AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion

[sorokyl]

Thanks, not sure how I misread the ability so badly. Does anyone have the math on it, with and without kroak?

[Trajann Valoris]

Greetings! A friend has just started playing with Seraphon and we have some doubts:

1. Celestial Conjuration: The Slann Starmaster can perform 4 spells. Can you decide not to use any, and instead carry out 4 Celestial Conjurations, and get 4 x D3 Celestial Conjuration points? Or it's just once per phase?
    
2. Summoning: You can summon as many units as you can using the Celestial Conjuration or Cosmic Engine (Engine of the Gods) skill or is there a limit?

Thanks!

[Richelieu]

On 7/9/2018 at 12:15 PM, PJetski said:

Lens of Refraction is an insane hard counter to Kroak. It's very strong against any army with wizards that do 1 to D3mw spells (there are VERY few d6 mortal wound spells) so expect to see a lot of it in tournaments. It will be very easy for any army to bully Kroak out of the top tables.

4x Engine of the Gods is a problem that needs to be addressed. Summoning 80 skinks per turn with very little opportunity cost is not good for the game.

I disagree that Lens is a hard counter top Kroak.  It only shuts off one of his two powerful ways to win.  17+ summoning points per turn is a huge amount of free models/points.  

Don't get me wrong, I love lens and I think it is nearly an auto include for well rounded lists.  Niche lists that try to win through alpha strikes or some specific tactic will still probably take artifacts that augment their game plan rather than defend against their opponent's.

[kenshin620]

Anyone have any luck with Dread Saurians? Obviously quite expensive, especially given how many other behemoths you can fit in.

[sorokyl]

1 hour ago, Trajann Valoris said:

Greetings! A friend has just started playing with Seraphon and we have some doubts:

1. Celestial Conjuration: The Slann Starmaster can perform 4 spells. Can you decide not to use any, and instead carry out 4 Celestial Conjurations, and get 4 x D3 Celestial Conjuration points? Or it's just once per phase?
    
2. Summoning: You can summon as many units as you can using the Celestial Conjuration or Cosmic Engine (Engine of the Gods) skill or is there a limit?


Thanks!

Starmaster gets 3 spells a turn, Kroak gets 4.   Plus any additional from Cogs or Balewind Vortex. 

You can trade each of those spells for conjuration points. It's not d3 per spell, it's 3.  So a Kroak on a balewind vortex with cogs gets a max of 18 points per turn (on a turn in which he did not cast the endless spells), plus d3 per astrolith bearer and 1 for the slann being the general. 

[Darkfine]

21 minutes ago, sorokyl said:

Starmaster gets 3 spells a turn, Kroak gets 4.   Plus any additional from Cogs or Balewind Vortex. 

You can trade each of those spells for conjuration points. It's not d3 per spell, it's 3.  So a Kroak on a balewind vortex with cogs gets a max of 18 points per turn (on a turn in which he did not cast the endless spells), plus d3 per astrolith bearer and 1 for the slann being the general. 

Don’t think it is d3 “per” bearer rather if you have one or more then you get d3.

[sorokyl]

So I did some Engine of the Gods math. Could be wrong but here's what I got:

16.3% chance for an EoTG not near a Slan to get 14+
35.5% chance for an EotG near a Slann to get 14+
55.5% chance for an EoTG near a Kroak to get 14+ assuming Kroak uses up to 2 of his rerolls from his command ability (stack his command ability and you can do better)

To calculate the third, I looked at the outcomes in which the result was not 14 and computed the probability of rerolling 14+ by adding:
probability of being able to reroll 2  dice (50%) * (probability of the previous 2 highest dice + 2 rerolls being 14+) 
+probability of being able to reroll only 1  dice (27.5%) * (probability of the previous 2 highest dice + 1 rerolls being 14+) 

(I calculated this in excel row by row(1297 rows) but had formulas to drag down. Again it could be off)

So 4 EoTG around a Kroak you get an average of 1.62 summons per turn.

Without a Kroak you get an average of 1.42 summons per turn.  

