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scrubyandwells

Let's Chat Sylvaneth

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On 8/9/2016 at 6:21 AM, Zen said:

@Forestreveries very good point! Although if they do indeed choose the side with the wyldwoods, you could just deploy as normal and use the Treelord Ancients spell to wreak havoc on their army - as large portions of their army most likely would be close to the giant wyldwood!

I plan to eventually build a 2000 pts list with the Batallion too, and encounter the same problem as you. I think a neat additional 500 pts could be:

+ 10 dryads (to round out one of the units to 20) +120 pts

+ 3 Kurnoth Hunters +180 pts

+5 Judicators (making 1 larger unit of 10) +160 pts

Turn the Treelord into an ancient +40 pts

The Kurnoth hunters would help spread the command ability of the Treelord Ancient, thereby helping in scenarios where you have to spread the force out. Tempted to run them with bows for a fairly decent shooting phase (10 judicators and 3 K.Hunters), but I'm not entirely sure. Heard good things about the Hunters with scythes, and my bow hunters haven't performed as well as expected.

There's a lot to be said for taking at least one Celestial Hurricanum for its +1 to hit via Portents of Battle and keeping the greatbow Kurnoth Hunters within range of it.

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23 hours ago, carrigher82 said:

Hi all awesome thread. I'm a newb here so am working my way through the content gradually trying to soak up the strategy and detail.

Spirit durthu 

X 2 Kurnoth Bows

X 1 Kurnoth scythes 

20 dryads 

10 tree revenants 

Branchwych 

Treelord Ancient 

Welcome abord @carrigher82!

Would love to hear updates on how your playtesting goes. In terms of the above list, it looks like a great one for playtesting. 

May the Forest be with you. 

A'hem.

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8 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Finally!! ¬¬

Really enjoying this thread guys! From @scrubyandwells in depth thoughts and theories, to the Tournament report from @Stevewren, input from newer players like @MidasKiss and everything in between. Good work all!

I do think you treefolk will have to develop some counter strategies to deal with Destruction, specifically Beastclaw Raiders as I reckon we as a Grand Alliance have a decent time vs you (even being able to smash up your beloved Wild Woods to really rub it in if we like!) ;) 

Thanks, Chris! :)

Finally looked at the Beastclaw Raiders' points last night. Couldn't quite believe it. Holy Moses. This isn't the place for a discussion about it, but good lord...the Stonehorns seem like one of the best buys in the game right now. 360pts for a 24-wound-equivalent model with an enormous charge threat and huge damage potential? Sheesh. :)  

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3 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

There's a lot to be said for taking at least one Celestial Hurricanum for its +1 to hit via Portents of Battle and keeping the greatbow Kurnoth Hunters within range of it.

I've seen mentions of this around on the 1D4chan tactics website, but has anyone seen it done? Could be cool, though I feel like you'd better convert that CH to some kind of overgrown thing to fit into the army. Would actually be pretty cool~

2 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

It's up!

 

Aaron

Winter has come! Time to put on my reading hat.

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Just saw that the Celestial Hurricanum is 320 points in the GH, but looking at the warscroll I see it does a lot more than just give +1 to hit. Am I right in understanding that shooting attack as (at low wounds) picking a unit, and rolling 6 dice which all automatically do 1/D3/D6 Mortal wounds depending on the dice result? What is this, a beastclaw raiders unit? ;)

As a new player who's only ever played with Sylvaneth, I'm curious what all you guys could share about strategies Sylvaneth forces could use against the other factions you play? Betray their secrets to the dark (green) side...

 

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Celestial Hurricanum is 3 dice at full power. It's actually about as much as a Thundertusk on average (theoretical maximum damage is of course much higher).

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Had a game tonight vs Daemons of Nurgle with the following 1,500pt list, which sparked a realization worth sharing. 

