Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, scrubyandwells said:

With that said, at the moment my sense is the only battalion of reasonablly-clear efficient value is Household (which of course requires a Treelord + 1 Branchwych + 1 unit of TRevs), from the POV of trying to build an all-comers competitive list; but as always we're dealing with very incomplete info right now. Household gives us 2 artefacts, eg Oaken Armour or Moonstone or Briarsheath for Ancient as general, and Acorn for a Branchwych. We also have 2 spells that have always stood out: Regrowth and Verdant Blessing, so those could go on those 2 heroes. There's real risk, though, you'll lose 1 or both vs someone going 1st that can hammer them one way or another. 

It is an option.. but for 70 points. .. well at least it's not a no brainer anymore to take so its not  cleary OP, however it might not be worth it at all.

I think in my list above going loremaster and bow hunters with the last 320 points is the save choice and that is why I'll try first. Regrowth on Alarielle and Verdant Blessing on the TLA. And probably moonstone and gnarled warrior on TLA. 

Loremaster only in gnarlroot? ******. 

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

With that said, at the moment my sense is the only battalion of reasonablly-clear efficient value is Household (which of course requires a Treelord + 1 Branchwych + 1 unit of TRevs), from the POV of trying to build an all-comers competitive list; but as always we're dealing with very incomplete info right now. Household gives us 2 artefacts, eg Oaken Armour or Moonstone or Briarsheath for Ancient as general, and Acorn for a Branchwych. We also have 2 spells that have always stood out: Regrowth and Verdant Blessing, so those could go on those 2 heroes. There's real risk, though, you'll lose 1 or both vs someone going 1st that can hammer them one way or another. 

A Wych can be hidden and a tla with 2 + isn't killed that easily if surrounded by dryads.

Anyway I think the artefacts and batallions linking rule is terrible as it is. You should just get a fixed number of items for a certain points level. 1 for 1000, 2 for 2000 or something. Or the same as battleline units.

[Aginor]

2 hours ago, Dragon10 said:

Anyone know if allies battleline can count as your armies battline ?

eg have 

glade guard as allies

and 2 x 5 Tree Revs 

 

Allies cannot be battleline, sorry!

(actually I like that. Or would you like to see SCE armies that just bring along a battleline of 3x10 Skinks for a mere 60 points each and hammer you with all their elite units?. I certainly wouldn't want to see that).

[Aezeal]

As Kurnoth bow hunter replacement how would you rate

- 2 waywatchers (the hero's) --> I'm thinking about these in those last 320 points I've got left. (the damage output seems better for less points and they are still pretty durable with 10 wounds total, a 4+ and -1 to hit by shooting. Significantly lower range is a big problem but still... 6 shots 2+/3+ rend 1 each exploding on 5+ when standing still...not bad.

- 2 repeater boltthrowers (I know.. they won't likely have a keyword that will allow allying.. but still). Their damage output seems very high on a somewhat longer range, with a very LOW durability.

[scrubyandwells]

44 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

As Kurnoth bow hunter replacement how would you rate

- 2 waywatchers (the hero's) --> I'm thinking about these in those last 320 points I've got left. (the damage output seems better for less points and they are still pretty durable with 10 wounds total, a 4+ and -1 to hit by shooting. Significantly lower range is a big problem but still... 6 shots 2+/3+ rend 1 each exploding on 5+ when standing still...not bad.

- 2 repeater boltthrowers (I know.. they won't likely have a keyword that will allow allying.. but still). Their damage output seems very high on a somewhat longer range, with a very LOW durability.

Yeah Waywatchers seem like an interesting option in place of Hunter bows.

[Nico]

Quote

They fare quite well at 120pts for 3 and put out a metric ton of damage.

That's because they're Skyfarers. 

More seriously - they are an undercosted unit and you could take 6 plus a Khemist for 380.