Kroak gets an additional spell over a Starmaster, if you use that for conjuration points, then total Kroak nets you 0.45 more summons per turn than the Starmaster with 1 or more engine of the gods.  At ~120points per summon, thats 54 points per turn, would take 4 turns to be worth the points. if you are only considering how much he can summon (this does not factor in any artifacts the starmaster is using)

 

 

[sorokyl]

1 minute ago, Darkfine said:

Don’t think it is d3 “per” bearer rather if you have one or more then you get d3.

true. my bad. 

[Aginor]

11 hours ago, sorokyl said:

So I did some Engine of the Gods math. Could be wrong but here's what I got:

16.3% chance for an EoTG not near a Slan to get 14+
35.5% chance for an EotG near a Slann to get 14+
55.5% chance for an EoTG near a Kroak to get 14+ assuming Kroak uses up to 2 of his rerolls from his command ability (stack his command ability and you can do better)

To calculate the third, I looked at the outcomes in which the result was not 14 and computed the probability of rerolling 14+ by adding:
probability of being able to reroll 2  dice (50%) * (probability of the previous 2 highest dice + 2 rerolls being 14+) 
+probability of being able to reroll only 1  dice (27.5%) * (probability of the previous 2 highest dice + 1 rerolls being 14+) 

(I calculated this in excel row by row(1297 rows) but had formulas to drag down. Again it could be off)

So 4 EoTG around a Kroak you get an average of 1.62 summons per turn.

Without a Kroak you get an average of 1.42 summons per turn.  

Kroak gets an additional spell over a Starmaster, if you use that for conjuration points, then total Kroak nets you 0.45 more summons per turn than the Starmaster with 1 or more engine of the gods.  At ~120points per summon, thats 54 points per turn, would take 4 turns to be worth the points. if you are only considering how much he can summon (this does not factor in any artifacts the starmaster is using)

 

 

I admit I haven't checked your math but it is at least in the right order of magnitude. That's why people came up with 3xEotG lists pretty quickly after the rules were leaked, and the 6N tournament showed that it can work well with four.

[Dragobeth]

12 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Anyone have any luck with Dread Saurians? Obviously quite expensive, especially given how many other behemoths you can fit in.

I use it, I really like that giant lizard, and being able to summond it is very cool but my local metal is not competitive at all so take it with a grain of salt.

[Hulksmash]

Playing in a milder tournament tomorrow and don't want to scare everyone off so I limited my summoning to the basic level (slann & astrolith bearer). I'm going to run this;

Allegiance: Seraphon
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Slann Starmaster (260)
- General
- Trait: Great Rememberer 
- Artefact: Lens of Refraction 
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (240)
- War Spear
- Artefact: Blade of Symmetry 
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
Saurus Sunblood (120)
Skink Starpriest (80)

Battleline
40 x Saurus Warriors (360)
- Spears
40 x Saurus Warriors (360)
- Spears
10 x Saurus Warriors (100)
- Clubs

Units
4 x Razordons (160)

Battalions
Sunclaw Starhost (130)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 138

I went with razordons and the starpriest instead of my steggy because I can't just summon a 4-man unit of razordons and the priest adds an extra dispel, a cool spell, and a neat staff. And I can probably get steggy on turn 2 so there is that. Obviously this isn't geared to turbo but thoughts?

[Nahualpiltzintli]

On 6/30/2018 at 7:57 PM, Blueraven84 said:

Personally I'm waiting for Lost Kingdom Miniatures "lizardmen" models, they are going to do kickstarter in couple days...

I'm waiting for them too

I've seen the kickstarter and the miniatures they offer are awesome. Their cold ones are just amazing.

They just unlocked the salamander and it's one of my favourites, so, already pledged... Now i only hope they get to unlock the quetzalcoatl

Sure i can't play that but it's an awesome mini ?

For those who have not seen it yet, here you have the link to go to their facebook page. They are posting images, updates, and it has a linck to their kickstarter campaing if you want to go for it. And you can share that post to unlock another stretch goal ?

https://www.facebook.com/LostKingdomMiniatures/posts/1850575075249086

[Ragnar Alpaca]

Quick question that I don’t think deserves a topic by itself, what should I arm my skinks with?

[rokapoke]

42 minutes ago, Ragnar Alpaca said:

Quick question that I don’t think deserves a topic by itself, what should I arm my skinks with?