Spirit of Durthu (400)
Branchwych (100)
Dryads x10 (120)
Dryads x10 (120)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Scythes)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Scythes)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Greatswords)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Greatswords)
Free Spirits Battalion (40)

We played Take and Hold. Sylvaneth Wyldwood went down in the middle horizontally. I was given first turn. I moved up Durthu and 3x3 Kurnoth via the Free Spirits' Swift Vengeance – a free move in the hero phase (but no run/charge). In the move phase, I again moved up Durthu and the 3x3 Kurnoth and found myself with four powerful units well placed across the Sylvaneth Wyldwood in the middle of the table.

It suddenly dawned on me the strength of that position (at least vs certain armies). In his first turn, my opponent would have to move up and charge into the Sylvaneth Wyldwood to reach me (and risk losing his models on rolls of 1), or stay back and take charges in my next turn, all of which would likely be successful relative to his position and the additional 10" move (5" in hero phase, 5" in move phase) that I'd be making before rolling charges.

It's obvious in hindsight but it hadn't occurred to me how well the Sylvaneth Wyldwood synergizes with the Free Spirits' Swift Vengeance, since it gives Durthu and your three Kurnoth units a way station, a checkpoint, and might often present your opponent with some tough decisions. 

The battalion is still susceptible to shooting, mortal-wound damage, being charged by powerful units, etc.; but it has considerable potential, especially when supported by elements like a Branchwych staying within range for Mystic Shield and/or Regrowth, Briarsheath and Gnarled Warrior on Durthu, the Kurnoth units at a 3+ save re-rolling if charged within the Wyldwood, using your placement within the Wyldwood bases to minimize models your opponent can bring to bear against you, and so on.

Edited by scrubyandwells

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7 hours ago, MidasKiss said:

As a new player who's only ever played with Sylvaneth, I'm curious what all you guys could share about strategies Sylvaneth forces could use against the other factions you play? Betray their secrets to the dark (green) side...

Aiming to write about this (and hope others will too!) in the coming months...haven't had enough (varied) playtesting quite yet. 

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On 8/12/2016 at 5:56 PM, MidasKiss said:

I've seen mentions of this around on the 1D4chan tactics website, but has anyone seen it done? Could be cool, though I feel like you'd better convert that CH to some kind of overgrown thing to fit into the army. Would actually be pretty cool~

Winter has come! Time to put on my reading hat.

Rob Symes did some cool conversions with bits from Celestial Hurricanums (and possibly a Celestant Prime...) incorporated into the look of a few Treelord Ancients / Treelords. "Treelord Hurricanums" is a very good look, it turns out.

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With a general-purpose competitive list as the aim, here's 1,980pts to be tried out soon:

Spirit of Durthu (400)
 Gnarled Warrior (Command Trait) 
 Briarsheath (Artefact of Power)
Branchwych (100)
  Ranu’s Lamentiri (Artefact of Power)
  Regrowth (Deepwood Spell)
Dryads x10 (120)
Dryads x10 (120)
Dryads x10 (120)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Scythes)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Scythes)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Greatswords)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Greatbows)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Greatbows)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Greatbows)
Free Spirits Battalion (40)

137 wounds for ~2,000pts...pretty efficient for Sylvaneth.

The list has weaknesses, e.g., it could struggle in Three Places of Power with only two heroes and (per usual) vs high mortal-wound output. It could also struggle vs strong Destruction lists, which seems to be one of the glaring Achilles' heels at the moment for Sylvaneth. 

If you want Alarielle, you could swap Durthu, one unit of Kurnoth, and the Free Spirits battalion. It's unclear which list is likely better all around. The thought, though, of having Alarielle's Soul Amphorae healing an army of Kurnoth Hunters is quite attractive.

In terms of Alarielle + Durthu together, I'd be concerned, even though they're an incredible tandem. It doesn't seem you'd have enough elsewhere to have an optimal general-purpose competitive list, but I could be wrong!

Edited by scrubyandwells

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16 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Rob Symes did some cool conversions with bits from Celestial Hurricanums (and possibly a Celestant Prime...) incorporated into the look of a few Treelord Ancients / Treelords. "Treelord Hurricanums" is a very good look, it turns out.