 

[vesco]

So i guess it's pretty bad that i bought, mounted, and painted another unit of kurnoth hunter with bows 

[Ratatatata]

Very impressed by the theory-mongering going on based just on a few leaks. As I haven't had a chance to look at any of the new scenarios, I'm more or less clueless about how I want to (re)build my Sylvaneth. But the very obnoxious task of painting 20 Spite Revenants seems to be worth it, after all! 

Most of the changes for our part looks good, sure it sucks to pay so much for our battalions but that goes for the opponents as well. Although I do think this hurts us a bit more as the decision re first turn seems really important to most of our current builds. And no matter the changes to our and other armies, I think we'll still need to be an army that deploys in one drop. 

I'm not to sure about the 30 dryads. 20 seems to be the sweet spot whit regards to placing them in a forest with a treeman in the middle. 30 is gonna be a hassle. 

What I'm really exited about is the allies rules. Sylvaneth with a few units of judicators, heraldors or a Prime - yum! 

[Lanoss]

I found in most recent games running a Gnarlroot battalion that I rarely got the opportunity to cast 2 spells per guy each phase (in ANY of the phases!). So I'm not too phased about the high pts costs of the Wargrove tbh... I'll just run another unit... perhaps just run another Wych or two... or Drycha!


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[vesco]

I think that the new book will make the game more"hordish" with a lot of more models due to price reduction, so dryncha might fit very well with her Swarm of Squirmlings or the branchwych with her spites

[Aezeal]

56 minutes ago, Ratatatata said:

Very impressed by the theory-mongering going on based just on a few leaks. As I haven't had a chance to look at any of the new scenarios, I'm more or less clueless about how I want to (re)build my Sylvaneth. But the very obnoxious task of painting 20 Spite Revenants seems to be worth it, after all! 

Most of the changes for our part looks good, sure it sucks to pay so much for our battalions but that goes for the opponents as well. Although I do think this hurts us a bit more as the decision re first turn seems really important to most of our current builds. And no matter the changes to our and other armies, I think we'll still need to be an army that deploys in one drop. 

I'm not to sure about the 30 dryads. 20 seems to be the sweet spot whit regards to placing them in a forest with a treeman in the middle. 30 is gonna be a hassle. 

What I'm really exited about is the allies rules. Sylvaneth with a few units of judicators, heraldors or a Prime - yum! 

Well all the points of our army and the batallions is more than "a few leaks" to me since it's about the only relevant things that will change :D.

Not being a one drop isn't that bad against a lot of enemies really.

I agree on the dryads.. 20 is nice, a bit of redundancy for the armor bonus, not too large, not too small :=D

I like the allies too, but I'm mainly looking into wanderers for allies, if the compendium keyword remains wanderers and we can still use those I think all those hero's in there are very interesting. For 100/120 points those hero's on stag and eagle would be fast and punchy. (My most regular opponent is always acting like I'm some sort of WAAC player.. while I only played 1 game with 9 hunters so far :S. Not a hurricanum in my army... if I take the raptors he'll be pretty annoyed

[Aezeal]

36 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

I found in most recent games running a Gnarlroot battalion that I rarely got the opportunity to cast 2 spells per guy each phase (in ANY of the phases!). So I'm not too phased about the high pts costs of the Wargrove tbh... I'll just run another unit... perhaps just run another Wych or two... or Drycha!


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While I got to casting 2 spells with several guys usually I still think 250 points is quite a bit.

 

Quote

So i guess it's pretty bad that i bought, mounted, and painted another unit of kurnoth hunter with bows 

I got my 3th box 2 weeks ago, haven't even painted them yet. I doubt I'll play 9 anytime soon... but I now have 3 of each so oen of each pose so it'll be nice to have them in the display

Still wondering wether I really should go and get me some spites... I'd only use them in a dreadwood and that means getting a ton of them... and I'm not sure I want to play an alpha strike list. (my regular opponent is sure to react... touchy).

