AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[mmimzie]

*depression*

Lol oh well i guess maybe that means ican still make excuses for bringing the turtle in my army. 

[Hoseman]

What a bad thing! So ghb comes with 5 units with incorrect points? Really bad work Gw

[Yoshiya]

So my proposed army goes up by 140pts... Great, time for a complete rethink. Good thing I didnt have the money to buy it all at once ><

 

Edit: thinking on it more this is way more than a simple blunder from a new players perspective. If you were told that the ghb had the points you need and had no knowledge of errata (common for new players I think) you could very easily plan and buy an illegal army. Most players will be leniant in that situation but if they ever decide to play more seriously it could really come back to bite them. Not a great introduction to the game.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Yoshiya

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, Yoshiya said:

So my proposed army goes up by 140pts... Great, time for a complete rethink. Good thing I didnt have the money to buy it all at once ><

 

Edit: thinking on it more this is way more than a simple blunder from a new players perspective. If you were told that the ghb had the points you need and had no knowledge of errata (common for new players I think) you could very easily plan and buy an illegal army. Most players will be leniant in that situation but if they ever decide to play more seriously it could really come back to bite them. Not a great introduction to the game.

I mean I dont even think gw would argue it's a pretty bad mistake. That said mistakes do happen. So you make the best of a bad deal. 

[Keggers]

To be fair, all of us were reacting to leaked information that wasn't 100% solidified. 

If we were beyond release date of 2.0 and this happened, I'd be more flustered. 

Oh well, I was really excited for Morrsar price decrease =\

[SirPug]

Do any people think there might be point in having allopexes now that they benefit from cover? Or simply to hold back objectives? With fuetan or dhom-hain they would get some bonuses on combat even if they are isolated.

[Icarion]

Why would the Allopex benefit from cover? It is a Monster with 8 wounds. 

[Stormy1486]

Yeah....this point clarification is a frustrating setback to my lists...like...really irriatating.

I mean its ok news for leviadon...except 380 is already asking too much in my mind...

This effectively ruins my thrall screen within my lists. Morsarr and ishlaen are still too valuable to not be the cornerstone of a compeditive list.

It does put more pressure on my aspect of the sea to perform well with it slightly higher and less units on the board...

My list has returned to eel spam sadly.

Volurtanos

Soulscyer

Tidecaster

Aspect of sea

12-15 morsarr (unit seperation to be determined)

6-9 ishlaen

2000 points

[Thalion]

I was really counting on the morsarr and AotS drops T.T

[Nico]

Yeah - had a horrific game against a Daughters of Khaine yesterday using these new points. I even took out the Mindrazor caster in turn one! 6 Morrsarr and 3 Ishlaen only took out 16 Sisters of Slaughter.

Not a fan of the coherency change - can easily lose models by accident. Absolutely detest the Inspiring Presence Change.

[DantePQ]

I don't really care by list is alive just had to scrap one endless spell that wasn't even necessary

[Carnelian]

Really glad that the Leviathan is back to is old points and now gets extra shooting attacks.

sad that it no longer benefits from it's own cover though!

to all those complaining, we all know that points can go up and down and they've released the FAQ before the actual release date of the General's Handbook so there is really nothing to be complaining about here

[Tizianolol]

Seems they wanna ruin this army.. Any know if morrsarr are battleline In an idoneth army?:)

[divineauthority]

46 minutes ago, Carnelian said:

Really glad that the Leviathan is back to is old points and now gets extra shooting attacks.

sad that it no longer benefits from it's own cover though!

It never did in 1st edition matched play, monsters couldn't benefit from cover.

[Sulfurious]

1 hour ago, Tizianolol said:

Seems they wanna ruin this army.. Any know if morrsarr are battleline In an idoneth army?:)

They're battleline if you take and Akhelian king as your general. 