I might try something out down the line, even though the unit is expensive in points the model actually isn't that bad. At what stage do you think it becomes worth getting one over just getting more Kurnoth hunters and etc?

15 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

With a general-purpose competitive list as the aim, here's 1,980pts to be tried out soon:

Spirit of Durthu (400)
 Gnarled Warrior (Command Trait) 
 Briarsheath (Artefact of Power)
Branchwych (100)
  Ranu’s Lamentiri (Artefact of Power)
  Regrowth (Deepwood Spell)
Dryads x10 (120)
Dryads x10 (120)
Dryads x10 (120)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Scythes)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Scythes)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Greatswords)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Greatbows)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Greatbows)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Greatbows)
Free Spirits Battalion (40)

137 wounds for ~2,000pts...pretty efficient for Sylvaneth.

The list has weaknesses, e.g., it could struggle in Three Places of Power with only two heroes and (per usual) vs high mortal-wound output. It could also struggle vs strong Destruction lists, which seems to be one of the glaring Achilles' heels at the moment for Sylvaneth. 

If you want Alarielle, you could swap Durthu, one unit of Kurnoth, and the Free Spirits battalion. It's unclear which list is likely better all around. The thought, though, of having Alarielle's Soul Amphorae healing an army of Kurnoth Hunters is quite attractive.

In terms of Alarielle + Durthu together, I'd be concerned, even though they're an incredible tandem. It doesn't seem you'd have enough elsewhere to have an optimal general-purpose competitive list, but I could be wrong!

It's a scary list! Are you worried at all about your inability to set up more woods? I guess you can deploy the full 3 bases worth at the beginning, but the trees seem to provide a lot of manoeuvrability. My dream is to sit 6 hunters with Greatbows on a woods and just teleport them around different woods to avoid bad engagements.  Though reading @Forestreveries battle reports it seems like they might not need to avoid fights at all.

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On 8/14/2016 at 7:18 AM, scrubyandwells said:

Rob Symes did some cool conversions with bits from Celestial Hurricanums (and possibly a Celestant Prime...) incorporated into the look of a few Treelord Ancients / Treelords. "Treelord Hurricanums" is a very good look, it turns out.

Saw WIP's of these on Twitter as well as a glance at his models tray from @Ben's video from the event, but I haven't actually seen any pics of @Rufio's finished Treelord/Hurricanums anywhere. Perhaps I'm just not looking at the right threads/galleries? I'm really curious how the finished models look!

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Hi guys!

So, I've posted a lot on the Facebook page (as Frank Krifka) but since I'm on a major Facebook break at the moment I still needed to get my AoS theory fix in! So i'd like to share my thoughts on everybody's favorite unit, the tree revenants. 

We've thrown a lot of things around on the Facebook page, trying to sort out the best way to use the unit. They aren't particularly sturdy, nor do they hit terribly hard. They move really really well, being able to use their waypipes ability to pop around the board, and their martial memories ability means they can often revolt hat lone 1-2 that would prevent them from landing a charge. 

The problem here is that while they can easily get places, they don't do terribly much when they get there. As mentioned above, they don't hit to hard, they don't really take a punch well and being single wound models, they don't benefit from straight up healing. I've theorized that they might be good at surprising lone wizards/warmachines or snagging backfield objectives. But again, if anything serious gets to them, they'll have the same problems as a front-line unit. The interesting thing about Tree-Revenants is that they are battleline in a Sylvaneth Army. This seems at odds, since dryads are so much more effective in combat. Why would we want to fill up our 3 battelline units (@2000pts) with sub-par choices?  

Then, in a thread regarding the new beast claw raiders Frostlord damage output, it occurred to me: everything does something well. Maybe what Tree revenants do well is is die. I think they are meant to be used as Chaff and the best part is they're battleline chaff.