 Like this

[Ratatatata]

4 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

I like the allies too, but I'm mainly looking into wanderers for allies, if the compendium keyword remains wanderers and we can still use those I think all those hero's in there are very interesting. For 100/120 points those hero's on stag and eagle would be fast and punchy. (My most regular opponent is always acting like I'm some sort of WAAC player.. while I only played 1 game with 9 hunters so far :S. Not a hurricanum in my army... if I take the raptors he'll be pretty annoyed

You're probably right, but wanderers as allies seems so... old Warhammer  

[Aezeal]

10 minutes ago, Ratatatata said:

You're probably right, but wanderers as allies seems so... old Warhammer  

Well I think the only thing we need in allies is maybe cheaper shooting, something flying or a nice spell. I think Dryads are pretty nice all-rounders for a lot of other roles on the table, certainly at 100 points. Cheap enough to use as a speedbump somewhat durable even in that function so might last 2 rounds. 2 attacks each on a battleline unit isn't bad either. Fast so you can get them where you want. A few nice bonus abilities.... Dryads are my go to girls :D.

So as allies I think wanderers with 

-waywatcher heroes

-glade guard/ waywatcher troops/sisters of the watch

-hero on stag/eagle

-sisters of the thorn

fill a lot of the things we might need. 

The forest dragon might even be a good option.

 

 

Quote

 

Or 1 drop Dreadwood

• Dreadwood + Outcasts 290
• 4x5 Spites 320
• Alarielle 600
• Drycha 280
• 30 Dryads 270
• Treeman 240

 

 

Would a forest dragon in there to make sure everything in your alphastrike get's to attack before the enemy, not to mention it's not inconsiderable damage output help? Or is it unneeded? (you'd have to delete 2 out of 3 of the bottom 3 lines but would have some points left to play depending on it's new points ofc.

[swarmofseals]

11 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

i wanna try gnarloot too in this edition, but im not sure about treelord . it seems not so good in combat . maybe 3 more hunters with gs are better?

Under the old pointing I think that Kurnoths pretty clearly outshined Treelords, although the TL definitely provided some utility. Now it's a lot closer. I think there are valid roles for Kurnoths with Swords, Kurnoths with Scythes and Treelords.

• Kurnoths with swords have the best damage against anything with a save worse than 3+, but the 1" range is a problem. It makes the thicket ability harder to use and gives you fewer tactical options.
• Kurnoths with scythes have the best damage against anything with a save 3+ or better, and their 2" range means that they can reach over a line of Dryads or Revenants. This makes them an ideal choice for supporting a large block of Dryads that might not be in range to get the General's command ability.
• Treelords have nice ranged attack and a 3" attack range. This allows them to fight behind two lines of Dryads or one line of Kurnoths. That's a pretty big deal, as it will help you concentrate a bit more damage. Their stomp ability is also incredible in support. Their offense is weaker than Kurnoths, of course.

 

 

4 hours ago, Aezeal said:

As Kurnoth bow hunter replacement how would you rate

- 2 waywatchers (the hero's) --> I'm thinking about these in those last 320 points I've got left. (the damage output seems better for less points and they are still pretty durable with 10 wounds total, a 4+ and -1 to hit by shooting. Significantly lower range is a big problem but still... 6 shots 2+/3+ rend 1 each exploding on 5+ when standing still...not bad.

- 2 repeater boltthrowers (I know.. they won't likely have a keyword that will allow allying.. but still). Their damage output seems very high on a somewhat longer range, with a very LOW durability.

Each waywatcher is going to do an average of 4.44 rend 1 damage when standing still (3.11 while moving), the exact same as a unit of bow Kurnoths. So yeah, if you have spare hero slots and aren't filling up your allies with other stuff these can scratch your itch for some ranged support. Damage will be more efficient than Kurnoths but the defense is worse. 

Sylv can't take RBTs as allies. 

