scrubyandwells

Let's Chat Sylvaneth

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1 hour ago, Trokair said:

Thank you Forestreveries

Would it be a good idea to have one unit of Great Bow armed Hunters, just for some ranged support (and model variety).

What is the benefit of a Treeman Ancient over a normal Treeman? The unique spell only seems good if an opponent makes the mistake of going near some Woods, which I assume most will avoid when facing a Sylvaneth host due to all the other shenanigans related to Woods that we have.

Talking of woods, how many to people normally bring with them to a battle?  Also when making more wyldwoods how many citadel woods do most people use? One, two or all three?  

If many are need for decent games then that is quite an additional chunk of money need on top of the actual army.

As discussed earlier in this thread, my current Kurnoth Hunters are armed with Greatbows and I find myself wishing they were scythes in most games I play, and I would say that was especially true in the Free Spirits battalion, however the Bows are certainly not a bad option to go for by any means. You could take 3x bows and 6x spears or even have larger units if you preferred and your army would still be hard as nails. 

 

The Ancient is so much better because of the ability to cast and I bind spells. Mystic Shield is one of the most used spells in the game I would say, and a Treeman giving himself a 2+ rerolling 1's is one of the most survivable models in the game. 

 

Also so if your army consists of only Sylvaneth models your wizards will gain access to another spell which you can choose from the Deepwood Lore in Battletome: Sylvaneth. 

Another benefit of taking an all Sylvaneth army is access to Artefacts, which can improve your Treelords survivability, hitting power, or magical ability again chosen by you. 

A popular one is  Briarsheath which enforces a -1 to hit roll penalty on all attacks against the bearer. Combined with the Treelords' Stomp ability this goes a long way to making them yet more survivable. 

 

With regards to Sylvaneth Wyldwoods, I have been placing 1 Citadel Wood per casting of Verdant Blessing (or other method of summoning woods) apart from one time when it was beneficial for me to have the area of 2. I haven't felt handicapped at not placing all 3 potential available. 

 

Modt games i have have been placing an average of 3-4 Citadel woods. Perhaps other people will have entered their lists more around the forests and will have a higher average than that. 

 

One final point is that you can factor in the Wyldwoods own Roused By Magic rule makes every casting attempt potentially do more damage if you get your positioning right. 

 

Have a read of this thread from start to finish to see some more in depth discussion of these points :)

 

Aaron

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You can make your own woods to cut down on costs.  I bought a single citadel wood off ebay and am going to use it to trace the footprint onto foam board and use some cheap scenery trees to make a fairly identical replica (though less visually appealing, obviously)  

 

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23 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Hi @MidasKiss that looks like a fun list to try out. 

I'd be a little concerned about its lack of punch. All else equal, the only one who's likely to do much damage in combat, outside of potential damage from spells, is the Treelord Ancient. Dryads don't tend to do much in combat, especially due to their lack of rend. Tree Revenants can do some damage, if they swing first on a charge, but you'd only be getting 12 attacks with them, which would be (on average) 6 hits and then 4 wounds at -1 rend. If you can get a charge off with 10 of them, though, and take advantage of their 6" pile in, that'd be up to 22 attacks, which will be pretty strong against most units.

Would definitely recommend trying out some 1,000pt lists with at least 3 Kurnoth Hunters with scythes. I suspect they're one of the best buys in the game right now at 180pts. They're quite resilient and can dish out a ton of damage.

I was running the below 1,000pt list last night and had some success against Seraphon:

Treelord Ancient (300)
  Gnarled Warrior (Command Trait)
  Briarsheath (Artefact of Power)
Branchwych (100)
Dryads x10 (120)
Dryads x10 (120)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Scythes)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Scythes)

The Dryads served as decent tarpits + models for objectives and the Kurnoth Hunters covered their flanks. The list works better when it can stay together. Things could get rough if it has to be split up much.

Thanks for the advice! I can easily get to 1020 by just swapping the Branchwynch for the Kurnoth hunters, depending on how strict the 1000 points was. They are my favourite looking models so I'd love to work some in. I have only played a random game in store with their models but the dryads near a woods, with their over 12 model rule and mystic shield were pretty fun with a 2 + save. Kurnoth hunters would be super fun with the Verdurous Harmony spell, bringing back one model per cast could be really fun. I think 1500 points could be a really fun step between the 1000 and 2000 points, I could just add some Kurnoth hunters to the above list. I can't wait to see what the stores around me run!

I'd also thought about a fun but only situational Outcasts army:
Drycha (280)
5 Spite revenants (100)
5 Spite revenants (100)
5 Spite revenants (100)

5 Tree revenants (100)
5 Tree revenants (100)
3 Kurnoth hunters (180)
total 1000

Pity the Spite revenants seem a little lacking. I love the look of the outcasts.

 

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I've been theory-hammering 1,000 point lists over the last week for a tournament I have coming up in September. 

The key factors from the tournament pack are:

  1. 1,000 pt General's Handbook
  2. 4x4 tables
  3. 3 randomly generated scenarios from GH
  4. Trees can be moved, for ease of game-play, but models can't pass through the hole where the tree stood.
  5. Allegiance abilities and artefacts can be chosen before each game (and I presume spells can be too).

The builds for me largely fall into avoidance or combat.  I'll set the lists out and give some comments about the pros and cons from my perspective.

Magic and Avoidance

Treeman Ancient (300) - Gift of Ghyran, Ranu's Lamentiri, Regrowth/Reaping
Branchwych (100) - Circlet, Unleash Spites/Regrowth/Dwellers (if versus hordes)
Branchwych (100) - Unleash Spites/Regrowth/Dwellers/Verdant Blessing
20 Tree Revenants (400)
Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

*A possible permutation would be switching 20 Tree Revenants (400) to 5 Tree Revenants and 20 dryads (340) giving me 5 more models but less manoeuvrability.  The dryads are stronger with lots of woods of course.

