Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Mune]

Are you sure the alpha on dreadwood is working?

There has been an faq on the free spirits, they are not able to teleport and the wording should be the same.

 

[Paul G]

The special move is a redeploy so yes!


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[Mune]

Well, thats just 1 unit.

For the three units you can move as if you are in your movement phase and this is the same as in the free spirits.

Free spirits = faq = no teleport.

[Nico]

That's not why it works. It works because her Ladyship had movement 16" so if you roll 2 abilities you put the 6/9 Kurnoths at 5" away and she Powerwaddles forward 16" before the game even begins. ?

[Nico]

Humour me before a minute, but could 30 Tree Revenants be a thing? They are only 420 (a 180 point reduction) - can do a reliable alpha strike out of a wood into the enemy's front line (can take both Damned and reroll the 1 Mystical beforehand) with a reroll one charge Dice.

You would need to form a long line of them, but with a 6" pile in damage should be decent.

They dent the enemy's front line and then most of them die, but probably hold the enemy for one turn.

Thoughts?

[Nico]

A potentially ace ally would be a couple of Waywatcher heroes  - these are basically 6 Judicator shots for 100 points (bs 7.5 for 160). He has an effective range of 28" so can start contributing from turn one. Also -1 to pew pew him. Exploding attacks on a 5+ if he stands still. ?? 

I feel that these could replace Bow Hunters who seem so unreliable for 220 points.

[scrubyandwells]

25 minutes ago, Nico said:

A potentially ace ally would be a couple of Waywatcher heroes  - these are basically 6 Judicator shots for 100 points (bs 7.5 for 160). He has an effective range of 28" so can start contributing from turn one. Also -1 to pew pew him. Exploding attacks on a 5+ if he stands still. ?? 

I feel that these could replace Bow Hunters who seem so unreliable for 220 points.

Yep got them in the latest list iterations posted earlier. Just debating whether to replace one w/ a Venator, which would also require swapping 10 Dryads for 5 TRevs. I like the idea of at least having the sniping threat, as well as the Venator's excellent mobility and save.

[Nico]

Do you like your opponent rolling 5+ saves against the Star Arrow? I'd favour the Longstrikes Raptors over the Venator.

[scrubyandwells]

3 minutes ago, Nico said:

Do you like your opponent rolling 5+ saves against the Star Arrow? I'd favour the Longstrikes Raptors over the Venator.

Yeah I'd be worried about things going awry at some point in the sequence. He's a threat, though, that a lot of builds would have to be concerned with; and the Star-Fated could be saved to focus-fire w/ other shots at the right time on one target. And I love his excellent movement, which could help in multiple situations. With that said, I'm not sure. He could feel like a constant disappointment without a Luckstone.

[scrubyandwells]

2 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Yeah I'd be worried about things going awry at some point in the sequence. He's a threat, though, that a lot of builds would have to be concerned with; and the Star-Fated could be saved to focus-fire w/ other shots at the right time on one target. And I love his excellent movement, which could help in multiple situations. With that said, I'm not sure. He could feel like a constant disappointment without a Luckstone.

Didn't have room points-wise for Longstrikes in the latest iteration.

[scrubyandwells]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Humour me before a minute, but could 30 Tree Revenants be a thing? They are only 420 (a 180 point reduction) - can do a reliable alpha strike out of a wood into the enemy's front line (can take both Damned and reroll the 1 Mystical beforehand) with a reroll one charge Dice.

You would need to form a long line of them, but with a 6" pile in damage should be decent.

They dent the enemy's front line and then most of them die, but probably hold the enemy for one turn.

Thoughts?

Not sure about 1x30 but could see the value in testing 3x10. Greater odds of getting some of those 9+ charge rolls off, greater board flexibility, more protection from battleshock, and two more Scions w/ Protector Glaives using RR to try to pop those 2-damage wounds.

[Nico]

Azyros can buff all shooting hit rolls even the derptastic cannonball from the Treelord Ancient. Lantern is fun vs Chaos too.

[vesco]

Does anyone of you tried to put out a listo for 1500 point ?

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

A potentially ace ally would be a couple of Waywatcher heroes  - these are basically 6 Judicator shots for 100 points (bs 7.5 for 160). He has an effective range of 28" so can start contributing from turn one. Also -1 to pew pew him. Exploding attacks on a 5+ if he stands still. ?? 

