PJetski Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Mikosan said: Yeah, thats what I was getting at. I guess I just don't get why they changed it, I doubt it was tearing up anyones meta, just a useful, cool ability that worked well in a Dracoth heavy list. Oh well, new edition-new army build, now what should take the place of those 440 points that just got freed up in my list? It was poorly worded. First off, the intent was obviously that you had to direct all your attacks towards the unit to give it -1 hit, but the way it was worded allowed you to split your fire but still give a unit -1 hit. Second, it wasn't clear if the ability stayed active even if the Tempestors were killed, which led to weird interactions. Why is their focused fire reducing my hit rolls even after I killed them? Third, it didn't even require rolling to hit. You just had to direct your attacks at the unit. Fourth, it promoted using Tempestors as a debuff skirmishing unit rather than one that engages the enemy, which is what Dracoths should be doing. Maybe this last one is just my own opinion, but when I see demi-dragons I don't think they should be held back from melee combat. This new ability is a lot simpler to understand, with no loopholes, and promotes the Tempestors to get into melee so enemies can't easily escape the aura range. Edited July 10, 2018 by PJetski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikosan Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 minute ago, PJetski said: It was poorly worded. First off, the intent was obviously that you had to direct all your attacks towards the unit to give it -1 hit, but the way it was worded allowed you to split your fire but still give a unit -1 hit. Second, it wasn't clear if the ability stayed active even if the Tempestors were killed. Third, it didn't even require rolling to hit. You just had to direct your attacks at the unit. Fourth, it promoted using Tempestors as a debuff skirmishing unit rather than one that engages the enemy, which is what Dracoths should be doing. Maybe this last one is just my own opinion, but when I see demi-dragons I don't think they should be held back from melee combat. This new ability is a lot simpler to understand, with no loopholes, and promotes the Tempestors to get into melee so enemies can't easily escape the aura range. One-I always thought it was pretty clear, all shots had to be targeted at the same unit. Two- it said how long it lasted, whether the tempestors were alive or not after was irrelevant. Three-yeah it was nice , four-I still engaged the enemy, the dracoths were still doing possible D6 dmg and the old breath weapon was the bees knees while in combat so I always wanted them there! Now you will most likely eat a screen of chaff in front while the shooting unit pulls out of the aura range. If the new ability was a 12" bubble that made friendly units -1 to hit I would agree completely with your last statement. Sorry for being a negative nancy over here, I really do love the new book and a lot of the new stuff like scions allegiance, the spell lores and stormhosts , all the new models are fantastic. Just not thrilled about some of the warscroll changes, tempestors were my fav unit in the old book and as a slow painter, replacing my 4 tempestors before Nova at the end of August is going to be a scramble. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martijn de Bruin Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I'm confused right now in regards to Command Abilities. Am I allowed to use Gavriel's CA with a different hero as long as Gavriel is alive? If yes, what if he is held in reserve, can we use his CA then? Or.. are CA only usable by the hero who has it unless otherwise stated? I can't seem to find the answer within the Core Rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Mikosan said: Sorry for being a negative nancy over here, I really do love the new book and a lot of the new stuff like scions allegiance, the spell lores and stormhosts , all the new models are fantastic. Just not thrilled about some of the warscroll changes, tempestors were my fav unit in the old book and as a slow painter, replacing my 4 tempestors before Nova at the end of August is going to be a scramble. I was just trying to find some reasons for the change, that's all. For what it's worth, it's very easy to swap the arms on Dracothian Guard. I magnetized mine so I could swap them from Tempestors to Concussors or Fulminators. 1 minute ago, Martijn de Bruin said: I'm confused right now in regards to Command Abilities. Am I allowed to use Gavriel's CA with a different hero as long as Gavriel is alive? If yes, what if he is held in reserve, can we use his CA then? Or.. are CA only usable by the hero who has it unless otherwise stated? I can't seem to find the answer within the Core Rules. Any hero can use their Command Ability. You can't use an ability if you are not on the table (unless the ability says otherwise) The core rules are pretty clear about this stuff, it's under the Hero Phase section on page 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5kaven5lave Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Any thoughts on this for a list chaps? Arcanum on Tauralon Incantor Relictor? 