Jump to content

AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion


Chris Tomlin

Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

Overall I think more old units got buffed than weakened.  Concussions (relatively because of the fulmi shooting nerf), most of vanguard, knight azyros, knight vexillor, lord veritant, knight heraldor, celestant prime, and more all got buffs.  Liberators, fulminators, Lord relictor, Lord celestant on foot...I think that's all that lost out.  Of the new units, only sequitors stand out as outright better than their forebears.  

I would add Tempestors to the list of units that lost out.  They were a relatively under rated unit that I always found a use for, now I just don't see the point.  Taking the breath attack was OK but losing the targeted -1 to hit against melee was just too much.  12" aura that only works against shooting...just why? 

How are Evocators not better than old paladins?  I still like protectors and they are arguably better in certain circumstances, but Evo's seem better than both Retris and Decimators at current points cost. 

Overall I think the book is fantastic in isolation, in the context of new NH though..... it really feels like they were pulling back on the reins for stormcast(spells that require a casting roll then another dice roll to do one mw comes to mind) while at the same time letting loose on the NH. 

Still can't wait to get games in.  Also waiting for better players than me to figure out some stealth combos that I can shamelessly steal :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, chord said:

Not everything GW does is great, and not everything they do is terrible.  

Weakening older units to sell new units is fine, it's a business.  But is also disappointing to those who supported the line previously. 

Strengthing units that didn't get much play is great as well (Vanguard, CP, etc) 

I see what ppl are saying but I'm not sure there's a balanced and agreed consensus on whats good and not yet. Not so early.

My view: books good. SC gonna win things.

Also, the paladin nerf, are we talking the starsoul mace change? What is the net change there damage wise? It can be more with a 6.

Otherwise pallys are buffed by Scions change and charge manipulation.

Big loss is the hammerstrike battalion change?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Sureheart is strictly better, since +3 is worth much more than reroll. However, command points have a significant opportunity cost.

You can use Surehearts ability multiple times. If you use it 3 times for +9" charge you have a guaranteed charge out of Scions.

...assuming your army has the HAMMERS OF SIGMAR keyword :P

Sureheart has a smaller range, Command points (as you said) are a valuable resource, not everyone wants to be Hammers, and the Vexillor comes with a really good redeploy/nuke (vs having nothing to contribute to the game besides his CA and shield).

I'm in the Team Vexillor ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Mikosan said:

I would add Tempestors to the list of units that lost out.  They were a relatively under rated unit that I always found a use for, now I just don't see the point.  Taking the breath attack was OK but losing the targeted -1 to hit against melee was just too much.  12" aura that only works against shooting...just why? 

How are Evocators not better than old paladins?  I still like protectors and they are arguably better in certain circumstances, but Evo's seem better than both Retris and Decimators at current points cost. 

Tempestors can't reduce melee hit rolls any more, but now they reduce ALL missile weapons within 12", which is a strong effect. When you stack it with the Celestian Vortex you can give all enemy units -2 to hit with missile weapons... that's like giving your entire army a Mirrorshield!

It's worth noting that Decimators get 1 attack for each enemy model in range... it doesn't matter whether those models are in the unit you are attacking or not. Between that and reducing enemy bravery by 2 I can see people using Decimators in the new meta that seems to favour hordes of Witch Aelves, Idoneth Thralls, Chainrasps, Skeletons, etc.

Protectors have some unique utility in granting cover to nearby units, which is great for a deep strike shield maneuver. Cover on demand, when and where you want it? Sounds pretty good to me... especially since cover stacks with Staunch Defender.  Deploying Ballistas in the open behind Protectors to get cover is a neat trick. Protectors also deal their D6 damage on hit6 instead of wound6, which is a big deal - you'll see that effect activate much more often now.

Units like Protectors and Fulminators that get defensive bonuses against shooting attacks are really good at tying down shooting units (remember that you cant shoot out of melee any more!).

The real losers are Retributors and that's a tragedy because they are the iconic Stormcast unit in my eyes. I was hoping they would get a 3+ save this edition or at least a point cost reduction.


Despite saying all that, Paladins are objectively stronger with the new Scions and various other army changes like Gavriel, Vexillors, and the Hammers of Sigmar trait giving them a 6+ ignore on the even on the turn they charge. They also benefit massively from Cycle of the Storm stacking.

Edited by PJetski
  • Like 3
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Mikosan said:

I would add Tempestors to the list of units that lost out.  They were a relatively under rated unit that I always found a use for, now I just don't see the point.  Taking the breath attack was OK but losing the targeted -1 to hit against melee was just too much.  12" aura that only works against shooting...just why? 

How are Evocators not better than old paladins?  I still like protectors and they are arguably better in certain circumstances, but Evo's seem better than both Retris and Decimators at current points cost. 