[DantePQ]

Ok so another game with AoS2 with Deepkins my army (with all correct points value)

Ionarch

Tidecaster + General + Coral Ring + Abyssal Darkness + Emissary of Dark Places 

Tidecaster + Tide of Fear 

Spellweaver 

Endless Spell : Balewind Vortex, Aethervoid Pendulum 

Soulscryer

30 Thralls 

2x10 Reavers 

2x6 Ishlaen Guard

6 Morssar 

Played against Sylvaneth Gnarlroot but without Alarielle, it was a tough win for me , Aethervoid Pendulum was amazing against Sylvaneth and with 3rd turn Tide (as I elected not to Reverse Tides) it was easy to keep in check so it didn't harm me. 

Also it's my third game with that rooster and couple of points :

30 Thralls are really good, they are a threat can bunker on objectives (as with all debuffs you can easily do this) , also it's easy to use them as bait - as they look like easy target for some armies. Against Sylvaneth they were very good taking on 6 Scythe Hunters and killing them over 2-3 combat rounds. Also Tharlls are pretty amazing against W4 infantry - they were great against Kurnoths and Blightkings, Morssar charged into second hunter units and got stucked and after they didn't clear them first turn they were pretty useless. 

Reavers are good as well, they are mobile can fill some roles - chaff, screen, take objectives, also they are great hunting small heroes as they are deadly at close range against W5-6 heroes, so majority of opponents will have hard time taking care of Ishlaen Guard, Thralls and Morssar so Reavers have more room to operate. I really like them. 

 

[Austin]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

Ok so another game with AoS2 with Deepkins my army (with all correct points value)

Ionarch

Tidecaster + General + Coral Ring + Abyssal Darkness + Emissary of Dark Places 

Tidecaster + Tide of Fear 

Spellweaver 

Endless Spell : Balewind Vortex, Aethervoid Pendulum 

Soulscryer

30 Thralls 

2x10 Reavers 

2x6 Ishlaen Guard

6 Morssar 

Played against Sylvaneth Gnarlroot but without Alarielle, it was a tough win for me , Aethervoid Pendulum was amazing against Sylvaneth and with 3rd turn Tide (as I elected not to Reverse Tides) it was easy to keep in check so it didn't harm me. 

Also it's my third game with that rooster and couple of points :

30 Thralls are really good, they are a threat can bunker on objectives (as with all debuffs you can easily do this) , also it's easy to use them as bait - as they look like easy target for some armies. Against Sylvaneth they were very good taking on 6 Scythe Hunters and killing them over 2-3 combat rounds. Also Tharlls are pretty amazing against W4 infantry - they were great against Kurnoths and Blightkings, Morssar charged into second hunter units and got stucked and after they didn't clear them first turn they were pretty useless. 

Reavers are good as well, they are mobile can fill some roles - chaff, screen, take objectives, also they are great hunting small heroes as they are deadly at close range against W5-6 heroes, so majority of opponents will have hard time taking care of Ishlaen Guard, Thralls and Morssar so Reavers have more room to operate. I really like them. 

 

How was the Soulscryer? Mine has not done much of anything in game. I’m about to give up on the Royal Council battalion just because of his ineffectiveness. 

[Keggers]

Looking to run something like that, Dante, but I'm favoring a render over the scryer just to make that thrall block a little more scary. I haven't had too much success with the scryer but I may be using him incorrectly. 

[newsun]

Very glad I was leaving a buffer of points in case the leaks were incorrect. This is likely what I'll start with:

Volt

Seadolon

Scryr

Tidecaster

1x6 Ish

2x6 Morr

2x5 Heartrenders

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, Caladancid said:

How was the Soulscryer? Mine has not done much of anything in game. I’m about to give up on the Royal Council battalion just because of his ineffectiveness. 

Scryer is royal court or bust. I dont like trying to sneak him onto the table. The angles can be really bad or pointless. However royal court with morrsarr you just deploy the guy on the table and charge across the board. 

 

That said the cogs exist and can do similar

 

Cogs are 160pts (tidecaster and cogs. Can maybe be cheaper with allies) for +2 move and +2 to charge range. With morrsarr guard or ishlaen guard that's a 16" move meaning against stuff on the line that's a 8" charge for a net 6" charge with the cog bonus. Note that the cogs have to be cast making them vulnerable to both unwinding and just out right failing to cast. Another downside the margins on this are super narrow as your opponent need only deploy 2 or 3" back to make the charge fairly unlikely. The tidecaster also has to live to cast the cogs and might be vulnerable to being sniped by spells. 