There are plenty of models in AoS that get charge benefits: Either +1 to wound, or mortal wounds on the charge. As theory hammer shows, its a bad thing to be on the receiving end of a charge from a frost lord. Between mortal wounds on the charge, and a metric F@$kton of attacks, Frost lords eat through whatever they land a charge on. Sylvaneth wildwoods or not. The perfect counter to this is a group of 5 tree revenants positioned at the outside edge of a Sylvaneth wildwood (at least 3.5 inches away to avoid a free pile-in) with a suitable unit waiting to counter-charge. Because of his Earth-Shattering charge ability, he cannot refuse to charge. This not only robs the Frostlord of his deadly charge, but also gets him within range of the wildwood for the "roused to wrath" ability. It is very likely the tree-revenants will be wiped out in the ensuing combat phase, leaving the path free for you to optimize your counter charge placement (especially if you're using Kurnoth Hunters and planning to root them.)

Tree-revanents ability to move around the board, also means they can pop onto the backlines and tie up choppy units for a turn, giving you time to get your positioning right with the rest of your army, throw down an additional wildwood, or capture an objective.  

Also, Dryads are 120 pts for 10. If you are taking dryads, it makes sense to take them in groups of 20 for the +1 save. That means an effective unit of dryads will cost you 240 pts. Three groups of 20 (to fill your battelline requirements) will cost you 720 pts. That doesn't leave a tremendous amount of points for filling out the rest of your army. For less than half that cost, you can take three groups of 5 tree revenants. This would be most effective for an army that wants to squeeze in an extra tree lord, another group of hunters or a multi-wound model army that benefits more from Alarielle's healing spells (since 60 dryads are all 1 wound models and will not benefit from healing.)

Or of course, you can take a balanced approach. 20 dryads and 2 groups of 5 revenants clocks in a 440 pts. Still almost 300 pts cheaper and probably more effective in a  situation where you have to face multiple opponents with the same list. 

Thoughts? 

-F

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On 8/14/2016 at 5:05 PM, MidasKiss said:

I might try something out down the line, even though the unit is expensive in points the model actually isn't that bad. At what stage do you think it becomes worth getting one over just getting more Kurnoth hunters and etc?

It's a scary list! Are you worried at all about your inability to set up more woods? I guess you can deploy the full 3 bases worth at the beginning, but the trees seem to provide a lot of manoeuvrability. My dream is to sit 6 hunters with Greatbows on a woods and just teleport them around different woods to avoid bad engagements.  Though reading @Forestreveries battle reports it seems like they might not need to avoid fights at all.

Re: adding a Hurricanum, I'd say in most cases, it's always better to add a Hurricanum. :) In the referenced 2K list, the +1 to hit alone for 9 Greatbow Kurnoths would be amazing, and even one Hurricanum has excellent mortal-wound output.

Yeah I'd like to playtest to see if the inability to set up more Wyldwoods will be an issue. In theory, the benefit doesn't seem worth the cost you'll incur to the list.

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Tree Revenants cannot be cost effective as chaff. 

I think what they are meant to do is act as either assassins by taking out artillery crew etc. or shock troops (against softish targets like archers or fast cavalry). They don't have the durability to slog it out with blocks of even mediocre 2 wound models.

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Tree revenants are probably the most cost effective chaff in the entire generals handbook, with the exception of great eagles from the wood elves compendium (a 60pt flyer with essentially the same number of wounds). 

Chaff are designed to die. They aren't anvils who are meant to slug it out and survive mostly intact. Chaff are essentially throw away units with high mobility that are designed to hold a higher value target in place, OR to take the brunt of an assault, absorbing 10-15 wounds that might decimate a larger unit. If there are multiple combats, they can easily peel of a couple of wounds, but their real utility lies in tying up nasty charging units. 

Sylvaneth do not posses any other units that work as chaff (that allow a sylvaneth allegiance). Dryads are best as tarpits and relatively expensive if at optimal unit size. They have some mobility, but to be effective they need to be anchored in wildwoods. Kurnoth hunters and freemen certainly aren't chaff, and treekin are essentially anvils. 

