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scrubyandwells

Let's Chat Sylvaneth

2,635 posts in this topic

Aezeal    210

220 for hunters wouldn't surprise me.. but it would annoy me.. and then they'd better increase some other strong (ranged) units in points too...

If dryads go to 100 points then I'd be happy.. I only have 9 hunters currently so then I could probably just play the lists I've already been playing without any problem. 

Drycha at 280 is good yes.. certainly with more horde armies... so far she's and the TLA are auto includes in all my lists, TLA for this command ability.. but that is mostly becuase he has little competition.. Drycha is there because of what she brings in melee and ranged damage: It'd be great if she stays at that number.. but really I'd still auto include here are 300.. and at 320 I doubt I'll cut her.

Also a good point about gnarlroot price increase.. on the otherhand it totals at 100 points now and that is more than some other equally powerful batallions around.

I actually hope that the HE/DE boltthrowers drop in price slightly... I still have 2 DE ones lying around and wanted to ally them with WE (before AOS) but never got around to it.. they'll get a WE colorscheme anyway so allying them into sylvaneth would be fun (also means that my other ally.. the loremaster has a nice target turn 1).

Edited by Aezeal

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Aezeal    210

PS with allies I'll probably try a different strat to make the tree revenants usefull for me: hiding an assassin in them: assassins for 80 points don't deal as much damage as the revenants against regular targets.. but against hero's he SHOULD be worth those points.

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scrubyandwells    362
9 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

PS with allies I'll probably try a different strat to make the tree revenants usefull for me: hiding an assassin in them: assassins for 80 points don't deal as much damage as the revenants against regular targets.. but against hero's he SHOULD be worth those points.

Yeah had been thinking about an Assassin as well (another ex: Moonstoning an Ancient, getting off the 4+ charge, and popping out the Assassin), but it'll probably be a moot point, since it seems (appropriately) unlikely Shadowblades will be an Allies option for us. 

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Nico    1,923

Please don't even say the words "Dryads go to 20 minimum." That's literally army out the window bad.

Good point about Assassins.

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Jamopower    200

Assassin in tree revenants has actually been something that I've been thinking about as well as I play mixed order mostly. I even have the model but haven't painted him yet (next in line). 

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Aezeal    210
15 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Yeah had been thinking about an Assassin as well (another ex: Moonstoning an Ancient, getting off the 4+ charge, and popping out the Assassin), but it'll probably be a moot point, since it seems (appropriately) unlikely Shadowblades will be an Allies option for us. 

Yeah good point about the allies.. Even my loremaster will probably still need gnarlroot. . To bad, he'd do fine in free spirits I think. ( there isn't much from wanderers I'd like in my sylvaneth army though... Only Orion maybe... All other stuff I was thinking about are other elves .. Lore master, assassin, phoenix, boltthrower etc.)

I hope I didn't say 20 Dryads minimum.. while in 2k I do play them with 2 x 20 I'd really like to keep the option of taking 10.

Edited by Aezeal

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chord    375
15 hours ago, Aezeal said:

PS with allies I'll probably try a different strat to make the tree revenants usefull for me: hiding an assassin in them: assassins for 80 points don't deal as much damage as the revenants against regular targets.. but against hero's he SHOULD be worth those points.

With no rend the hero would need a bad save or horrible dice luck.  

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Aezeal    210

Well 5 revenants alone are not enough.. but with this guy in addition to them together they should kill most 5 wound heroes. 6 attacks and on average that souls be 3 wound.. And D3 damage.

 

Hmm the Assassin in the sos app has less a tacks and needs to be placed in exiles unit...odd yesterday I had a different warscroll from the site

Edited by Aezeal

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Mirage8112    454
On 8/10/2017 at 0:29 PM, scrubyandwells said:

2. I'm as confident as possible Hunters are going up, whether justified or not, which (seemingly) means we'll need to get points back elsewhere to maintain the faction's internal competitive viability. Of course, Allies will throw us a big wrinkle. At the same time, I don't think Allies should be required to be competitive in matched play / at tournaments.

3. I suspect Hunters will go up to 220, so that's going to be a sizable hit for many lists, including the Alarielle (6 or 9 KH) / Drycha (12 or 15 KH) / Durthu (12 KH) variations of Gnarlroot. 

 


i'm curious to your reasoning for this. I've heard this elsewhere, but I haven't seen any solid reasoning why.

It's funny, with the leaks (I use that term loosely since it's GW who is doing the leaking) we've seen mostly point reductions, very slight increases or the changing of unit sizes so far. We've seen point decreases more often than increases, and increases have mostly been a result of changing min unit sizes. But as other units get cheaper, hunters get more expensive by comparison. Nothing i've seen from the leaked rules indicated major point adjustments across the range. Moonclan fanatics got a slight increase (+~3ppm; 100 per 3 instead of 30 per 1.) Ale guzzler gargants are getting a confirmed point reduction in an unspecified amount. Currently they are at 180 points per model and supposedly you'l be able to fit 2 into the 400 pt ally sideboard. Which means they could go as low as 140, but my guess is that 160pts is more likely. 