 

Royal court is 240prs more than you'd normally take. It gives you the 1 CP you need to use the command ability which is +3" move, and you also get +" charge from the soul scryer (who has a range of 30+D6" on his point ability after his normal move + run).  That's a 17" move for a 7" charge  against targets on the line, or a net charge of  4" with the soul scryer bonus.  If compared to above that's 2" extra, but with royal court you could use the +3" move twice with your first turn command or.  Giving you at least a 7" charge on targets at least 30" a way from your starting line. You can further this turn q charge range by buying more cp which you might want to buff the king up anyway.  The biggest downside is that this all falls apart if the soul scryer is killed turn 1 (most likely by magic)  a second soul scryer  in ionrach let's you extend this range a tiny bit, but also can give you some job security on the command ability. 

 

Fuethan+tidecaster general gives you another alpha option with morrsarr and/or ishlean they can run and charge. With the new command ability this can be forced to 6. Giving you a charge range of 4" from your opponents line. Nother need to stay alive. Which is pretty good. However 1 cp only boost one unit.   Also you lose the power of the kings command ability on turn 3.  You also lose access to other enclaves. 

 

Edit note on my points costs: I excluded the tidecaster and king in the royal court math as  likely you are bringing these in your list already. If you aren't than covs are just better. The cog price does include the tidecaster as one of your wizards have to give up a spell slot to drop the cogs. As our army can use most of not all of their spell turn one via steed of tides and good spell choice this is abit of an opportunity cost for bringing covs. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by mmimzie

[DantePQ]

I think Soulscryer is great and does a little bit of everything : 

- ability to use him really makes your opponent rethink deployment whenever you are smart enough, usually with that many drops in no-battalion armies you can benefit from sole ability to force opponent to deploy in certain way 

- ability to charge first turn could be valuable but Deepkin Alpha strikes with Morssar are usually horrbile for one reason only - high level competitive  players will not allow it or shield crucial unit and Morssar when counter-charged  are really bad (they are much worse then other alpha strike hammers like Kurnoth Hunters for example)  BUT Tidecaster General ability help a lot as you can charge and then use High Tide turn two. Also most of alpha strikes suffer because of screen and Deepkin has no mechanics to take care of screen before charge.

- you can hold on for example 10 Reavers and Soulscryer as a objective takers - that's how I use him in many games, as you can go out of reverse and punish bad deployment of enemy or objectives that aren't guarded sufficiently, Reavers are perfect for that role,especially with some Tides (as you know during which Tide you want to deploy them) also it keeps opponent on their toes whole game and could give you some openings to exploit. 

- extra ritual boost - could be really important in certain situations.

 

[newsun]

I think there is more to the scryr than just the ambush.

 

First he lets you deploy 3-4 units off board, allowing you to react to opponents deployment in unique ways.

Next he increases charge success probability.

Lastly he's a priest for making rituals more likely.

Since the charge range buff is 24" he could be harassing another unit while the eels go after the juicy target.

There is no reason you need to start him off the board.

Edited June 28, 2018 by newsun

[Pompe]

This is what I am aiming at for a tournament that is running AoS2 later this summer. I expect some rather magic heavy armies, thus I chose Ionrach as my enclave and a spellweaver as an ally. Furthermore the reroll to hit is carried by the two kings so Dom-Hain seems a bit surpurflous.

Any and all feedback is welcome.

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach
Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280)
- General
Akhelian King (240)
- Artefact: Cloud of Midnight 
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- Lore of the Deeps: Steed of Tides
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- Lore of the Deeps: Pressure of the Deep
Spellweaver (80)
- Blows of Mystic Power
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 40 / 400
Wounds: 122
 

[Kugane]

5 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Scryer is royal court or bust. I dont like trying to sneak him onto the table. The angles can be really bad or pointless. However royal court with morrsarr you just deploy the guy on the table and charge across the board. 