I feel that these could replace Bow Hunters who seem so unreliable for 220 points.

Yeah it's what I said a page ago. The limit on heroes prevents taking too much though. If 

Now loremaster isn't an option I'm taking these in my monstermash.

What do you think of a forest dragon in dreadwood. His move + charge will probably give him a first turn charge too and if you put him next to either alarielle or the hunters you can always hit first with everything on the strike.

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

Azyros can buff all shooting hit rolls even the derptastic cannonball from the Treelord Ancient. Lantern is fun vs Chaos too.

This one... He will be the prime candidate for ally in my wanderer list (is he much bigger than a regular stormcast winged guy (I've got the 3 from the starter) and does he look very different? (I will want to proxy first before I buy, tying a small bicycle light bulb around his wrist would fix the most important  attribute)

[Nico]

Forest Dragon is Compendium so I wouldn't bank on it.

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Forest Dragon is Compendium so I wouldn't bank on it.

He was a wanderer though... But I could see gw making a wood elf keyword to phase them out with the rest...

Sylvaneth got pretty screwed on allies all former HE can ally us but not other way around.

About your tons of tree revenants. They are still somewhat expensive for their damage output and you pay quite a lot for their abilities that will be less useful in big groups. On 80 points they are more effective in their niche roll as assassins but I think in a large unit that won't be the case.

[swarmofseals]

27 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

He was a wanderer though... But I could see gw making a wood elf keyword to phase them out with the rest...

Sylvaneth got pretty screwed on allies all former HE can ally us but not other way around.

About your tons of tree revenants. They are still somewhat expensive for their damage output and you pay quite a lot for their abilities that will be less useful in big groups. On 80 points they are more effective in their niche roll as assassins but I think in a large unit that won't be the case.

I tend to agree with this -- Tree Revs are OK in terms of damage efficiency but definitely not good. Defensively, however, they are extremely inefficient (really horrible). Throwing a big unit at your opponent is basically just serving up a big plate of easy points.

Speaking of compendiums, I wonder what will happen with Tree-Kin. At the new pointing they are awfully similar to dryads in terms of efficiency. Offensively they are a bit more efficient and defensively a bit less so. They could be a way to concentrate a bit more damage when fighting behind a line of dryads. If they go up by more than 20 points per 3 though I don't see much of a place for them.

[Mirage8112]

13 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

One issue with the list is the intended anti-alphastrike role of the Aetherwings. In order to use their Watchful Guardians ability, they need to be within 12" of a Vanguard Raptor unit at the start of the enemy's charge phase.

That's a good point. and it shows how unfamiliar I am with with units outside my regular rotation of armies lol. 

But truthfully, now that I look at the list, not only do the aetherwings not synergize, they're basically screens. Which means that the tree-revenants can pretty effectively do that job anyway, so I think cutting them would be a good idea.

Cutting the Aetherwings that frees up 60 pts and makes just enough room to squeeze in those extra 10 dryads. 

Allegiance: Order

Heroes
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Command Trait: [TBD] 
- Artefact: [TBD]
Branchwych (80)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages
Branchwych (80)
- Artefact: [TBD]
Battleline
30 x Dryads (270)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
- Sylvaneth Battleline

Units
9 x Endrinriggers (360)

Behemoths
Treelord (240)

Allies
10 x Vanguard-Hunters (280)

Battalions
Ironbark Wargrove (160)
Household (70)

Total: 2000/2000

 

13 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

And yeah not sure you'd need the second Branchwych. Seems like add. Dryads would be a better bet. I'd be tempted to add a unit of 10 rather than expanding the one to 30, in order to have another utility piece / fewer eggs in one basket. Maybe similar to how I haven't been a fan of 6 scythes for a long while, 30 Dryads seem like they'd have similar limitations, unless you're turning them into a deathstar a la Shield of Thorns, Mystic Shield, etc.

I'm inclined to leave the extra branchwytch only because it gives me an extra artifact caddy, and an extra hero for capturing objectives (in scenarios that require them). i'm actually tempted to make her a wraith rather than wtych, since the extra -1 to hit near a wildwood gives her that little extra bit of survivability, and it fairly easy to ensure you get a wyldwood within 3" of an objective. 

