AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, kenshin620 said:

So has anyone actually had any game time with Seraphon summoning?

I played against a sunclaw starhost on Saturday.  It ended up being a harsh lesson for the Seraphon player on bubble wrapping his Slann.  

We played the malign sorcery matched play scenario where you get points for casting spells, dispelling or unbinding endless spells or killing an enemy wizard next to an objective.  It was fun.  I had a knight incantor and Lord arcanum on gryph charger for my wizards.  

Turn one my opponent teleported a skink startpriest into position to blast my LCoD and LAoGC with a purple sun and get a VP... But he failed the cast and failed his teleport on his Slann to get into position.  It was a risky gamble on his part, but neither of us was really playing an optimized list and the scenario and realm rules were new to both of us, so fun was the name of this game.

I got both my wizards on the objectives, castled up, and started cranking out the VPs.  My opponent split his forces, leaving a small corridor to his Slann. I drove up the middle with my prosecutors and dropped a unit of retributors on top of the Slann.  Game over.  

Summoning didn't do a whole lot this game since he could only get so many units within range of my guys on the objectives.  Hyish has a really fun command ability that kept my knight Incantor alive for a couple extra turns.  Heroes can use a CP to drain wounds from nearby friendly units.  

Yesterday, however, I watched a Seraphon player from my club make really good use of a never ending steam of skinks to run around the board claiming objectives while his thunderquake tanked most of his opponent's stormcast army.  At one point there were 4 fulminators, a celestant prime, some sequitors and a pair of geminids all trying to get through the double bastiladon bottleneck.  Those dirty skinks just charged into combat and then retreated up the board onto the stormcast's objectives.  It's a catch 22 for a seraphon opponent: kill the skinks only for them to be resummoned, or leave them alone while they hunt objectives.

 

[Jamopower]

On 7/3/2018 at 4:11 AM, swarmofseals said:

 

EDIT: So is 4x Engine of the Gods going to pretty much be an automatic thing now?

At least in the 6 Nations lists there were a lot of Engines (and ripperdactyls) and almost all teams had Seraphons. So I guess that's somewhat telling of the initial perceived power of the army and its units. 220 points sure is a bargain for the Engine. At least one of them should be found in every Lizzie-list.

 

I have been looking at something along the lines of this for my autumn painting project. I have all of the models needed (all saurus are old metal) and a lot of painted skinks with squares waiting for motivation to do something for them:

Slann

Scar Veteran on Carnosaur

Engine of Gods

40 Saurus with spears

2x5 or 1x10 Saurus guard

10 Skinks

3 Kroxigor

Total: 1500 points

Should be fun to play and able to handle everything, but at the same time won't be too powerful to keep the game fun for both players. The idea is to summon the skinks, salamanders and such and have the heavier stuff on the table from the beginning. Previously I have wanted to have bit more punch when I have been playing with seraphon and the saurus should give plenty of that.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Jamopower

[jkav86]

I have a game arranged for next week, it'll be my first of the new edition and I'm going in a little blind, my generals hand book wont arrive till after the game! so for summoning I'm just filling a spare case with saurus and skinks and seeing what happens for that  As for the list...

Allegiance: Seraphon
Slann Starmaster (260)
- General
- Trait: Vast Intellect
Engine of the Gods (220)
- Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (260)
- Artefact: Blade of Realities
5 x Saurus Knights (90)
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (90)
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (90)
- Lances
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters & Moonstone Clubs
1 x Salamanders (40)
3 x Skink Handlers (40)
Bastiladon (280)
Bastiladon (280)
Thunderquake Starhost (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1

I think it should be fun, I like a lot of monsters and, while I know knights are probably not optimal, I do like them. So any thoughts or suggestions?

[Darkfine]

So, not a lot of Seraphon players in these parts?

[Jamopower]

6 hours ago, Darkfine said:

So, not a lot of Seraphon players in these parts?

I guess it will change with the new Edition...

[kenshin620]

I am pretty surprised how much wiggle room of points you have if you went "full meme mode" with summoning seraphon. 1 slann, 1 astrolith, 4 engine of the gods still leaves 700pts at 2k.

[Toast]

So I've decided to start playing AoS from the ashes of my old lizardmen army (with full repaint to reflect their newly found heavenly daemonic origins), but know very little about what works in the seraphon army...

I plan to start with 1000pts so me and my mates can learn the game and our new armies and I definitely want an engine and a bastiladon. 

Can anyone offer any tips on what else I should include?

Cheers

[Richelieu]

10 minutes ago, Toast said:

So I've decided to start playing AoS from the ashes of my old lizardmen army (with full repaint to reflect their newly found heavenly daemonic origins), but know very little about what works in the seraphon army...