 

That said the cogs exist and can do similar

 

Cogs are 160pts (tidecaster and cogs. Can maybe be cheaper with allies) for +2 move and +2 to charge range. With morrsarr guard or ishlaen guard that's a 16" move meaning against stuff on the line that's a 8" charge for a net 6" charge with the cog bonus. Note that the cogs have to be cast making them vulnerable to both unwinding and just out right failing to cast. Another downside the margins on this are super narrow as your opponent need only deploy 2 or 3" back to make the charge fairly unlikely. The tidecaster also has to live to cast the cogs and might be vulnerable to being sniped by spells.  

 

Royal court is 240prs more than you'd normally take. It gives you the 1 CP you need to use the command ability which is +3" move, and you also get +" charge from the soul scryer (who has a range of 30+D6" on his point ability after his normal move + run).  That's a 17" move for a 7" charge  against targets on the line, or a net charge of  4" with the soul scryer bonus.  If compared to above that's 2" extra, but with royal court you could use the +3" move twice with your first turn command or.  Giving you at least a 7" charge on targets at least 30" a way from your starting line. You can further this turn q charge range by buying more cp which you might want to buff the king up anyway.  The biggest downside is that this all falls apart if the soul scryer is killed turn 1 (most likely by magic)  a second soul scryer  in ionrach let's you extend this range a tiny bit, but also can give you some job security on the command ability. 

 

Fuethan+tidecaster general gives you another alpha option with morrsarr and/or ishlean they can run and charge. With the new command ability this can be forced to 6. Giving you a charge range of 4" from your opponents line. Nother need to stay alive. Which is pretty good. However 1 cp only boost one unit.   Also you lose the power of the kings command ability on turn 3.  You also lose access to other enclaves. 

 

Edit note on my points costs: I excluded the tidecaster and king in the royal court math as  likely you are bringing these in your list already. If you aren't than covs are just better. The cog price does include the tidecaster as one of your wizards have to give up a spell slot to drop the cogs. As our army can use most of not all of their spell turn one via steed of tides and good spell choice this is abit of an opportunity cost for bringing covs. 

Awesome summary! I personally am almost done building the army to start playing and run aspect of the sea and tidecaster and 1 big unit of 9 Morsarr, after all the unit costs of other stuff I run I have 280 points left to spend. Originally I was planning to get a soulscryer, royal court and some endless spells, but with the new errata that kind of got spoiled fast. Do you think endless spells are the better option in this case and just not take the soulscryer at all? Considering I'll likely have either the aspect or tidecaster alive to cast the spells.

[mmimzie]

28 minutes ago, Kugane said:

Awesome summary! I personally am almost done building the army to start playing and run aspect of the sea and tidecaster and 1 big unit of 9 Morsarr, after all the unit costs of other stuff I run I have 280 points left to spend. Originally I was planning to get a soulscryer, royal court and some endless spells, but with the new errata that kind of got spoiled fast. Do you think endless spells are the better option in this case and just not take the soulscryer at all? Considering I'll likely have either the aspect or tidecaster alive to cast the spells.

Well so maybe the cogs are countered quickly by an oppent deploying back 3" taking you outside of an average 7" charge range. The Fuethan has a nice base long range and a lower investment, but sorta sucks becuase it takes alot of your turn 3 thunder away.  Plus 1 cp onyl boost 1 unit ~3" depending on your run roll. 

I personally really like the royal court. It affects 3 units with +3 moves and  your whole army with +3" charge for 1 CP that it brings with it. If you Use your TP for the turn or more from what you buy you can make the charge and range longer.  Half tempted to run the 2nd soul scryer the 2nd 2-3" charge range bonus is good, that said it's really only a something like a 2" difference as you still ahve to be within 12".  You have those stronger rituals, and in match ups where you don't have to be affraid of your soul scryer getting sniped turn 1, you can deploy the 2nd one off the table to claim an objective later in the game.