Overall I think the book is fantastic in isolation, in the context of new NH though..... it really feels like they were pulling back on the reins for stormcast(spells that require a casting roll then another dice roll to do one mw comes to mind) while at the same time letting loose on the NH. 

Still can't wait to get games in.  Also waiting for better players than me to figure out some stealth combos that I can shamelessly steal :)

Tempestors are a lateral step for me. They are better at 12 (crossbows+Breath), close combat was never their place, and they can disrupt more than 1 shooting unit at a time.

5 minutes ago, Turragor said:

I see what ppl are saying but I'm not sure there's a balanced and agreed consensus on whats good and not yet. Not so early.

My view: books good. SC gonna win things.

Also, the paladin nerf, are we talking the starsoul mace change? What is the net change there damage wise? It can be more with a 6.

Otherwise pallys are buffed by Scions change and charge manipulation.

Big loss is the hammerstrike battalion change?

Around 1,8 mortals VS 2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Tempestors can't reduce melee hit rolls any more, but now they reduce ALL missile weapons within 12", which is a strong effect. When you stack it with the Celestian Vortex you can give all enemy units -2 to hit with missile weapons... that's like giving your entire army a Mirrorshield!

It's worth noting that Decimators get 1 attack for each enemy model in range... it doesn't matter whether those models are in the unit you are attacking or not. Between that and reducing enemy bravery by 2 I can see people using Decimators in the new meta that seems to favour hordes of Witch Aelves, Idoneth Thralls, Chainrasps, Skeletons, etc.

Protectors have some unique utility in granting cover to nearby units, which is great for a deep strike shield maneuver. Cover on demand, when and where you want it? Sounds pretty good to me... especially since cover stacks with Staunch Defender.  Deploying Ballistas in the open behind Protectors to get cover is a neat trick. Protectors also deal their D6 damage on hit6 instead of wound6, which is a big deal - you'll see that effect activate much more often now.

Units like Protectors and Fulminators that get defensive bonuses against shooting attacks are really good at tying down shooting units (remember that you cant shoot out of melee any more!).

The real losers are Retributors and that's a tragedy because they are the iconic Stormcast unit in my eyes. I was hoping they would get a 3+ save this edition or at least a point cost reduction.

As I run out of reactions, quoted for the truth!

Plus congratulations on the Protectors+Ballista combo, it's a really cool hidden gem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, DanielFM said:

As I run out of reactions, quoted for the truth!

Plus congratulations on the Protectors+Ballista combo, it's a really cool hidden gem.

It reminds me of the Protoss in Starcraft, calling down Photon Cannons and warping in units to protect them ?

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Mikosan said:

I would add Tempestors to the list of units that lost out.  They were a relatively under rated unit that I always found a use for, now I just don't see the point.  Taking the breath attack was OK but losing the targeted -1 to hit against melee was just too much.  12" aura that only works against shooting...just why? 

How are Evocators not better than old paladins?  I still like protectors and they are arguably better in certain circumstances, but Evo's seem better than both Retris and Decimators at current points cost. 

Overall I think the book is fantastic in isolation, in the context of new NH though..... it really feels like they were pulling back on the reins for stormcast(spells that require a casting roll then another dice roll to do one mw comes to mind) while at the same time letting loose on the NH. 

Still can't wait to get games in.  Also waiting for better players than me to figure out some stealth combos that I can shamelessly steal :)

I am 5/5 with storm cast in v2 and that's using more old unless than new and includes 3 games against seraphon (2 against kroaknado).  We've got the tools to compete with anything.  Hammers of sigmar are great fun.  I've wanted to play with Vandus ever since he was released and now he's actually really good.  

Leaving out Evocators as superior to paladins was an oversight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

38 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Tempestors can't reduce melee hit rolls any more, but now they reduce ALL missile weapons within 12", which is a strong effect. When you stack it with the Celestian Vortex you can give all enemy units -2 to hit with missile weapons... that's like giving your entire army a Mirrorshield!

 


 

I didn't think that is how the rule works though.  I read it as you have to be within 12" of the enemy unit that is shooting, which means that a unit 13" away suffers no penalty.  It reads to me like a passive debuff to enemy units not a passive buff to your own.  I would love to be wrong though. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think saying a unit got buffed because of some combination is a buff at all.

Saying paladins got improved because you can use X, Y and Z with them is not paladins being improved.   That is not a unit being improved, its synergies between specific units being improved.

It's ok, you can still be a GW fan and a Stormcast fan and not agree with everything they did.   

 

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, chord said:

I don't think saying a unit got buffed because of some combination is a buff at all.

Saying paladins got improved because you can use X, Y and Z with them is not paladins being improved.   That is not a unit being improved, its synergies between specific units being improved.

I can't agree with this. There are ways to improve units without directly increasing their power in a vacuum.

Decimators and Protectors are unarguably better than they were before, and all kinds of Paladins are overall better than they were before because they have better support options. Reliable Scions, more reliable charging options, better defensive support options, stackable command abilities...