[Dragon10]

I'm thinking of a MSU style list but will have problem not getting furst turns at stuff

1 x Drycha 280

1 x branchwych 80

1 x branchwych 80

5 x Tree Revs 80

5 x Tree Revs 80

5 x Tree Revs 80

3 x hunters with bows 220

3 x hunters with bows 220

3 x hunters with sythes 220

3 x hunters with sythes 220

allies

1 x waywatcher 100

1 x waywatcher 100

20 x eternal guard 160

 

as you can see I like hunters for there looks and I know this ain't the strongest list but hoping it could still compete

[Mirage8112]

So here'a an interesting idea, and I think it shows some of the possibilities we have when we play with allies/formations. 

Allegiance: Order

Heroes
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Command Trait: [TBD] 
- Artefact: [TBD]
Branchwych (80)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages
Branchwych (80)
- Artefact: [TBD]
Battleline
20 x Dryads (200)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
- Sylvaneth Battleline

Units
9 x Endrinriggers (360)

Behemoths
Treelord (240)

Allies
10 x Vanguard-Hunters (280)
3 x Aetherwings (60)

Battalions
Ironbark Wargrove (160)
Household (70)

Total: 1990/2000

It's almost perfect 3-way split points wise. 1/3 Sylvaneth, 1/3 Kharadron Overlords, and 1/3 stormcast.

The cool thing about a list like this, is that it has strong alpha-strike resistance, but can also alpha strike if necessary. It won't be a 1 drop army, but considering you can pretty much null deploy just about everything, there won't really be anything worthwhile for the enemy to strike. But since the hunters and t-rev's can come in from a board edge, and the endrinriggers have crazy mobility with skyhooks and grapnel launchers you have a erasable shot of putting a lot of pressure on the opponents flanks or rear. 

Play would go as follows: The only thing you need on the board at deployment is one of the branchwytches (to drop acorn turn 1), the Edrinriggers, and  the aetherwings. The Aetherwings, should deploy between the other two units, and are there to prevent any surprise ambushes (since they can move in the enemies charge phase.) T-revs can be deployed to screen if required, but I suspect the aetherwings and careful positioning should be enough to prevent any huge surprises. 

If you enemy gets first turn and tries to tie up your forest, then you can bring the hunters in, and use them in combination with the endrinriggers to clear a spot for everything else. Plus, your branchwytch will get the opportunity to throw down that second forest which should allow you to bring on the dryads, TL, TLA. If the enemy is sitting behind a gunline, Hunters, and t-rev's can all come in from a table edge. Edrinriggers take the place of hunters here, and between skyhooks and grapnel launchers, they should be plenty mobile.

This list is all about ability and board control, since it has the capability of bring pretty much everything to bear in a single spot if it wants to. TL and TLA are more than capable of killing other behemoths (thanks to impaling talons). The Endrinriggers/Sylvaneth portion of the list is practically immune to battleshock, and the T-rev's get a little combat boost thanks to rerolling 1's. It does not have access to a horde, but if you wanted to you could cut 1 of the witches and add 10 more dryads for a full block of 30. ( the main reason I included the second Branchwytch was for the extra artifact, but I don't feel tied to it.)

Add Spells, artifacts,and command traits to taste. Stir. Profit. 

-----

*Edit

Incidentally, under the old point values this list would have been 1980/2000 pts. So nearly the same. Albeit, you wouldn't have been able to keep your Sylvaneth allegiance which is pretty critical to making a list like this work .

[swarmofseals]

@Mirage8112 How would you load out the Endrinrigger unit? It's certainly an interesting idea -- the durability of the Sylvaneth makes up for the fragility of the riggers, and the riggers themselves give you a real hammer as well as some plausible hero sniping ability.

[Dragon10]

I also like the idea of 

1 x durthu 400
1 x durthu 400
1 x branch 80

5 x Tree Revs 80
5 x Tree Revs 80
5 x Tree Revs 80

3 x hunters 220
3 x hunters 220
3 x hunters 220
3 x hunters 220

[Mirage8112]

25 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

@Mirage8112 How would you load out the Endrinrigger unit? It's certainly an interesting idea -- the durability of the Sylvaneth makes up for the fragility of the riggers, and the riggers themselves give you a real hammer as well as some plausible hero sniping ability.

