammer hall?

[Arkhanist]

Aye, no named characters allowed in a free cities allegiance from memory.

[Guest]

So after much thought I've decided that I will be modifying my plans for my Anvilgard army as I build from 1000 pts to 2000 pts. My original plan was to lean heavily into shooting, with almost everything in the army having some kind of ranged attack. Now that shooting is less reliable than it was (and there are more ways to counter it) I think I'm going to play Anvilgard as Sigmar intended and lean heavily into the Implacable March special rule instead.

Just to remind you guys:

In the Anvilgard army's hero phase, roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1" of a unit from the army. On a roll of 5 or more, the enemy unit must make a 6" move (it cannot run). After this move is completed, any enemy models (except Monsters) from that unit that are within 3" of an Anvilgard model are also slain.

My master plan (which will almost certainly not survive contact with the enemy) is to surround and hem in my opponent so that his models have nowhere to run and stand a reasonable chance of being removed from play. Or at the very least I hope to push people off objectives. I'm thinking the best way to achieve this is as follows:

1. Massed cheap infantry like Flagellants, Black Ark Corsairs and Dreadspears bearing down on the enemy from the front, giving my opponent nowhere to advance to. These guys will be locked into a a war of attrition where I don't necessarily expect them to kill many models - their job is just to block the enemy and force them back.
2. Scourgerunner Chariots - cheap units with a large base footprint to harass the flanks and maximise the number of enemy models that are forced to make a 'retreat' move for being within 1". Also there to stop the enemy from going around my infantry wall.
3. Aetherwings - cheap flying units to fly behind the enemy, quickly surrounding them to prevent them from making the maximum 6" move, increasing the likelihood that they'll be within 1" of an Anvilgard model and will have to be removed from play. Maybe some Prosecutors for more hitting power?

That's the core of the strategy - an army mostly made up of chaff, because the Anvilgard ability works better with more bodies, and the actual strength/utility of the units in question is irrelevant. I'll also include a Sorceress for access to Endless Spells and some form of decent shooting to thin out the blocked-in units from a distance - either Irondrakes or a Lord Ordinator with a Celestar Ballista.

Disadvantages:

• No battalions means only one artifact and lots of drops. I'll never get to choose who takes the first turn (but I can plan for that maybe?).
• There's almost nothing hard-hitting in there, so if the plan doesn't work then my opponents can just whittle my army away at their leisure.
• Less effective if my opponent's units can fly out of the killing zone, or escape in some other fashion.
• The rule doesn't work on monsters, so monster-heavy lists are maybe a hard counter to this. Don't see what I could do against them except possibly push them off objectives.

What do you think? Good strategy or terrible? Issues with putting all of my eggs in one strategic basket?

Edited July 3, 2018 by Guest

[Double Misfire]

@Jamie the Jasper

Very cool concept, I think there are two ways to maximised on Anvilgard's Implacable March and Aetherwings whipping behind enemy units locked in a war of attrition with infantry blocks is definitely one of them (the other being the Ebondrake Warhost Thrall Warhost and Realm Reavers battalions allowing you to force the issue by charging in the hero phase). How many units of Aetherwings do you plan to take?  

The main thing I'd want to bear in mind writing a list like the one you've described is to think of Implacable March as more of a bonus than something to rely on, and a happy accident to maximise on when it goes off. Sure, build your list around it, but remember to bring some insurance for those games when you just can't roll a 5+ after four turns of being locked in combat. Cheap infantry and Scourgerunner Chariots are going to grind stuff down at a glacial pace and there'll be some games when you need to guarantee a particular unit camped on an objective is dead with room for your guys to replace it. The army needs teeth - something with high rend and/or mortal wounds fast or long ranged enough to troubleshoot where you need it. Fulminators or Longstrike Raptors would be my go to's.

Have you given much thought to your choice of (single) artefact? Obviously if you want to stay fluffy you're left with Aqshy's list of realm artefacts, not necessarily a bad thing - the Thermalrider cloak could give a cheap support character (like your lovely Excelsior Warpriest) double duty as an extra unit of Aetherwings.

 

Very excited to see how your games with an Anvilgard list go -while I've got no desire to collect one myself (painting likes: bright colours, painting dislikes: elves), they've got to have one of the coolest and tactically dynamic special rules in AoS, completely changing the flow of a game.

[syph0n]

I think with Anvilgard, I get the feeling speed is very important. 

I'm going for it on the back of an Order Serpentis view; 2 dragons with 14" move. Hydra is your anvil, and I'd take two now. Drakespawn Knights are reasonably quick (10" move). You can add Aetherwings for further "around the back" antics, but also think about the usage of Endless Spells. I'm not sure if there's one that can emulate a wall or table edge (Shackles maybe? Palisade?). Or, use the Cogs to improve movement. That requires a Sorceress and a big block or two of Shards/Spears. Alternatively, I'm thinking maybe a massive net of Corsairs (40 @ 260) with a Fleetmaster to have them re-roll hits. Potential also for Shadowblades - using the Dark Riders who are nippy with 14" moves. Trying to squeeze in Realm Reavers or Ebondrake Warhost I think is quite important. 

Main problem is the lack of number of allies to take. And of course, I look at these lists from a very aelf-centric way. I have some Stormcast but I just can't bring myself to have them work together ?

[stato]

59 minutes ago, syph0n said:

I think with Anvilgard, I get the feeling speed is very important. 