10x Seq 10x Seq 5x Jud 5x Jud 5x Evo 5x Evo 3x Castigators Dais Arcanum (for Incantor) Everpick Comet 2k on the schnozz. Going for wizardry with some shoots and littler units for Scions and objective holding. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Re: Retributors. Been using a unit of 5 for a year because that’s what came in the starter box . They earn their points back for me maybe 1 game in 20. Imo they have been dead weight for ages. I’ve gotten better and better at using them, and I can fairly reliably get clean charges off with them these days with new Scions rule. Doesn’t change the base problem with the unit. For an elite assault unit that costs 220 points, they pale in comparison to every other army’s similar options at similar point costs. This isn’t a “combo” or a “play better” issue. They really suck at their job. Giving them a 3+ save or a higher chance to inflict mortal wounds, or increasing their rend on charges, would be a “good start.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martijn de Bruin Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, PJetski said: Any hero can use their Command Ability. You can't use an ability if you are not on the table (unless the ability says otherwise) The core rules are pretty clear about this stuff, it's under the Hero Phase section on page 3 Alright, thanks for clearing it up. Even after reading that page again, I still don't see an explicit statement that you cannot use a hero specific CA whilst in reserve though? Unless "hero in your army" means the army on the table.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mDaro Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 On 7/7/2018 at 9:56 AM, Mark Williams said: Played a game tonight with this list. Hammers of sigmar on board:: lord relictor, lord ordinator, 2x5 liberators, 2x5 judicators w crossbows off board: celestant on dracoth, neave blacktalon, celestant prime, 5 retributors, 3 raptors w hurricane crossbows Tabled a chaos army with Archeon & Tzeench allegiance. impressions: 1. much more control of striking from heavens 2. Crossbows much more dangerous 3. Bravery makes the army practically fearless 4. 5+ to bring libs back failed every time (not sure about this yet) 5. Celestant prime is much bigger threat and more reliable due to changing the charge result 6. I forgot to roll damage saves for new command trait. Have to relearn how to play this. 7. Lord ordinator bad for this list and I should replace him Questions: 1. Does the celestant prime get +4 attacks on turn 3, or just 2? Opponent questioned this but it seems the sam as before to me. 2. Do the raptors get to rapid fire when striking from the heavens? Not sure based on vague FAQ wording. 3. Can you use more than 1 command point trying to bring a unit of liberators back? Gut says you get one chance when the last one dies then they’re gone forever. I can't stop thinking the bows with 3/3 and -1 rend outweigh the extra attack......I haven't built my 10 yet. I keep seeing this but isn't that rend more important? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namelessone81 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer LEADERS Lord-Aquilor (200) - General - Command Trait : Deathly Aura - Artefact : Soulthief Lord-Exorcist (140) - Spell : Celestial Blades Knight-Incantor (140) - Spell : Celestial Blades Lord-Castellant (100) 15 x Vanguard-Hunters (360) -Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes 5 x Liberators (100) -Warhammers 5 x Liberators (100) -Warhammers 6 x Vanguard-Palladors (400) -Boltstorm Pistols and Starstrike Javelins 6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (360) ENDLESS SPELLS Everblaze Comet (100) TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 115 I will try this list because I really like the vanguard and I think that they have some potential now with the -1 to hit when they drop . what do you think ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielFM Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 26 minutes ago, Namelessone81 said: Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer LEADERS Lord-Aquilor (200) - General - Command Trait : Deathly Aura - Artefact : Soulthief Lord-Exorcist (140) - Spell : Celestial Blades Knight-Incantor (140) - Spell : Celestial Blades Lord-Castellant (100) 15 x Vanguard-Hunters (360) -Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes 5 x Liberators (100) -Warhammers 5 x Liberators (100) -Warhammers 6 x Vanguard-Palladors (400) -Boltstorm Pistols and Starstrike Javelins 6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (360) ENDLESS SPELLS Everblaze Comet (100) TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 115 I will try this list because I really like the vanguard and I think that they have some potential now with the -1 to hit when they drop . what do you think ? It's nice, I was just working on something similar (yet quite different, mine has LA on Tauralon and Soulstrike Brotherhood). I think the Lord Exorcist is strictly worse than another Incantor. I understand you may like the model, but he is deadweight. 