Besides, with so many ways to drop new wildwood on the table and use the realm roots, Kurnoth hunters and treelords make much more durable, and killy, shock troops. A group 5 tree revenants might be able to take out a backfield wizard as well, but that isn't anywhere near as useful as tying up a Frostlord, or a unit of varaguard for a turn allowing you to arrange your activations in the most useful way. Besides, If I was playing across from a  sylvaneth player with tree revenants, you'd be damn sure I'd bubble wrap those backfield wizards with something that could put out a few wounds if necessary. And as I mentioned before, its wouldn't take much to turn those revenant "shock troops" into wood chips.  

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4 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Tree revenants are probably the most cost effective chaff in the entire generals handbook, with the exception of great eagles from the wood elves compendium (a 60pt flyer with essentially the same number of wounds). 

Chaff are designed to die. They aren't anvils who are meant to slug it out and survive mostly intact. Chaff are essentially throw away units with high mobility that are designed to hold a higher value target in place, OR to take the brunt of an assault, absorbing 10-15 wounds that might decimate a larger unit. If there are multiple combats, they can easily peel of a couple of wounds, but their real utility lies in tying up nasty charging units. 

Sylvaneth do not posses any other units that work as chaff (that allow a sylvaneth allegiance). Dryads are best as tarpits and relatively expensive if at optimal unit size. They have some mobility, but to be effective they need to be anchored in wildwoods. Kurnoth hunters and freemen certainly aren't chaff, and treekin are essentially anvils. 

Besides, with so many ways to drop new wildwood on the table and use the realm roots, Kurnoth hunters and treelords make much more durable, and killy, shock troops. A group 5 tree revenants might be able to take out a backfield wizard as well, but that isn't anywhere near as useful as tying up a Frostlord, or a unit of varaguard for a turn allowing you to arrange your activations in the most useful way. Besides, If I was playing across from a  sylvaneth player with tree revenants, you'd be damn sure I'd bubble wrap those backfield wizards with something that could put out a few wounds if necessary. And as I mentioned before, its wouldn't take much to turn those revenant "shock troops" into wood chips.  

I don't disagree that the revenants can be used as chaf; vs the charging ogors 5 wounds or 20 wounds will probably die so why not get the 5 for 100 points.

However, I do think that the dyads are a little better as chaf than you are making out, depending on who you are versing and the type of terrain. If we're saying 20 dryads for general purposes is ideal, I would probably agree. However, most people would probably argue that an ideal number of revenants in general would be 10 or more (or 2 x 5), so you can actually kill those heroes on the back line rather than charging in and fizzing out. If you read through this thread and others you must have seen the many tales of the revenants not doing anything on the charge.

So if we are talking 5 tree revenants I think 10 dryads is the better comparison.

Taking 10 dryads for 120 and stringing them out might be a lot more useful than the 5 revenants in some cases, depending on what you need to prevent them getting to. If you can't get woods out, they are a lot more limited in mobility than the revenants. But from my reading and experience of the ogors, they will probably charge you turn 1 so mobility might not be that important. If there is a narrow point they need to charge with, stick 5 revenants for 100. If there's open space or they could curve their charge around revenants then string out some dryads so they can't get past.

Vs other armies, the dryads I think are better chaf. I don't quite see the difference between tarpits and chaff, other than tarpits being better at the job. Is the hope for tarpits that they don't die by the end for objective purposes?

Glad the discussions back, I was starting to get worried ;)

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7 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Hi guys!

So, I've posted a lot on the Facebook page (as Frank Krifka) but since I'm on a major Facebook break at the moment I still needed to get my AoS theory fix in! So i'd like to share my thoughts on everybody's favorite unit, the tree revenants. 

[...]

Hi @Mirage8112: Awesome post. Thank you! Greatly appreciate your insight on Fb as well. Lots of great food for thought here. I'll follow up soon.

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3 hours ago, MidasKiss said:

So if we are talking 5 tree revenants I think 10 dryads is the better comparison.

Taking 10 dryads for 120 and stringing them out might be a lot more useful than the 5 revenants... 

...they could curve their charge around revenants then string out some dryads so they can't get past.

 

Agree with all these points. 