It depends. 

The trick with melee 'Riggers is being totally sure they can get into combat. With a 12" move 2D6 charge, your looking at a likely threat range of 18-20". In my mind, that's less than I would like. So I do think there will be some utility in swapping out 2-3 of the Aethersaws for something to increase the threat range. The tricky part, is that for every ranged weapon you give them, they lose their aethersaws in return. I.e. the better at ranged combat they get, the worse they are in melee (as it should be). The choice here is between sky-hooks and grapnel launchers. Grapnels are a flat 4+ roll, but do no damage, and skyhooks have about a 40% chance to net you an extra D6 move toward their target. 

By my math, two skyhooks should be enough to give you at least an extra 1d6 of movement. That brings their threat range up to around 26" or so. Then you also have the grapnel launcher if that's not quite enough. Between those swaps, the unit should be expected to put out ~15 wounds between shooting and melee. And since saw have a rend of -2, they can pretty confidently shred most medium armored troops. 

Plus, since they will have spell support in the form of mystic shield, they can get shielded for a 3+, charge into an enemy camping a wyldwood (they fly, so no need to worry bout losing models to dangerous terrain) then they'll also get a +1 the next turn (since charging models can't claim cover). 

Between the damage output on the charge, and increased survivability thanks to shield+cover in the next turn they stand to be pretty effective if you're careful. 

[scrubyandwells]

4 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

So here'a an interesting idea, and I think it shows some of the possibilities we have when we play with allies/formations. 

Allegiance: Order

Heroes
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Command Trait: [TBD] 
- Artefact: [TBD]
Branchwych (80)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages
Branchwych (80)
- Artefact: [TBD]
Battleline
20 x Dryads (200)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
- Sylvaneth Battleline

Units
9 x Endrinriggers (360)

Behemoths
Treelord (240)

Allies
10 x Vanguard-Hunters (280)
3 x Aetherwings (60)

Battalions
Ironbark Wargrove (160)
Household (70)

Total: 1990/2000

Definitely an interesting list.

All else equal, Endrins do seem like one of the best buys in Order at the moment.

One issue with the list is the intended anti-alphastrike role of the Aetherwings. In order to use their Watchful Guardians ability, they need to be within 12" of a Vanguard Raptor unit at the start of the enemy's charge phase.

10 Vanguard-Hunters (or 2x5) is compelling. As mentioned earlier, I suspect we're going to need additional reach/utility that doesn't rely on Wyldwoods. 

In general, do you think 10 Vanguard-Hunters, in whatever combination, will be a better bet than 20 TRevs (again in whatever combination, e.g., 1x20, 4x5, 2x10, etc.)? 

20 wounds of Vanguard-Hunters are 40pts cheaper than 20 wounds of TRevs. The former have a better save, but the latter have a notably higher damage-output ceiling.

Re: 9 Endrins, I'd be a little concerned about their capacity to survive long enough to pull their weight. Hard to know ATM how much alphastrike shooting we're going to see (alphastrike combat is easier to deal with of course via screens). They could often be back-boarded, though, and brought out at an opportune time, leveraging their high mobility. 

Really wish I liked their aesthetic...but setting aside any concerns other than competitive strength, Endrins would seem to give us a high-value piece via Ironbark at a great buy.

[scrubyandwells]

And yeah not sure you'd need the second Branchwych. Seems like add. Dryads would be a better bet. I'd be tempted to add a unit of 10 rather than expanding the one to 30, in order to have another utility piece / fewer eggs in one basket. Maybe similar to how I haven't been a fan of 6 scythes for a long while, 30 Dryads seem like they'd have similar limitations, unless you're turning them into a deathstar a la Shield of Thorns, Mystic Shield, etc.

[scrubyandwells]

5 hours ago, Dragon10 said:

As you can see I like hunters for there looks and I know this ain't the strongest list but hoping it could still compete

Thanks for sharing the list. Pretty cool looking. One potential concern would be Duality of Death (the new Three Places of Power). Drycha + 2 Branchwyches could be pretty vulnerable vs a lot of lists.