15 Vanguard Hunters may be too many, they tend to be more of an annoyance/distraction/objective grabbers than a killy unit. One unit of 10 and one unit of 5 would save you the points of one of those Liberator units and allow you to upgrade the other to Judicators or spend the points elsewhere. Anvils CA will work wonders on Longstrikes, for sure! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sev Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Does anyone know where I can find the Warrior Brotherhood and Skyborne Slayers warscrolls pls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledha Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, DanielFM said: Just because you banked on already-weak units (that should have been buffed but sadly didn't) like Paladins you shouldn't give people such a sweeping bad opinion of the battletome. Someone asked my advice, i give it. I don't like the feel to be forced to spend hundred of euros in powercreeping units in a army that i already invested a lot in (i have each unit have least two time) if i want to not be condemned to the bottom of any tournament (the Meta is Paris is quite unforgiving, even friendly players have good armies and play very well) Edited July 10, 2018 by ledha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syph0n Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Hello all. Quick bit of advice needed to help me help my son. He liked the original box set models most, and he loved the shooty Reapers when we've played some games, so I've bought Vanguard Raptors and 2 Ballista. Converting a Lord Ordinator. But, need a bit of help finishing a 2k list: Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Tempest LordsLeadersLord-Ordinator (140)- General- Trait: Bonds of Noble Duty Lord-Relictor (100)- Prayer: TranslocationKnight-Incantor (140)- Spell: StormcallerLord-Celestant On Dracoth (220)- Lightning Hammer & Thundershield- Artefact: Patrician's Helm - Mount Trait: Keen-clawedBattleline5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & ShieldUnits3 x Prosecutors with Celestial Hammers (100)5 x Retributors (220)3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (180)War MachinesCelestar Ballista (100)Celestar Ballista (100)Total: 1500 / 2000Extra Command Points: 10Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 83 The last 500 points are all to play for. Obviously need Libs/Judicators. Had an idea to buy Steelhearts to make a final Liberator unit (big hammer to one existing unit, as a swap, Steelheart would be a Lib Prime with Great sword etc). Would be a cheap way to get another unit and add some "character" to starter set models and units. Tempest Lords seemed to fit the Ordinator/Ballista combo? Thinking of getting the magazine for a 2nd Incantor. Son also really likes the Endless Spells, particularly the comet That takes us to 340 of the 500 left. Ideas welcome. Not going to be world beating but he likes what he likes! Edit: other option, drop 2nd Incantor, bring in Evocators and a Knight Azyros to bolster the Prosecutors. Evocators are supposed to be quite solid? Edited July 10, 2018 by syph0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystycalchemy Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Martijn de Bruin said: Alright, thanks for clearing it up. Even after reading that page again, I still don't see an explicit statement that you cannot use a hero specific CA whilst in reserve though? Unless "hero in your army" means the army on the table.. So I think the specific wording of those command abilities mention to "choose a hero with this command ability." This meand (in the case of Gavriel) you have to choose a model in your army on the table that has the command ability "Once More, for Sigmar, Charge!" Printed on their warscroll. In other words, Gavriel. So no, Gavriel is the only person that can use his command ability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Orzhov Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Out of curiosity, who would still take sequitors if they were 140 for 5 instead of 120? Would that be reasonable or too expensive, thoughts? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwareTheLegend Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, Lord_Orzhov said: Out of curiosity, who would still take sequitors if they were 140 for 5 instead of 120? Would that be reasonable or too expensive, thoughts? They're still great at 140. I'd not change a thing in my potential lists beyond I'd drop my 3rd unit of 5 to Libs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystycalchemy Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Lord_Orzhov said: Out of curiosity, who would still take sequitors if they were 140 for 5 instead of 120? Would that be reasonable or too expensive, thoughts? 