I still have no idea why anybody would want to run dryads in 10's unless they're required to take a certain number of dryad units (Winterleaf) and didn't have the points for a larger unit size. Everything Dryads can do in 10's T-rev's can do faster, cheaper and better. Furthermore, the five extra wounds don't count for very much, since anything that will wipe a unit of 5 T-Rev's will certainly wipe a group of 10 dryads (with battleshock), or leave their numbers so depleted they're virtually useless. 

With that in mind, I'm not sold on the value of 30 dryads either for all the reasons I mentioned in a  previous post. But then again having 30 bodies, makes a tough piece of meat to chew through, and once the squad is whittled down to 20 bodies, it should be fairly easy to get them into cover for the extra point of save. In fact, its sort of funny, as theya re whittled down from 30 to 20, the tougher the unit gets to shift. 30 bodies also provides a lot of area denial and might be useful for shutting down firing lanes against the Endrinriggers.
 

13 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Re: 9 Endrins, I'd be a little concerned about their capacity to survive long enough to pull their weight. Hard to know ATM how much alphastrike shooting we're going to see (alphastrike combat is easier to deal with of course via screens). They could often be back-boarded, though, and brought out at an opportune time, leveraging their high mobility

Well, if you do backboard them, they'll easily be 36" away from the enemies front line. There's not too terribly much in the game that has that kind of range, even hunters (unless they're deep striking). As I said above, in theory they have an easy threat range of ~24-26". and a 50% chance of having a threat range of 50" or so.

As far as durability go, Endrins have a natural 4+ and 2 wounds apiece. Granted it's not a 1+ or halving damage like a stornhorn, but it's certainly in the mid-range of survivability; Especially in cover with mystic shield. It's entirely possible to drop that free forest in your deployment zone and give them that extra point of cover if your concerned that your opponent might be eyeing them for a first turn strike. 

Plus there's the fact that if you enemy is dedicated to taking them out, he'll have to move up the board and expose himself to the sylvaneth who will be controlling the mid-board, not to mention creating a hole for the vanguard hunters to come in along the back board edge. 

Once he's trapped between the two forces He'll learn his lesson mighty quick about the dangers of exposing himself...

[scrubyandwells]

19 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Heroes
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Command Trait: [TBD] 
- Artefact: [TBD]
Branchwych (80)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages
Branchwych (80)
- Artefact: [TBD]
Battleline
30 x Dryads (270)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
- Sylvaneth Battleline

Units
9 x Endrinriggers (360)

Behemoths
Treelord (240)

Allies
10 x Vanguard-Hunters (280)

Battalions
Ironbark Wargrove (160)
Household (70)

Total: 2000/2000

Yeah that's a compelling list, looks stronger w/ those changes.

I've been able to make 2x10 Dryads work really well in GH16. Longer topic on why, but it may be the case they just won't work in GH17.

Good points re: value of 30 Dryads. In general, I suspect at least one block of 30 is going to be crucial for competing in all the Pitched Battles...just personally hoping that isn't the case, but it seems likely.  Re: the new rule of 20-or-more model units taking precedent for scoring in some of the scenarios -- that rule alone may mean a block of 30 Dryads is mandatory.

[Mirage8112]

15 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Re: the new rule of 20-or-more model units taking precedent for scoring in some of the scenarios -- that rule alone may mean a block of 30 Dryads is mandatory.

It was my understanding according to Warhammer community that there was only one scenario where hordes were required for capturing objectives (well, Hordes and Behemoths).  Do you have other information? 

[swarmofseals]

@Mirage8112 While I hear your concerns about 30 man dryad squads, I think they are somewhat unfounded. 30 Dryads don't bunker in cover well, but I see the 30 man squad's advantage is specifically being able to extend outside the Wyldwood and provide area denial. You make a good point that the enemy has a lot of frontage to engage and can avoid a buried Treelord, but I'm not sure that this is a problem. You can use the positioning of the Treelord to force your opponent to attack from a disadvantageous angle, and you can remove casualties in such a way as to allow the treelord to move into range for subsequent combat rounds. 30 Dryads should be tough enough to last for multiple rounds against all but the most concentrated offense, and if your opponent is dedicating that many resources to clearing your Dryads then you are likely going to be at a big tactical advantage elsewhere in the board due to the tremendous defensive efficiency of the Dryads. They really don't need the treelord stomp to be defensively efficient. They are ludicrously efficient with the stomp, but even without it they are very good.

