Daughters of Khaine Alliances

[Overread]

Much like the discussion on witches and sisters, I figure alliances is going to be a topic that raises its head a good few times for the Daughters and thus is another chat worthy of breaking off for easy reference. 

Daughters have access to a range of allies including. Stormcast Eternals, Idoneth Deepkin, Scourge Privateers, Shadowblades, Order Serpentis and  Darkling Covens. For reference that is basically all of the old Dark Elves army along with the two new order armies, Idoneth and Stormcast.

At the time of writing Darkling Covens, Scourge Privateers, Shadowblades and Order Serpentis don't have their own battletome and several are quite small in what they offer (Shadowblades only have assassin's and darkriders).

 

 

I've already read of some interested in using sorceress from the Darkling Covens for the wave of new Endless spells that Maligan Portens offers players in the new edition. 

[syph0n]

Can I point you to my thread, which looks at this from the alternate angle:

However, I think that allying in DoK works for those armies far better than it does for the Daughters of Khaine. What do DoK need from those armies? Aside from the Sorceress, maybe, the other factions offer limited choices point for point vs the Daughters. It's similar for the Idoneth too.

I think the Hydra is a possible, because it's going to 180 points and maybe the Kharibdyss at 160 with a Fleetmaster (200 total) whipping it to re-roll its hits. I think the argument would be - what could I take that's better than what I've got? Other option I guess would be the Drakespawn Knights. 140 points in the new GHB and are quite durable. Again, more durable for their points than 10 SoS?  Would they do more damage on a charge? Is their 10" worth it? 300 points for 40 Corsairs and a Fleetmaster to soak up some damage, re-rolling hits? 

Of the other potential allies, Stormcast obviously have some strong units, as do the Idoneth. I still think DoK manage fine on their own.

For me, I have a 1k DoK army sat ready for building. To make the 1250, I'd take a Hydra and some endless spells using my Doomfires. The only reason I see to do that (and not take 2x Khinerai or more Melusai) is to save me some ££!

 

[Overread]

Daughters are indeed well built internally so they might well not "need" many allied units; but I do think its worth considering the topic in general. Hero units can bring something new that isn't just hinging on the internal combos that Daughters already have; meanwhile different types of troops can change how the army behaves. 

Much of the daughters really wants to be on the offensive; fast and slicing into combat, so being able to bring in a block of tarpit troops to hold a position instead of charging madly forward might be of a great help in some senarios. I think the battle plan setups will make a big impact here on what becomes an attractive choice. 

As you say things like the Hydra are already interesting for giving them something heavier that wants to get stuck into a fight and stay there; rather than jump in and out. It's also fairly independent and thus if your opponent knocks something out the hydra still works; meanwhile many of the combos rely on mages or such; some manoeuvring or tactical attacks and those could be shut down, leaving Daughters in a weaker position. 

[DantePQ]

If any I would consider few things : 

- new SCE spellcaster Knight-Incantor with autuunbid is amazing - 3+ save, decent spell (but will be used to cast it or mystic shield anyway) but autounbid is great. Also spirit flasks could be useful 

- Ishlaen Guards from Deepkins (of course if their warscroll isn't changed) 280 points for 24 wounds with 4+ unrendable save is amazing to sit on some objective or tarpit enemy (when they have 3+) cast mystic shield on them and they would find a place in any army and DoK could surely use such unit. 

- Lord Aquilor + 3 Vanguard Palladors - now they fit into allies and they open some possibilites but surely 400 pts is a touch too much to fit them competitive wise. 

For sure I will playtest those 3 options ( Palladors only because I love models but maybe they will surprise me). 

[Overread]

@DantePQ same here with the Palladors, they are also pretty cheap on ebay when you get broken down kits from the starter/army pack they are in. I've got a trio and kind of hope I might convert two of them to be charging along with a cauldron, but if that proves really impossible I'd be happy to use them as allies.

 

Honestly Stormguard are getting some outstanding looking mounts; if it wasn't that I've too many armies and don't "really" like their heavy gold metal design I'd be all for Stormhost with their griffins, dragoncats, dragons, pegayenas etc..... I'm actually half hoping that DoK get a few new mounted units in time; either on their own fantasy monsters or ones I can convert. 

 

I'm also tempted to see if a group of gryphhounds would fit as allies. 

[VorpalPoolNoodle]

I'm currently considering a hydra. It looks like it's regeneration will either get it ignored as a target because it's so hard to hurt, in which case it will rampage at will, or it will be so scary that it'll soak attacks and then regenerate most of it. Either way, it's only 20 points more than the unit of blood stalkers I don't want to use now and probably much more combat effective.

Edit: Plus I have a lovely Reaper Bones Hydra that will only cost me a $5 base to use.