 

Even 10 Dryads will have a much larger footprint, allowing them to screen more of your units, or if you are worried about fliers  they can spread out in layers to retain the 3" between your front line your units you would like to screen to prevent engagement and offer nowhere to land.

Furthermore I actually believe that if screening is the role you want these units to play Dryads are actually more mobile than Tree Revenants.  

Tree Revenants are capable of jumping to Board Edges or Wyldwoods As long as 9" away from enemy, which is quite restrictive. Dryads being 7" move I feel is probably going to serve better at getting between yours and your opponents units, and won't slow down the advance of your other units.

If you're relying on waypipes to do this then you could be forcing yourself to put your Wyldwoods in sub-optimal positions.

 

I think if you're trying to decide which to put in your army, a lot of it comes down to list writing. I often find myself with 100 Pts left, needing another Battleline unit but unable to find the 20 points to drop to squeeze in another unit of Dryads. 

Another point it comes down to is your warscroll / Wargrove battalions. This often dictates the Battleline units you'll want. If your list is using Gnarlroot then you are required to take Household which contains Tree Revenants, whereas if you're playing  Winterleaf you're required to take Forest Folk and there you have your 3 Battleline units in Dryads. 

For me the durability hasn't been too much of an issue tbh as I have been electing to hold my battleine units back as long as possible and have them emerge from the Hidden Enclaves only when I need them to start scoring and I will aim to have secured the area I want them in and placed a Wyldwood there by that point. 

Up until then Kurnoth Hunters with Greatbows will be sat on any objectives in my half with the more aggressive units (Scythe Hunters, Treelords and Alarielle / Drycha etc.) moving up to clear the enemy's. 

I realise this doesnt relate too much to the role of the tree Revenants themselves, but hopefully does show that with different lists and play styles you can still get value out of them. 

 

For or me its always going to be Dryads unless points or Wargrove Battalions dictate otherwise. 

 

 

Aaron

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3 hours ago, MidasKiss said:

I don't disagree that the revenants can be used as chaf; vs the charging ogors 5 wounds or 20 wounds will probably die so why not get the 5 for 100 points.

However, I do think that the dyads are a little better as chaf than you are making out, depending on who you are versing and the type of terrain. If we're saying 20 dryads for general purposes is ideal, I would probably agree. However, most people would probably argue that an ideal number of revenants in general would be 10 or more (or 2 x 5), so you can actually kill those heroes on the back line rather than charging in and fizzing out. If you read through this thread and others you must have seen the many tales of the revenants not doing anything on the charge.

So if we are talking 5 tree revenants I think 10 dryads is the better comparison.

Taking 10 dryads for 120 and stringing them out might be a lot more useful than the 5 revenants in some cases, depending on what you need to prevent them getting to. If you can't get woods out, they are a lot more limited in mobility than the revenants. But from my reading and experience of the ogors, they will probably charge you turn 1 so mobility might not be that important. If there is a narrow point they need to charge with, stick 5 revenants for 100. If there's open space or they could curve their charge around revenants then string out some dryads so they can't get past.

Vs other armies, the dryads I think are better chaf. I don't quite see the difference between tarpits and chaff, other than tarpits being better at the job. Is the hope for tarpits that they don't die by the end for objective purposes?

Glad the discussions back, I was starting to get worried ;)


You raise fair points, but before discuss them I should point out the differences between chaff, tarpits and anvils. I'm sorry to sideline into game theory, but it's core to how I see units like the revenants place on the battlefield or how to justify their inclusion in a list. Really, the following terms all are differentiated by what type of enemies they are meant to handle and what type of models make up the unit. 

Tar-pits are designed to hold a unit in place over multiple turns. Their role in the battle is to capture and hold a high damage targets without needing too much assistance from other units to survive. Often the best use of a tarpit is to trap a unit that you don't know what else to do with, or when it's a threat, but not the highest priority. Usually in points cost, tar pits are relatively cheap allowing them to be big, often max-sized, or to have a relatively easy way of absorbing wounds. 