Like you said, once they get whittled down a bit they can retreat into cover and then become that much more difficult to dislodge. 

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

I still have no idea why anybody would want to run dryads in 10's unless they're required to take a certain number of dryad units (Winterleaf) and didn't have the points for a larger unit size. Everything Dryads can do in 10's T-rev's can do faster, cheaper and better. Furthermore, the five extra wounds don't count for very much, since anything that will wipe a unit of 5 T-Rev's will certainly wipe a group of 10 dryads (with battleshock), or leave their numbers so depleted they're virtually useless. 

I think this is not true, I actually think it's completely the otherway around. I'll try to back this up with numbers.

-3 wounds on 5 revenants might mean they get whiped out in battleshock: not so for dryads, who might loose a guy more but will still be around.

-And even without battleshock they lost 60% of their already mediocre damage output while dryads loose much less. 

26 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

It was my understanding according to Warhammer community that there was only one scenario where hordes were required for capturing objectives (well, Hordes and Behemoths).  Do you have other information? 

If it's and/or then I think we'd better go for the behemoths.

 

23 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

@Mirage8112 While I hear your concerns about 30 man dryad squads, I think they are somewhat unfounded. 30 Dryads don't bunker in cover well, but I see the 30 man squad's advantage is specifically being able to extend outside the Wyldwood and provide area denial. You make a good point that the enemy has a lot of frontage to engage and can avoid a buried Treelord, but I'm not sure that this is a problem. You can use the positioning of the Treelord to force your opponent to attack from a disadvantageous angle, and you can remove casualties in such a way as to allow the treelord to move into range for subsequent combat rounds. 30 Dryads should be tough enough to last for multiple rounds against all but the most concentrated offense, and if your opponent is dedicating that many resources to clearing your Dryads then you are likely going to be at a big tactical advantage elsewhere in the board due to the tremendous defensive efficiency of the Dryads. They really don't need the treelord stomp to be defensively efficient. They are ludicrously efficient with the stomp, but even without it they are very good.

Like you said, once they get whittled down a bit they can retreat into cover and then become that much more difficult to dislodge. 

While you make a few points that are not without merit I do think that the clumsiness of 30 dryads will outweigh the benefits. The points reduction on hordes is thus valid.. but I'm not sure it's enough either. 30 dryads in one place also means they aren't in another place (which is obvious but I often like a few speedbumps here and there too). The bonus at 20 is enough to tempt me to get them and makes for a nice block to defend an objective in a forest.. I've noticed 10 get whiped out too easily and then sometimes opponent scores points before help is there, however 20 aren't killed that quickly and with the added save and wounds I usually can get help there the next turn. 30 would be a larger investment for that job too and I'm not sure it's needed. It's a bit of a feeling ofc. but 10 dryads have been doing very well as speedbumps (sometimes even remaining more than 1 turn if the opponent isn't that strong) and 20 have been doing very well as objective holders against almost anything that can sneak past the rest of the army.

44 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Yeah that's a compelling list, looks stronger w/ those changes.

The bonus you get from those battallions just don't seem to be worth the points... I mean sure those dwarves are nice to have but the rest of the bonusses just don't seem worth it. You can nearly get that unit of 30 dryads or a treelord for the points... 

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I tend to agree with this -- Tree Revs are OK in terms of damage efficiency but definitely not good. Defensively, however, they are extremely inefficient (really horrible). Throwing a big unit at your opponent is basically just serving up a big plate of easy points.

Speaking of compendiums, I wonder what will happen with Tree-Kin. At the new pointing they are awfully similar to dryads in terms of efficiency. Offensively they are a bit more efficient and defensively a bit less so. They could be a way to concentrate a bit more damage when fighting behind a line of dryads. If they go up by more than 20 points per 3 though I don't see much of a place for them.

With your calcs how do sword hunters compare to dryads?

[Paul G]

Pretty sure It was mentioned on the Bad Dice Daily that the 20 or more on ob. rule is in 2 of the battleplans.


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