AOS is not a game where two units deploy at opposite ends of the table and race to fight each other in the middle. Unit/army synergy is extremely important.

A buff is a buff, even if it's not direct.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a harder claim to justify though.  Because if you're claiming outside factors when determining if a unit was buffed or not, they you also have to apply the same factors to the competing units.

If you assert that Decimators are improved by factors X Y Z, then you also need to show that they are helped MORE than Evocators are by X Y Z, if you are claiming it for a buff.  Otherwise it's not a buff.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

At's a harder claim to justify though.  Because if you're claiming outside factors when determining if a unit was buffed or not, they you also have to apply the same factors to the competing units.

If you assert that Decimators are improved by factors X Y Z, then you also need to show that they are helped MORE than Evocators are by X Y Z, if you are claiming it for a buff.  Otherwise it's not a buff.

I don't disagree that Evocators look pretty sweet right now, but the discussion is about Paladins objective strength and not their relative strength to other units in the battletome. I am stating that Paladins are objectively better in the new battletome than they were in the last one - I am open to further debate about that, though I feel that I have made a strong case already.

Paladin vs Evocator is an entirely different discussion. Decimators and Protectors have an interesting niche that can't be filled by other units. Evocators are really interesting and fill multiple niches as a WIZARD SACROSANCT with access to varied buffs spells, they fit in some good battalions, they have a slight defensive boost against Shooting, and some light mortal wound output in combat. 

Retributor vs Evocator could merely be a points issue. Since it's too late to give Retributors an new ability to give them some unique utility, I would like to see Rets drop down to 200 (or maybe even 180?) and Evocators go up to 220 to help with the internal army balance. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, PJetski said:

 I am stating that Paladins are objectively better in the new battletome than they were in the last one - I am open to further debate about that, though I feel that I have made a strong case already.

But you haven't , you're saying that they are better because other things have improved (scions,etc).

Others (myself) are saying the paladins warscrolls (retributors mostly) is worse now than previously

Two different topics.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess the disconnect is that Paladins are better units than before (which is debatable but can be argued) but a worse choice for your army (because other stuff is even more better, which I suppose you can argue about as well).  The former might be technically true while being effectively irrelevant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going to have to lean towards PJetski,

Paladins in all forms are better in the new battletome, regardless if the warscroll was changed or not, You take a unit based on how it works with the rest of the army and other elements of the army, (Spells, units, heroes, abilities). I think it would be hard pressed for anyone to argue that the new tome hurts paladins more than it benefits them (Bar the fact you now have a choice of evocators or paladin units)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the paladins being invalidated by evocators. I was thinking the mounted evocators only have a 4+ save as appears to the dracoth cav that has a 3+. Now looking at the paladins not only do the models clearly have thicker armour but they also have one less movement then all the other SC infantry, could giving them a 3+ save make them more viable? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, chord said:

But you haven't , you're saying that they are better because other things have improved (scions,etc).

Others (myself) are saying the paladins warscrolls (retributors mostly) is worse now than previously

Two different topics.  

The paladin warscroll isn't played in a vacuum though, it's played within the context of a boatload of other rules, so it's not terribly valuable to thinking about it in isolation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Mikosan said:

I didn't think that is how the rule works though.  I read it as you have to be within 12" of the enemy unit that is shooting, which means that a unit 13" away suffers no penalty.  It reads to me like a passive debuff to enemy units not a passive buff to your own.  I would love to be wrong though. 

You are correct, they now debuff all enemy missile attacks within 12" (regardless of where the target of those attacks are). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

You are correct, they now debuff all enemy missile attacks within 12" (regardless of where the target of those attacks are). 

The only issue being that it's quite difficult to keep enemies in that bubble. If you Scions next to them, they only have to move 3" away to leave the debuff. Getting the charge off is another matter, but now with locking they're only going to shoot the relatively durable Tempestors anyways. It's not so much a strong defensive tool as it is a bother for the opponent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Requizen said:

The only issue being that it's quite difficult to keep enemies in that bubble. If you Scions next to them, they only have to move 3" away to leave the debuff. Getting the charge off is another matter, but now with locking they're only going to shoot the relatively durable Tempestors anyways. It's not so much a strong defensive tool as it is a bother for the opponent.

Yeah, thats what I was getting at.   I guess I just don't get why they changed it, I doubt  it was tearing up anyones meta, just a useful, cool ability that worked well in a Dracoth heavy list.  Oh well, new edition-new army build, now what should take the place of those 440 points that just got freed up in my list?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Mikosan said:

Yeah, thats what I was getting at.   I guess I just don't get why they changed it, I doubt  it was tearing up anyones meta, just a useful, cool ability that worked well in a Dracoth heavy list.  Oh well, new edition-new army build, now what should take the place of those 440 points that just got freed up in my list?

My though exactly ;) 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...