Anvils however, are there to hold a unit in place for a single turn or two without taking too much damage in return. Often they are elite units that can put out a reasonable amount of wounds after taking the initial hit. They are often used in conjunction with a "hammer" unit to maximize the damage that can be caused by your killy but fragile units. 

Chaff are different than both, and it's role is more specialized. Chaff are cheap units that are designed to be lost, often in a short period of time. A "sacrificial unit". One of the best use of chaff is to direct your opponents movements, or rob a heavy hitter of his initiative. The term is originally a WHFB term where units have facings and charge arcs, but I think it has a place in AoS too. 

And these three above also fit into the wider role of units in a game being namely: Tank, DPS, Utility. 

And all units fit into one of those three categories and will often have roles in all three at the same time. For example, Durthu can act early a damage causing unit (DPS) , but can also take a few hits and benefits from healing spells (Tank) and can even tank wounds for other characters nearby on a 4+ (utility). 

Now, as I said, your answer above was fair, but your trying to use tree revenants as tar-pits, which they are not. They can't soak wounds indefinitely (having only  1 wound and a not all that fantastic save.) They'll be more expensive in units of 10, 200 pts vs 120 pts for dryads. So theya aren't really for "holding" anything in place for more than a turn. I've had a group of 12 dryads hold a stardrake in place for 4 turns. I would not take my chances with tree revenants in that same situation. 

But in this case is there still a role for tree revenants? yes. As I mentioned before as a chaff unit. I'll use 2 examples here. Both cases in which you could use tree revenants as chaff.

The first scenario would be having a unit that puts out a large amount of damage, like Skarbrand. 

Skarbrand puts out nearly double the wounds if he did not attack in either of the previous battlerounds. which means you have to get into combat with him with something he can destroy, while reliably being able to attack him the next turn and hopefully, kill him in one round. In this situation you can't tarpit him, because he puts out so much damage he'd chew through whatever was thrown at him. Likewise, you could hope to throw a Durthu, or hunters at him, but depending on the other combats happening on the board you might not want to risk him going first. If I was a demon player I'd gladly sacrifice something marginally good from my army to get a chance of taking durthu off the field. 

In the above case, revenants are perfect. Not only are they perfect to feed Skarbrand and calm him down, but when your opponent positions skarbrand for a charge next turn, you can way pipe your revenants into position presenting him with a difficult choice. He can either retreat and try to reposition, or take the bait and eat the expendable 100 pts unit, only to get charged by durthu next round and only be able to attack with half his attacks. 

Here's another example. A lot of units in AoS do extra damage on the charge, like the frostlord on a stonehorn. doing d6 mortal wounds on the charge is enough to take a 10 man unit of dryads down to 1/2 strength even before making it's actual attacks. Theres just no way to tarpit him. But, with revenants, you can easily absorb that charge (and he must charge, so it can't be avoided) and leave you in a good position to charge it next turn having robbed him of his D6 mortal wounds. (hopefully you'll also be able to pull  few wounds off with the kurnoth hunters sitting behind your lines at max range. Since charging the revenants will give you a free turn of shooting before he makes contact with anything important.)

And while not making the ultimate sacrifice, they'll do really nicely holding objectives. It looks like the tourney scenarios you get points base don how long you can hold an objective. The ability to swoop across the board turn 1 and hold a far off objective and then pop back when they're needed to act as an army "crumple zone" is something dryads can't do.

And hell, when dryads are out of a wood roaming around the table is about the worst thing you can do with them. They should be on or near a wood at all times. If your taking dryads, you really should be building your lists with that in mind. 

 

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Sylvaneth do not posses any other units that work as chaff (that allow a sylvaneth allegiance). Dryads are best as tarpits and relatively expensive if at optimal unit size. They have some mobility, but to be effective they need to be anchored in wildwoods. Kurnoth hunters and freemen certainly aren't chaff, and treekin are essentially anvils. 

Well you're right that Sylvaneth don't have much choice when it comes to potential candidates for chaff. 

However chucking away models that are the same cost per model and per wound as Executioners is a sure way to lose.