Now, if that's true and a giant is priced at 160pts, with 12 wounds and a damage output range around ~8-10 wounds, do you really feel that hunters, with 3 more wounds that does maybe 2-3 wounds more per round of combat, will be pointed 40% pts more? Granted there are differences between the units (hunter get a few more abilities, a slightly better save, but have to take battleshock and are significantly slower) but even taking that into account a 40% difference seems excessive to me. 

Most multi-wound elite troops are currently priced the same as hunters.  Take Ironjawz brutes for example. I've always said their damage output was comaparable to melee hunters and the only reason Brutes weren't better on the tabletop is because of limited army synergy (although they have done decently in a few tournaments as of late). They seemed to have given that very issue a bit of attention in the new book. With the new leaked allegiance abilities for Ironjaws, they look pretty serious now (if an iron jaws unit destroys a unit in combat the nearest friendly iron jaw unit can immediately pile in and attack even it's not their turn to activate a unit). Add to that the ability to bring in allies to fill holes in their lists (shooting, magic for example), they seem to have fixed that synergy problem. So...

If you do think that Hunters are worth that increase (compared to other known points values), do you see that as warranted across the range? For example do you see an increase on Ironjawz Brutes from 180pts to 220pts as well? How about the other multi-wound Elite models in the game: Kroxigor (3 for 180pts), Demigryph knights (3 for 200), Leadbelchers (3 for 160), or Mighty Skullchrushers (160 per 3)? In other words do you think that it's just this one unit that's too strong or is it that class of model game-wide?  

I'd also like to get @Nico's take on this as well. 
 

Edited by Mirage8112
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Nico    1,923

The difference with Hunters vs Brutes is the combination of rerollable saves vs melee plus rent-a-cover plus mobility. That's why you never see Scythe Hunters in a Mixed Order army.

The increased pricing seems to be more about the Bow Hunters, which are solid.

Given subsequent releases: Skyfires, KO and Aetherstrike with Raptors; and hard counters like Mirrorshield, I no longer see Hunters (esp. the melee ones) as undercosted (and never thought any more than a 20 point nudge was needed). They were the first great elite unit leading into a window of no releases and so they have garnered a reputation for being OP.

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scrubyandwells    362

Some who had meaningful influence on informing the points at the (seemingly) relevant time seemed to think they were undercosted, and I believe they thought they were sufficiently so (again at the time) to warrant a 40pt bump.

I've held the view for a while FWIW they're reasonably well-priced within sylvaneth allegiance overall (but I could see the case for a 20pt bump), but underpriced within mixed Order. On the whole, I think 200 is fine and wouldn't likely trigger a net nerf. A primary concern, though, is Hunters going up 40 and sylvaneth not being sufficiently rebalanced internally to avoid that net nerf, with the exception of potentially adding in Allies.

Of course, we're dealing with very limited information. Maybe they'll be a lot stronger in GH2017, which could also be an issue in the other direction since they've been in a pretty good spot in my view - not dominating at all, but quite viable.

It's tough to assess these things with such limited information; eg the Ironjawz feedback project I facilitated with Nico and others was based on Ironjawz as they were, and the landscape and meta as it was, rather than factoring in Ironjawz allegiance abilities and how they'd affect their units and overall faction. 

Ultimately, though, I'm hopeful for our beloved trees. 

Edited by scrubyandwells
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Aezeal    210

Yeah there was a rumor on the net that people play testing had seen hunters at 220. How much salt needs to be applied is ofc the question.

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Mirage8112    454
1 hour ago, Aezeal said:

Yeah there was a rumor on the net that people play testing had seen hunters at 220. How much salt needs to be applied is ofc the question.

I'm pretty good at following rumor sites as well as board gossip, I haven't seen anything regarding this. Do you remember where you saw it?

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Kaylethia    2
8 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

I'm pretty good at following rumor sites as well as board gossip, I haven't seen anything regarding this. Do you remember where you saw it?

The source for this was apparently one of the bigger podcasts, who were brought on as playtesters. I can't remember which podcast it was, I tried to find the episode in question but couldn't find anything. The next big thing was Skirmish coming out and the formula for point-to-renown conversion fueling the rumor mill.

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Mirage8112    454
7 hours ago, Kaylethia said:

The source for this was apparently one of the bigger podcasts, who were brought on as playtesters. I can't remember which podcast it was, I tried to find the episode in question but couldn't find anything. The next big thing was Skirmish coming out and the formula for point-to-renown conversion fueling the rumor mill.


I do remember that. I think it was Heelanhammer who was extrapolating the points from skirmish renown. I'm still skeptical.

I guess we'll see!

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mikey    3

Looking for some info on placing wyldwoods, in matched play it is my understanding that with the sylvaneth allegiance the player has the ability to place down a wyldwood during the set up of the game? Does this same ability work in path to glory as well?

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ChippyRick    131
On 8/11/2017 at 11:12 PM, scrubyandwells said:

Some who had meaningful influence on informing the points at the (seemingly) relevant time seemed to think they were undercosted, and I believe they thought they were sufficiently so (again at the time) to warrant a 40pt bump.