I plan to start with 1000pts so me and my mates can learn the game and our new armies and I definitely want an engine and a bastiladon. 

Can anyone offer any tips on what else I should include?

Cheers

Welcome back! Seraphon just got incredibly strong in the version update last Saturday, so your timing is impeccable.  

Five things will get you started and you can expand from there basically any way you see fit.  

Slann, Engine of the gods, astrolith bearer, some saurus warriors and some skinks. Summoning is central to Seraphon in the current edition and those five units will form the core of your summoning engine. 

From there a bastiladon and skink starpriest are great choices, or you could get the Start Collecting Seraphon box for a Carnosaur, some warriors and some knights (most people find the knights underwhelming).  

[Richelieu]

39 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

I am pretty surprised how much wiggle room of points you have if you went "full meme mode" with summoning seraphon. 1 slann, 1 astrolith, 4 engine of the gods still leaves 700pts at 2k.

That's not even full meme.  Swap the slann for a Kroak and add in a balewind and cogs for 9 more summoning points per turn.  

[epokh]

Quote

Allegiance: Seraphon
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Lord Kroak (450)
Slann Starmaster (260)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Might
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Skink Starseer (200)
Skink Starpriest (80)
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
Engine of the Gods (220)
30 x Skinks (180)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)
Prismatic Palisade (30)
Umbral Spellportal (60)

Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 92
 

I played the above list against a Clan Skryre list and it was kind of silly how much damage Kroak can put out now with some setup.

• Astrolith plants flag
• Kroak uses command ability to generate insights
• Starseer attempts to generate insights
• Slann adjusted the constellation for +1 to cast
• Kroak summons a Balewind Vortex
• Starpriest summons Spell Portal
• Starseer summons Cogs, Slann touches Cogs
• Kroak launches Celestial Deliverance x 3 with a ton of bonus range (+8" from flag, +6" from vortex, +6" casting result 10+) through the portal (ridiculous in the realm of Shadows) + a Comet's Call
• Slann generates 12 Conjuration Points (+1 for Slann General, +1d3 for Astrolith) or casts spells as needed

In my first hero phase Kroak alone took out:

1. 2x units of Acolytes
2. 2x Warp Lightning Cannon (and a third cannon left at 1 wound)
3. Arch-Warlock
4. Warlock
5. 10x Clan rats from a 40 block
6. 3x Mortar Teams

I also dropped 20 Skinks from the Engine of the Gods and called up 10 more Skinks using Conjuration Points at the end of the movement phase. We called the game after that.

The reliability of magic with the buffs we can stack is great. With Astrolith, constellation, and Arcane terrain you get +3 to cast which makes getting the bonus range from 10+ pretty easy to get. Having insights coming from Kroak's command ability (which can then refund CP on 5+ from the Aetherquartz Brooch on the Slann and then do it again and again) and the Starseer is great. The insights really make casting reliable as well as making it easier to get the range or wounds needed from Celestial Deliverance or number of targets from Comet's Call.

Engine of the Gods near a Slann is rolling 4d6 with potential insights for rerolls as well as Curse of Fates to modify a die. Not guaranteed to get what you want, but pretty damn reliable.

From turn 2 onwards Kroak is casting 5 spells and the Slann is conjuring 4 as long as he keeps touching the cogs. If you need more offensive spells, let Kroak touch the cogs and he's on 6 spells from a Vortex through a Portal. Geminids and Palisade are in the list for debuffing and board control - Palisade is also just great for hiding your magical frog fortress.

The only army I see really being an issue is Fyreslayers maybe because they're quick and can have a very strong save vs. mortal wounds. However, if the characters die they lose their buffs and Celestial Deliverance + Comet's Call  are great for removing every hero at once. They kill the first Skink wall, you make another and keep blasting. Also, Spellmirror and Lens of Refraction would be fairly strong as well but again just aim to snipe the characters carrying the problematic items (use those insights!).

[Jamopower]

I'm 100% sure the Seraphon won't make it 'til next GHB without some errata to tone them down. Good example of their current brokoness is the six nations tournament, where Kroak had done 106 mortal wounds in a single hero phase. Doesn't sound fun for anyone. 

[epokh]

8 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

I'm 100% sure the Seraphon won't make it 'til next GHB without some errata to tone them down. Good example of their current brokoness is the six nations tournament, where Kroak had done 106 mortal wounds in a single hero phase. Doesn't sound fun for anyone. 

Yup, this my sentiment as well. Fun as hell to hurricane everything off of the table but not so much fun to be on the receiving end.

[Jamopower]

I can imagine that the fun starts to disappear for the Kroak user as well after a while. Especially so if the available opponents start to disappear

It's amazing how they have not done anything for the points of Seraphon in the new book when everyone sees straight away that they became much better. Maybe they didn't focus for the old factions too much. 