Real chaff are Zombros (10 for 60), Clanrats, Giant Rats and the like, which are significantly cheaper than Revanants. You can also circumvent a unit of 5 models more easily than 10.

Edited by Nico
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1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

 


You raise fair points, but before discuss them I should point out the differences between chaff, tarpits and anvils. I'm sorry to sideline into game theory, but it's core to how I see units like the revenants place on the battlefield or how to justify their inclusion in a list. Really, the following terms all are differentiated by what type of enemies they are meant to handle and what type of models make up the unit...

 

Thanks Frank for explaining the terminology for me. I think I didn't explain my point very well, but I learnt a lot from your reply regardless. 

7 hours ago, MidasKiss said:

I don't disagree that the revenants can be used as chaf; vs the charging ogors 5 wounds or 20 wounds will probably die so why not get the 5 for 100 points.

As I said right at the beginning, but probably didn't express clearly enough, is that I do agree that Tree-Revenants can make good chaff. Especially in the above case and the example of yours where you're in a situation where, no matter what, your whole unit is going to get destroyed on the charge. To clarify, I am not trying to treat them as a tarpit; when I was talking about them being ideal in higher numbers I was talking about them as assassins. Assassins are seemingly different from the anvil, tarpit and chaff you outline above - not durable like an anvil, but enough to take out a utility character). A lot of people  seem to feel like this was the role that fitted their design, but that they weren't given the power for the job.

So, so far I think we agree.

The main problem I had with your post before was not with your description of the revenants but with your description of the Dryads - "Sylvaneth do not posses any other units [other than revenants] that work as chaff". I agree that to tarpit with them, you need higher numbers. However, I think at 10 models they can serve as a good chaff in situations. For the argument, see my post and @Forestreveries post above, but essentially when it's better to get the unit footprint to avoid charges moving around a unit. Perhaps you need to have a chaff unit strung out to block charge onto two different heroes, perhaps your list needs dryads but you want to run them with low point investment.

What is it about 10 dryads that you think can't serve as chaf in these situations? 

Perhaps I misinterpreted your comment quoted above. 

Thanks for the great discussion.

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3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

   
And hell, when dryads are out of a wood roaming around the table is about the worst thing you can do with them. They should be on or near a wood at all times. If your taking dryads, you really should be building your lists with that in mind. 

 

I fee like you are arguing against yourself a little here. 

 

As far as I can follow you were saying that Dryads were more suited to what you describe as 'tar pit' situations, presumably because of their defensive abilities? 

A few of us have suggested that they are still better 'chaff' than Revenants on account of more, cheaper bodies. 

You're saying that Dryads need to benefit from their additional defensive abilities obtained from large units and Wyldwoods ...whilst simultaneously saying that the more expensive Tree Revenants are better suited to this "chaff" role *because* they lack those (optional) abilities?

Seems a little backwards to me tbh.  

...They could just stand outside Wyldwoods in smaller units and (other than being 10 models instead of 5) they're as easy to kill as Tree Revenants. 

If anything, for me, it reinforces that Dryads would be a better choice due to being adaptable to whichever role you need them to play. 

 

Also I can't find the quote but I'm sure somebody said earlier that Great Eagles make great chaff units, which was certainly true in past editions.

However in AOS you can just charge past them provided you roll high enough. Their footprint is way too small to screen anything effectively. 

 

I'm not meaning to disregard your opinions here, I do see some of your points and it's been an interesting night discussion so far, but I feel like you are trying to polish turds here. 

 

Tree Revenants IMO, are just sub-optimal.

They will still see play.

They may assassinate a stranded wizard, they may capture an uncontested objective, they may die screening a Treelord and allow him to kill a Stonehorn in return, but honestly, I don't think they are the most effective unit we have at any of those things.

 

Aaron

 

(also agree with @Nico that dedicating what I consider to be over pointed units to dying does not seem like a winning strategy in the first place. In my competitive games so far I have tried (and pretty darn well succeeded) in giving up as few of my models as possible)

Edited by Forestreveries
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