[scrubyandwells]

If one isn't opposed to compendium warscrolls, the Shadowdancer could be notable, especially if it stays around 100pts. 

On a 5+, it can cast Bridge of Shadows on a Wanderers keyword unit within 18" (LOS isn't required). The unit can double the distance it can move and can fly for the duration of its next movement phase. 

As one example, the Shadowdancer could use Bridge of Shadows on 30 Eternal Guard, enabling them to fly 12" (+D6 for running). That combo would only cost 310 pts (210 for 30 Eternal Guard). 

That could potentially check a number of boxes re: mobility, model count (especially for scoring), screening/chaffing, setting up a combo w/ another unit, catching someone out, etc.

Of course, some lists will have strong anti-magic, e.g., Seraphon and Tzeentch.

[scrubyandwells]

On 8/21/2017 at 4:17 PM, scrubyandwells said:

After going through potential allies, here's one GHB17 iteration w/ Alarielle that fits my personal walk-and-chew-gum playstyle:

• Alarielle (Verdant) - 600
• Ancient (Oaken Armour, Regrowth) - 300
• Waywatcher - 100
• Waywatcher - 100
• 10 Dryads - 100
• 10 Dryads - 100
• 5 TRevs - 80
• 3 Scythes - 220
• 3 Scythes - 220
• 3 Vanguard Longstrikes - 180

Here's a sans-Alarielle version reflective of what I'd be interested (aesthetically) in running. TBD whether it'd be very viable. Dryads would be 1x20 + 1x10 or 3x10.

• Ancient
  • Gnarled Warrior, Oaken Armour or Moonstone, Regrowth
• Drycha
  • Verdant or Dwellers
• Branchwych
  • Acorn, Verdant or Throne of Vines
• Waywatcher
• Waywatcher
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 5 TRevs
• 3 KH Scythes
• 3 KH Scythes
• Treelord
• Household

1990/2000

1. Drycha is likely critical for anti-horde. Dwellers would be ideal but could do Verdant to split up source of Wyldwood summoning in case of alphastrike.

2. Waywatchers (28" threat range) substitute for KH Greatbows, as we've already started discussing. Not a perfect substitute, but pretty good.

3. Seeing all 6 of the new Pitched Battles would shape Dryads build out. Tempted by MSU for flexibility, but it could hurt re: 20+ model scoring rule.

4. Scythes or die.

5. Ancient + Drycha + Treelord should be solid for Duality of Death and Three Places of Power (some events will mix-and-match GH16 + GH17 Pitched Battles).

6. @ 47 models, it'd be a good list to playtest vs hordes in the new Pitched Battles to see if it's viable in what may become a strong horde/anti-horde meta.

Update:

1. One alternative: Swap out 1 Waywatcher and 10 Dryads for 1 Knight-Venator and another unit of 5 TRevs, or take the one unit to 10.

The extra unit of Dryads might be sorely missed. Nevertheless the Venator would give the list a much-needed chance (keyword: chance!) at sniping a hero early game, or setting up focus-firing w/ it's Star-Fated Arrow + other shooting to knock out a 12+ wound model.

The Venator also provides nice utility w/ it's 12" fly.

And the miniature is just brilliant.

2. Here's an updated Alarielle variation:

• Alarielle
  • Verdant
• Ancient
  • Gnarled Warrior, Oaken Armour or Moonstone, Regrowth
• Branchwych
  • Dwellers
• Waywatcher
• Waywatcher
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 5 TRevs
• 3 KH Scythes
• 3 KH Scythes

2000/2000 (2,040 in old GH1 pts)

3. At the moment, for both lists above, I'd probably swap a Waywatcher and 10 Dryads for the Venator and 5 more TRevs. It's a touch choice, though.

4. Even if we're entering an Age of Hordes, hopefully <50-model lists will still be viable competitively, but I'm a little worried...