[epokh]

18 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

I can imagine that the fun starts to disappear for the Kroak user as well after a while. Especially so if the available opponents start to disappear

It's amazing how they have not done anything for the points of Seraphon in the new book when everyone sees straight away that they became much better. Maybe they didn't focus for the old factions too much. 

Oh yeah, for sure. I played the one game on Saturday with a Broaknado and then went home and grabbed my Ironjawz for the next game.

[Seraphage]

Guys you seem to be overly sure about our strength - I definitely think we are stronger than ever but isn't a bit too early to say we're broken ?

Was there enough time yet to play against all armies in a competitive level at all of the scenarios ?

The past few years - if it wasn't for the Kroaknado list *that is one single list out of our army which is one of the biggest ! - we would have hardly seen our army in the top 50 of tournaments besides some few exceptions ?

 

Anyway things definitely look better than ever ! *and things that never got to see the table the past 2.5 years will finally get their chance ! ?

[Jamopower]

Don't know if the army is completely broken, but getting a lot of good stuff on top of an already very good army for free will surely matter. 

I think it's quite good indication that something is wrong when there is a tweet from a Seraphon player after the first major tournament wishing for a nerf for his own army... 

[kenshin620]

I think that you can have a much fairer army if you went more face smash seraphon (rather than sit in the back and vomit out more skinks) and resisted the temptation to bring God Engines.

 

This could have all been avoided if they just stayed Mortal!?

Anyways speaking of which, does anyoen have any comparison size and quality pictures of the Privateer Press boardgame Widower's Wood Gator minis next to Kroxigors? They look like they might be an ok stand in but I hear hit or miss stuff about PP's plastic minis.

Edited July 9, 2018 by kenshin620

[Aex]

Quote

done 106 mortal wounds in a single hero phase.

We all do know... that was beyond any average...

I've played Nurgle in a Tournament in April. 17 Save Rolls against my opponent. I successfuly rolled 14 Throws on a 5+.  

He said disgustingly resilent is completely broken. 

And next time, not a single disgustingly succeed.

You know what?

No one will talk about the second one... 

Disgustingly resilent is broken! 

 

It's easy to mock about 106 mortal wounds. This was gainst Chaos Daemons, right?  Yeah, thats possible. But still far beyond average. 

[Jamopower]

106 mortals is actually the average if you get to roll three times d6 wounds against ten units. Not that likely,  but not that unlikely either. The biggest problem is that the targets are destroyed before the full salvo. I would believe that getting more than 50 MW against chaos should be very common with the range buffs. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Jamopower

[Drofnum]

17 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

106 mortals is actually the average if you get to roll three times d6 wounds against ten units. Not that likely,  but not that unlikely either. The biggest problem is that the targets are destroyed before the full salvo. I would believe that getting more than 50 MW against chaos should be very common with the range buffs. 

Even against non-chaos you are averaging ~45 wounds if you can hit 10 units.  105 wounds is ludicrous but 45 is still enough to cripple an army first turn.  Anyone saying its not broken just hasnt used it or played against it imo.

 

Edit:  For reference my KO army has 121 wounds, my Idoneth 105 and the Seraphon list I tested this with was at 110, I believe. You're losing 1/3-1/2 your army in a single magic phase, to one model.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Drofnum

[Toast]

As a new Seraphon player all this talk of high powered magic is making me feel l picked the right side!

I will use this power responsibly. I promise...

[Jamopower]

I would say that even 20 mw reliably from a single unit on a single phase is too much, as one wound is on average about 20 points. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Jamopower

[Droxyl]

I played 4 games so far with summoning using Slann, Banner and 1 EoG. I think with this setup the summoning is balanced and fun against other good armies. Granted summoning does make my army a hell of a lot better then last edition but we needed something. The problems are with Kroak, Endless spells and multiple Engines. My fear is that with so many people abusing the system that they will knock us back down hard.  I don't play Kroak so not sure how to fix him but for the others an easy fix would be make Engine of the Gods unique and make it so the Slann/Kroak cannot convert the bonus spells from endless spells or any other means into summoning points. 

[Ebrick]

I've played the new "brokenato" a couple time.  Thankfully I always take the "lens of refraction" in every list I make. If one artifact can shut down a third of their army it's not broken

[Drofnum]

21 minutes ago, Ebrick said:

I've played the new "brokenato" a couple time.  Thankfully I always take the "lens of refraction" in every list I make. If one artifact can shut down a third of their army it's not broken

If you have to take a specific artifact just to counter a single list then it is broken.  Sure its no big deal if you are doing it down at a club, but going to an event and having to have every army take that one artifact just to counter one list is 100% broken.