[Overread]

I think the Hydra certainly gives Daughters something more "tanky" than many of the other units; plus as you say its pretty independent and able to go it alone so its not as reliant on the internal synergies to give its best. That gives it a bonus if it ends up isolated or some key elements of your army get killed early. 

It's also not as big a point sink as say a dragon (mage or warlord) or Akhelian Leviadon. In fact you can just fit two hydra in a 2K list, which gives you a a lot more wounds split between the two and also more options to either pair them up or split them. I'd also wager they are decent to hold and contest objectives; whilst a lot of other daughter's units are much more shock-troops designed to strike hard and fast rather than hold the line. 

 

 

The Shadowblades also have the Assassin hero which I think its a nice option to consider. It's deployment keeps it safe and the fast mobility of a lot of daughter units means that it should see action fairly quick; esp if you focus on an enemy hero unit. Whilst it hasn't got rending, 6 attacks is no slouch and at 3+ on hit and wound that's a decent level of reliability; even more if its hero and that makes it 6d3 damage!

[swarmofseals]

I'm not a fan of either of the hydra versions even with the recent point drops. I just don't see the War Hydra as all that tanky. Most armies can kill a 12 wound 4+ save model in one or two turns without any real problem. For the hydra to become defensively efficient it needs to heal 2-3 times, which is unlikely to happen unless your opponent either plays poorly or is really unlucky (in which case you're probably winning anyway). On top of that it's actually terrible on offense. It's offensive efficiency is really low, and it's not like it has high rend either. So offensively it doesn't add anything new. The Kharibdyss is a bit less horrible on offensive efficiency but it's still nowhere near good, and it's defensive efficiency is poor and has no way of improving through healing. It also doesn't add anything new offensively.

I do like both types of Idoneth guard though. Ishalen Guard are undeniably good. Their defense is nothing special against rend 0, but against higher rend it's very solid. Their offensive efficiency isn't great but it isn't embarrassing either (twice as good as the Hydra and a bit better than Kharibdyss). Morrsarr Guard on the other hand can put out great offensive efficiency on the charge, can dish out mortal wounds once per game and actually feature high rend, which is something that DoK needs (unless you are running Morathi). Morrsarr Guard are still more offensively efficient in melee than the hydra even when they aren't charging! On top of that both units are really fast and fly. I tend to like Morrsarr Guard a bit more than Ishalen simply because they fill an area of need (high rend) while the strength of Ishalen (great against high rend) is something that DoK is already pretty good at.

[InSaint]

I can imagine 2 Sorceress with 10 Darkshards for just 300 points, sacrificing the poor Darkshards to pump out a Cog and subsequently other Predatory spells,

[Overread]

6 hours ago, InSaint said:

I can imagine 2 Sorceress with 10 Darkshards for just 300 points, sacrificing the poor Darkshards to pump out a Cog and subsequently other Predatory spells,

I think unless/until they give Daughters their own cheap caster this might become a fairly common addition. Otherwise our only Wizards are Morathi and the Bloodwrack which are both quite expensive (well Morathi is very expensive) and both of which also want to push forward to get into close combat as well.

Darkshards are not too expensive and as a ranged unit are happy to hang back with the mages whilst being sacrificed to give them a spellboost. It's also only 20 points more than taking two medusa so as long as you remember to sacrifice for the spell boost it should have more impact on the magic phase. Plus you can leave the darkshards out and just take sorceress for the additional wizard addition on their own and they should still function well. 

[syph0n]

22 hours ago, Overread said:

I think the Hydra certainly gives Daughters something more "tanky" than many of the other units; plus as you say its pretty independent and able to go it alone so its not as reliant on the internal synergies to give its best. That gives it a bonus if it ends up isolated or some key elements of your army get killed early. 

It's also not as big a point sink as say a dragon (mage or warlord) or Akhelian Leviadon. In fact you can just fit two hydra in a 2K list, which gives you a a lot more wounds split between the two and also more options to either pair them up or split them. I'd also wager they are decent to hold and contest objectives; whilst a lot of other daughter's units are much more shock-troops designed to strike hard and fast rather than hold the line. 

 

 

The Shadowblades also have the Assassin hero which I think its a nice option to consider. It's deployment keeps it safe and the fast mobility of a lot of daughter units means that it should see action fairly quick; esp if you focus on an enemy hero unit. Whilst it hasn't got rending, 6 attacks is no slouch and at 3+ on hit and wound that's a decent level of reliability; even more if its hero and that makes it 6d3 damage!

This came up in the Order Serpentis etc thread. The Assassin, armed with a decent realm artefact, could be a very cheap 80 point bomb provided you can get him to the hero needed and you're willing to lose that artefact when the Assassin inevitably pops. 

In the few games I've played, albeit only smaller 500-1000 practice games, the Hydra has been immense. It chewed through a Lord Celestant on a Dracoth through pure attrition and was only bested by a Black Dragon due a 6 on a D6 damage roll. Had it made its own combat phase, it might well have won the battle. It's a case of how the Hydra is used I guess. Holding units in place for a charge from a more damaging unit. 