I'm going for it on the back of an Order Serpentis view; 2 dragons with 14" move. Hydra is your anvil, and I'd take two now. Drakespawn Knights are reasonably quick (10" move). You can add Aetherwings for further "around the back" antics, but also think about the usage of Endless Spells. I'm not sure if there's one that can emulate a wall or table edge (Shackles maybe? Palisade?). Or, use the Cogs to improve movement. That requires a Sorceress and a big block or two of Shards/Spears. Alternatively, I'm thinking maybe a massive net of Corsairs (40 @ 260) with a Fleetmaster to have them re-roll hits. Potential also for Shadowblades - using the Dark Riders who are nippy with 14" moves. Trying to squeeze in Realm Reavers or Ebondrake Warhost I think is quite important. 

Main problem is the lack of number of allies to take. And of course, I look at these lists from a very aelf-centric way. I have some Stormcast but I just can't bring myself to have them work together ?

Stormcast vanguard, either hunters (they had an FAQ change which may impact this choice) or palladors could be a good small contingent of Stormcast, or even prosecutors with their 3D6 charge capability.

[Guest]

On 7/4/2018 at 11:10 AM, Double Misfire said:

@Jamie the Jasper

How many units of Aetherwings do you plan to take?  

No specific plans as yet. My thoughts on this change daily! At this precise moment I've decided to work largely with what I've got sitting around unpainted in order to get up to 2000 points, so no aetherwings at all initially - I'll be relying on the 3 Prosecutors from the first starter set for 'around the back antics' as @syph0n put it! 

 

On 7/4/2018 at 11:10 AM, Double Misfire said:

The main thing I'd want to bear in mind writing a list like the one you've described is to think of Implacable March as more of a bonus than something to rely on, and a happy accident to maximise on when it goes off. Sure, build your list around it, but remember to bring some insurance for those games when you just can't roll a 5+ after four turns of being locked in combat. Cheap infantry and Scourgerunner Chariots are going to grind stuff down at a glacial pace and there'll be some games when you need to guarantee a particular unit camped on an objective is dead with room for your guys to replace it. The army needs teeth - something with high rend and/or mortal wounds fast or long ranged enough to troubleshoot where you need it. Fulminators or Longstrike Raptors would be my go to's.

I think you're absolutely right about this, and this is one of the areas where I'm struggling a bit. I really want to include a Lord Ordinator with at least one Celestar Ballista, so I'm hoping they can fulfill this role from afar. Neither Fulminators nor Longstrike Raptors strike me as particularly 'Anvilgardy', which is an issue that exists entirely within my own head, but there it is!

 

On 7/4/2018 at 11:10 AM, Double Misfire said:

Have you given much thought to your choice of (single) artefact? Obviously if you want to stay fluffy you're left with Aqshy's list of realm artefacts, not necessarily a bad thing - the Thermalrider cloak could give a cheap support character (like your lovely Excelsior Warpriest) double duty as an extra unit of Aetherwings.

Definitely going with Aqshy - it would be a lore-crime not to! All of the heroes in my current list are more or less utility heroes with low wounds, low speed and very little staying power. Even my general is just a Lord-Relictor. So I don't think giving any of them the ability to fly and harass the rear lines is going to help them stay alive and fulfill their roles. I'm thinking of giving the Relictor the Ruby Ring just to get some reliable mortal wound output in there.

 

On 7/4/2018 at 11:10 AM, Double Misfire said:

Very excited to see how your games with an Anvilgard list go -while I've got no desire to collect one myself (painting likes: bright colours, painting dislikes: elves), they've got to have one of the coolest and tactically dynamic special rules in AoS, completely changing the flow of a game.

Yeah, I normally have an aversion to black armour and elves too. But I fell in love with the Cthulhu-esque Anvilgard artwork and somehow that's managed to overpower my usual inclinations. Now I love 'em! 

 

2 hours ago, syph0n said:

I think with Anvilgard, I get the feeling speed is very important. 

I think that's true of every army to some extent in an objectives-based game to be honest. I don't think it's the only strategy that can work though. At least I hope it isn't, because aside from one chariot everything else in my army is slogging it on foot!

 

3 hours ago, syph0n said:

You can add Aetherwings for further "around the back" antics, but also think about the usage of Endless Spells. I'm not sure if there's one that can emulate a wall or table edge (Shackles maybe? Palisade?). Or, use the Cogs to improve movement. That requires a Sorceress and a big block or two of Shards/Spears.

It's like you read my mind with the endless spells. I think you really need to double down on controlling your opponent's movement with this Anvilgard strategy, so the palisade and shackles are exactly what I'm taking. I now also have a sorceress to summon them on, although how reliable she'll be remains to be seen. Having Darkshards/Bleakswords/Dreadspears to sacrifice to improve her casting would certainly be a big boost, and they'd be a good battleline choice too I think (lots of bodies), although I'm stuck with Liberators for now.

 

3 hours ago, syph0n said:

Alternatively, I'm thinking maybe a massive net of Corsairs (40 @ 260) with a Fleetmaster to have them re-roll hits. Potential also for Shadowblades - using the Dark Riders who are nippy with 14" moves. Trying to squeeze in Realm Reavers or Ebondrake Warhost I think is quite important.

I've almost finished painting up 10 Corsairs and I refuse to paint any more! So much time and effort required to clean and assemble so many fiddly bits. So many different colours/textures/materials to paint. And I really dislike their Michael Jackson 'Smooth Criminal' pose. I'm taking 40 flagellants instead. No battalions for me.