I've held the view for a while FWIW they're reasonably well-priced within sylvaneth allegiance overall (but I could see the case for a 20pt bump), but underpriced within mixed Order. On the whole, I think 200 is fine and wouldn't likely trigger a net nerf. A primary concern, though, is Hunters going up 40 and sylvaneth not being sufficiently rebalanced internally to avoid that net nerf, with the exception of potentially adding in Allies.

Of course, we're dealing with very limited information. Maybe they'll be a lot stronger in GH2017, which could also be an issue in the other direction since they've been in a pretty good spot in my view - not dominating at all, but quite viable.

It's tough to assess these things with such limited information; eg the Ironjawz feedback project I facilitated with Nico and others was based on Ironjawz as they were, and the landscape and meta as it was, rather than factoring in Ironjawz allegiance abilities and how they'd affect their units and overall faction. 

Ultimately, though, I'm hopeful for our beloved trees. 

This has been my concern for a while now, as i have bene holding off starting my Sylvaneth with the concern the internal balance could drop due to the use of units in mixed armies effecting the points increase decision. We know that it for the most part is the buffing units within these lists that add to this so hopefully it is those and other rules that can effect this and points within Sylvaneth adjust accordingly.

I think the main thing to think about is a lot of time / effort and feedback has been used to create the new book / points and I believe the correct outcome will keep Sylvaneth as a single allegience that is still competative. There is a lot of hope there as well as I am eager to get started with mine.

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Kramer    673
On 8/11/2017 at 10:33 PM, Mirage8112 said:

Ale guzzler gargants are getting a confirmed point reduction in an unspecified amount. Currently they are at 180 points per model and supposedly you'l be able to fit 2 into the 400 pt ally sideboard.

Hmm where did you see the conformation of the reduction? Because 2x180 still fits in 400pt ;) 

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Aezeal    210
4 hours ago, ChippyRick said:

This has been my concern for a while now, as i have bene holding off starting my Sylvaneth with the concern the internal balance could drop due to the use of units in mixed armies effecting the points increase decision. We know that it for the most part is the buffing units within these lists that add to this so hopefully it is those and other rules that can effect this and points within Sylvaneth adjust accordingly.

I think the main thing to think about is a lot of time / effort and feedback has been used to create the new book / points and I believe the correct outcome will keep Sylvaneth as a single allegience that is still competative. There is a lot of hope there as well as I am eager to get started with mine.

I'd prefer the hurricanum to go up 40-60 points and the hunters only 20 or 0. Support units with direct buffs are way undervalued in this game.. 

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Mirage8112    454
3 hours ago, Kramer said:

Hmm where did you see the conformation of the reduction? Because 2x180 still fits in 400pt ;) 

From Warhammer Community:

"Thanks to allies, loads of units from the Destruction Grand Alliance can now find a place in your armies. Aleguzzler Gargants now cost fewer points and can be added to any Destruction army looking for a hard-hitting Behemoth capable of dealing buckets of wounds, or at the very least, causing some damage when it inevitably falls over. In a 2000 point army, you’ll be able to get two of these into your allies slot."

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Popisdead    100

What is the Drycha Coldplay list mentioned on the Blacksun podcast?  He implied it is quite well-known or common.  I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this for me.

 

Thanks,

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Aezeal    210
18 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

What is the Drycha Coldplay list mentioned on the Blacksun podcast?  He implied it is quite well-known or common.  I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this for me.

 

Thanks,

My google efforts on Drycha coldplay (which I didn't know) got me to another topic on this forum. There it was mentioned in a post about the element games tournament and someone called DAVID playing it. Googling THAT I easily found a entry list for it.

http://facehammer.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/eggs-aos-lists.pdf

Ctrl F for DAVID got me a list with Drycha.

 

It's basicly a min battleline gnarlroot list with max hunters and a Drycha. Just wondering about dwellers on Drycha.

Edited by Aezeal

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scrubyandwells    362
18 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

What is the Drycha Coldplay list mentioned on the Blacksun podcast?  He implied it is quite well-known or common.  I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this for me.

 

Thanks,

Here you go:

Treelord Ancient

Drycha 

Branchwych

10 Dryads

5 Tree-Revenants

5 Tree-Revenants

6 Kurnoth Hunters w/ Scythes

3 Kurnoth Hunters w/ Greatbows 

3 Kurnoth Hunters w/ Greatbows 

3 Kurnoth Hunters w/ Greatbows 

Gnarlroot Wargrove 

Household

Edited by scrubyandwells

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Aezeal    210

I'd personally go regrowth, the reaping or even treesong on her before Dwellers.. but I guess I''m not a tourney player. 

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Popisdead    100
31 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Here you go:

Treelord Ancient

Drycha 

Branchwych

10 Dryads

5 Tree-Revenants

5 Tree-Revenants

6 Kurnoth Hunters w/ Scythes

3 Kurnoth Hunters w/ Greatbows 

3 Kurnoth Hunters w/ Greatbows 

3 Kurnoth Hunters w/ Greatbows 

Gnarlroot Wargrove 

Household

Thanks to both of you (my googling was utter failure it seems).

 

What makes it "coldplay" other than I assume it's a stand back and shoot and avoid combat?

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