8 hours ago, InSaint said:

I can imagine 2 Sorceress with 10 Darkshards for just 300 points, sacrificing the poor Darkshards to pump out a Cog and subsequently other Predatory spells,

 

1 hour ago, Overread said:

I think unless/until they give Daughters their own cheap caster this might become a fairly common addition. Otherwise our only Wizards are Morathi and the Bloodwrack which are both quite expensive (well Morathi is very expensive) and both of which also want to push forward to get into close combat as well.

Darkshards are not too expensive and as a ranged unit are happy to hang back with the mages whilst being sacrificed to give them a spellboost. It's also only 20 points more than taking two medusa so as long as you remember to sacrifice for the spell boost it should have more impact on the magic phase. Plus you can leave the darkshards out and just take sorceress for the additional wizard addition on their own and they should still function well. 

I've got a list I've been theoryhammering, again for my Order Serpentis army using this. What you need to remember is the ally restriction having small, cheaper allied units as you soon run out of the 1 in 4! 

[DantePQ]

I think Tidecaster is amazing secondary spellcaster for DoK as well as New SCE Knight-Incantor, spellcaster is slightly more expensive then Sorceress but spell got +2'' range and D3MW instead of 1 , and Knight-Incantor autounbid is worth it for a secondary mage to cast endless spell/mystic shield. Also both have better survivality then Sorceress. But I think those 3 are best option for different spellcaster. 

 

[InSaint]

21 hours ago, Overread said:

I think unless/until they give Daughters their own cheap caster this might become a fairly common addition. Otherwise our only Wizards are Morathi and the Bloodwrack which are both quite expensive (well Morathi is very expensive) and both of which also want to push forward to get into close combat as well.

Darkshards are not too expensive and as a ranged unit are happy to hang back with the mages whilst being sacrificed to give them a spellboost. It's also only 20 points more than taking two medusa so as long as you remember to sacrifice for the spell boost it should have more impact on the magic phase. Plus you can leave the darkshards out and just take sorceress for the additional wizard addition on their own and they should still function well. 

We have Doomfire Warlocks as well! Finally endless spells made them useful.

1. They are pretty cheap, in terms of real actual dollar.  A box of 5  Warlocks cost USD 35 while a box of 5 Melusai cost USD 50.
2. They are fast 14" and can benefit from DoK buffs, 5++!
3. They can shoot pretty ok.
4. They can cast Doomfire and Lore of Shadows.
5. After casting Chronomantic Cogs in Turn 1, they can just proceed to cast Doomfire. From turn 2 onward, they can toggle the Cog to +2" move + charge to allow DoK units to enter melee assuming opponent did not manage to dispel it

[Ravenborn]

If I take a DE Sorceress ally, can she use Lore of Shadows? I assume the answer is “no”, but I’m still learning the rules.

 

[Overread]

Page 243 of the main rule book states that  a wizard may only know spells from the faction or grand alliance that they are part of (ergo its tied to the keywords the unit has). So they can't share spells between factions. The Sorceress would thus know spells from the Darkling Covens, which I would assume are detailed in the Generals Handbook 2018 (I assume I can't confirm that as I don't have the GHB). 

 

The only way she could have the spells from the Daughters of Khaine would be if she has the DoK keyword assigned to her during setup (I'm unsure if or how this can be done since I can't find specific general details on it in either book - if anyone has a reference for that it would be of great help)

[Ravenborn]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

The only way she could have the spells from the Daughters of Khaine would be if she has the DoK keyword assigned to her during setup (I'm unsure if or how this can be done since I can't find specific general details on it in either book - if anyone has a reference for that it would be of great help)

Thanks!

...and your quote is the reason why I’m only 99% certain the answer is “no”. I read the note in the book about assigning the keyword, but have absolutely no idea how that can happen, or even if it can happen.

[Overread]

The only reference I can find to it is that some units have abilities that let them change/assign new keywords to their profile (the example I found related to a chaos unit). So its out there, its just not normal. It's one of the bugbears at present in that GW has really streamlined the rules but in doing so also cut out a lot of specific interaction examples as well so that when one has a question sometimes the answer isn't quite where you expect it to be. 

Also far as I can tell Darkling Covens don't have access to any spells or a spell lore (leastways if they do no where online seems to mention it). So she's only got the spells on her warscroll profile. Not a bad set, but she's limited. You take her for the cheap dispel and her ability spells only. 

[Ravenborn]

Thanks for clarifying. I assume she’ll also be valuable for the persistent spells. I do have ten warlocks for good magic coverage though.

[Overread]

Yep, Endless Spells and realm specific spells are accessible to any wizard in your army so she can get access to them without any problem provided that they are part of the game as agreed with your opponent.