In my experience, if you're running a unit of 10, it's your choice. Javelins are easier to use, but their shorter range is limiting.

If you're looking to max out a unit of 40, use the boltspitters. The +2 to hit for the big unit makes an amazing difference, and you'll get work done.

Either way, give them bucklers. It's still a 6+ save, but now you get to ignore rend -1. If your skinks get into close combat, you'll want to retreat more often than strike, so the clubs aren't particularly useful.

Again, these are just my opinions -- I don't purport to have any amazing tactical insight, but this is what I've determined from my experience.

[Crispen]

Has anyone tested the fangs of sotek battalion? How did you go if you have?

Been thinking about taking it to a tournament in August and wanted to hear how other people have been faring with it.

Thanks!

[chord]

I picked up the Start Collecting, what is the next thing to get, another start collecting or a bastiladon?  

[Darkfine]

15 hours ago, chord said:

I picked up the Start Collecting, what is the next thing to get, another start collecting or a bastiladon?  

Skinks, stegadon, the flying guys, start collecting, Slann, vortex, bastiladon would probably be my buy order.

Im enjoying tossing Trogladons around but have not had much use for the Carnos yet.  Mind you I’ve only got access to two and am playing around 1k points at the moment so take my Carno opinion with a grain of salt.

Would absolutely get a bucket full of skinks however!

[chord]

7 hours ago, Darkfine said:

Skinks, stegadon, the flying guys, start collecting, Slann, vortex, bastiladon would probably be my buy order.

Im enjoying tossing Trogladons around but have not had much use for the Carnos yet.  Mind you I’ve only got access to two and am playing around 1k points at the moment so take my Carno opinion with a grain of salt.

Would absolutely get a bucket full of skinks however!

Ah,....what if you dont like skinks (like me)?  

[Darkfine]

18 minutes ago, chord said:

Ah,....what if you dont like skinks (like me)?  

In that case I’d go with a start collecting! Obviously your mileage will vary here but I’ve always disliked random attack stat lines so am not a big fan of bastiladons. 

[kenshin620]

28 minutes ago, chord said:

Ah,....what if you dont like skinks (like me)?  

Saurus are still pretty decent line infantry. Depending on which flavor you like, could make a Sunclaw host or an Eternal host. Or I guess a Firelance host if you can stomach the Cold One riders (or heavily convert the elf ones)

[spenson]

Has anyone tried a heavy magic list for this edition ?

I was thinking about using something like this.

Please note that the list doesn't include the artifacts and commandf trait yet as I haven't really looked into them for the new edition. Hysh can be useful to counter the lens of refraction and has some very good spells/artifacts.

Allegiance: Seraphon
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Lord Kroak (450)
Slann Starmaster (260)
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
Skink Starpriest (80)

Battleline
10 x Saurus Warriors (100)
- Spears
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers

Behemoths
Bastiladon (280)
Troglodon (160)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Umbral Spellportal (60)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 107

The goal is to get +2 to cast spells and use the slann or starpriest to summon the portal+cogs.

The extra command point can give us some rerolls with kroak's ability.

I'm planning to use this list tomorrow for a "casual game" against someone I know well (we sometimes test some cheesy stuff).

PS : I know the clubs are better when you play less than 20 saurus warriors but we play WYSIWYG.

Edited July 20, 2018 by spenson

[Darkfine]

Has anyone played around with skimping on battleline to front load summoning potential?

Something like,

Slann

Starpriest

Engine of the Gods

10 Skinks x2

3x Razordons /w handlers 

Trogladon

Clocking in at 1000 points, our current league level.

The game plan here is to pin down soft targets with a teleporting Trog, shove Razordons at blobs, use the skinks to run interference on anything looking to jump the Slann and summoning as much as possible.

Our next level is 1250 where I would add  an Astrolith Bearer and more Battleline, probably Knights.

 

[Stevie754]

[Sedraxis]

2 hours ago, Stevie754 said:

More like the Scroll of Salt

[Dragobeth]

And... tha's why I started playing without Kroaknado, we all could see that FaQ coming.

Are Guard and Knights worth it in MSU?