53 minutes ago, AwareTheLegend said: They're still great at 140. I'd not change a thing in my potential lists beyond I'd drop my 3rd unit of 5 to Libs Yeah, i'd probably run 1-2 squads instead of flat 3 every time over liberators Edited July 11, 2018 by mystycalchemy Triple quote! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 2 hours ago, ledha said: Someone asked my advice, i give it. I don't like the feel to be forced to spend hundred of euros in powercreeping units in a army that i already invested a lot in (i have each unit have least two time) if i want to not be condemned to the bottom of any tournament (the Meta is Paris is quite unforgiving, even friendly players have good armies and play very well) You're correct. This is just all a ploy by GW to get us to buy more. And it's ok for us to admit that. I dont understand why people can't deal with any criticisms of GW. I'm in the same boat , its not just paladins I feel your pain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 4 hours ago, mDaro said: I can't stop thinking the bows with 3/3 and -1 rend outweigh the extra attack......I haven't built my 10 yet. I keep seeing this but isn't that rend more important? The range is the most important feature to me. Being able to camp an objective and still hit targets 24" away is huge and essentially the only reason I take them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nine7six Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 anyone know why one of the new spell lores says evocators can't take but the other one doesn't even though their warscroll says they dont know any other spells? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freejack02 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Lord_Orzhov said: Out of curiosity, who would still take sequitors if they were 140 for 5 instead of 120? Would that be reasonable or too expensive, thoughts? Assuming they get the horde discount - I'm still running 20 blocks all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledha Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 5 hours ago, Lord_Orzhov said: Out of curiosity, who would still take sequitors if they were 140 for 5 instead of 120? Would that be reasonable or too expensive, thoughts? It would be a harder choice. Right now, they are 20% more expensive but 25% more resilent (rerolls save) and do twice the damage (3 great weapon vs 1 and better hit/wound Roll) than the liberators Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaehaerys Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 13 hours ago, PJetski said: I don't disagree that Evocators look pretty sweet right now, but the discussion is about Paladins objective strength and not their relative strength to other units in the battletome. I am stating that Paladins are objectively better in the new battletome than they were in the last one - I am open to further debate about that, though I feel that I have made a strong case already. Paladin vs Evocator is an entirely different discussion. Decimators and Protectors have an interesting niche that can't be filled by other units. Evocators are really interesting and fill multiple niches as a WIZARD SACROSANCT with access to varied buffs spells, they fit in some good battalions, they have a slight defensive boost against Shooting, and some light mortal wound output in combat. Retributor vs Evocator could merely be a points issue. Since it's too late to give Retributors an new ability to give them some unique utility, I would like to see Rets drop down to 200 (or maybe even 180?) and Evocators go up to 220 to help with the internal army balance. Light mortal wound output? You my friend have not been on the receiving end of 16 mortals on top of normal attacks from those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielFM Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 6 hours ago, Lord_Orzhov said: Out of curiosity, who would still take sequitors if they were 140 for 5 instead of 120? Would that be reasonable or too expensive, thoughts? I wouldn't. They are good, but not 140 points good. I would grudginly return to the boring, unimpressive but cheap Liberators. I see our battlelines as cheap filler and not our workhorses, so that also bias my opinion. Spending so many points on batteline instead of elite units feels wrong to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 8 hours ago, mDaro said: I can't stop thinking the bows with 3/3 and -1 rend outweigh the extra attack......I haven't built my 10 yet. I keep seeing this but isn't that rend more important? Honestly I just enjoy them because they are different. I’m still waiting on an official faq that says it’s ok to drop them from the heavens and rapid fire. As it stands, dropping 10 juds and 3 raptors on most units takes the wind out of them. It’s pretty strong, but not overpowered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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