The aim of the force is to avoid combat, generate woods, heal units and rely on MW spells and the abilities of the Wyldwoods to do damage from a distance.  The Tree Revanants would just be contesting objectives.  As you can see I haven't settled on the distribution of the spells across the units (I know there is limited use in taking multiples of the same spell given the rule of one).  I would take first turn in order to throw up as many woods as possible in the first turn before the board becomes to cluttered.

The limitations are a lack of combat punch, small tables (meaning combat armies can close quickly, especially with double turns) and only 23 models.

Combat

Treeman Ancient (300) - Warsinger, Circlet, Reaping
Branchwych (100) - Regrowth
6 Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes (360)
20 Dryads (240)

*The variation on this would be to drop the Branchwych and take a Spirit of Durthu instead of the Treeman Ancient but that would be very much all eggs in one basket.

My concern with the combat force is I don't know, without a lot of testing, how it stacks up against more traditional combat armies (for example, IronJawz).  Is there any point trying to go toe to toe with a combat army?  Also, as there are no battalions, then I only get one magic item and am likely to have more drops than my opponents and not be able to decide on the first turn.

Any thoughts?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Antipodean7 said:

Combat

Treeman Ancient (300) - Warsinger, Circlet, Reaping
Branchwych (100) - Regrowth
6 Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes (360)
20 Dryads (240)

*The variation on this would be to drop the Branchwych and take a Spirit of Durthu instead of the Treeman Ancient but that would be very much all eggs in one basket.

My concern with the combat force is I don't know, without a lot of testing, how it stacks up against more traditional combat armies (for example, IronJawz).  Is there any point trying to go toe to toe with a combat army?  Also, as there are no battalions, then I only get one magic item and am likely to have more drops than my opponents and not be able to decide on the first turn.

Any thoughts?

Awesome post. I'll follow up soon on your other list. Re: the Combat one:

In games where you can keep your force together, I think the list could stand up decently vs combat armies (although I haven't had a chance to face Ironjawz). 

I ran almost the exact same list last weekend in two games vs two Seraphon armies. The first game was Take and Hold. The Seraphon player had an Old Blood and Scar-Veteran on Carnosaurs and 5 Saurus Knights x3 with the Firelance Starhost. The second game was Border War. He had an Engine of the Gods, Troglodon, 5 Saurus Knights x3, 10 Saurus Warriors x1, and a Saurus Oldblood.

In the first game, he ran at me. Two units of 10 Dryads anchored the middle with the T-Ancient right behind to ensure Groundshaking Stomp could benefit most of the Dryads. The two units of 3 Kurnoth were close by on the left and right. Both flanks and the middle withstood the Seraphon's surge, and the game was won with relative ease (the dice were also unkind to him and kind to me). 

Summary: Dryads, T-Ancient, and Branchwych held the middle against the Carnosaurs and 5 Saurus Knights, while the Kurnoth closed in from the flanks to finish them after having dispatched the other Saurus Knights.

The Border-War game was more difficult because it required spreading out a low-model-count list. In the first half, he was in control of the border and his own territory. Once again he was more the aggressor and went way up on victory points. Eventually, though, I was able to win the attrition battle due to spellcasting (especially Awakening the Wood), the T-Ancient's resilience, and the Kurnoth's scythe work (...they never seem to clock out). The game finally turned in the fifth round. 

In both games, instead of Warsinger and The Silverwood Circlet, I had Gnarled Warrior and Briarsheath to increase the T-Ancient's resilience. Since the Seraphon didn't have anything at -2 rend, the T-Ancient was difficult to damage. With that said, I love The Reaping and The Silverwood Circlet combo. If you keep the T-Ancient out of dangerous situations, you could probably get away with taking only Gnarled Warrior and not the Briarsheath; but I think Gnarled Warrior is more valuable than Warsinger. 

Edited by scrubyandwells
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1 hour ago, Antipodean7 said:

Magic and Avoidance

Treeman Ancient (300) - Gift of Ghyran, Ranu's Lamentiri, Regrowth/Reaping
Branchwych (100) - Circlet, Unleash Spites/Regrowth/Dwellers (if versus hordes)
Branchwych (100) - Unleash Spites/Regrowth/Dwellers/Verdant Blessing
20 Tree Revenants (400)
Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

*A possible permutation would be switching 20 Tree Revenants (400) to 5 Tree Revenants and 20 dryads (340) giving me 5 more models but less manoeuvrability.  The dryads are stronger with lots of woods of course.

The aim of the force is to avoid combat, generate woods, heal units and rely on MW spells and the abilities of the Wyldwoods to do damage from a distance.  The Tree Revanants would just be contesting objectives.  As you can see I haven't settled on the distribution of the spells across the units (I know there is limited use in taking multiples of the same spell given the rule of one).  I would take first turn in order to throw up as many woods as possible in the first turn before the board becomes to cluttered.

The limitations are a lack of combat punch, small tables (meaning combat armies can close quickly, especially with double turns) and only 23 models.

I think this is a really cool, fun list, but it could have a high degree of difficulty. As someone who struggles with in-game tactics, it seems like the kind of list that would be beyond my personal grasp at this stage.

In general, it looks like a list that's going to be better in theory (although I could be quite wrong). It seems susceptible to getting punched in the face and not having anything to take a punch and punch back (except the Treelord Ancient, but he's missing e.g. Gnarled Warrior and/or Briarsheath). 

There's a lot of speed in AoS. I suspect the list will struggle with avoiding combat, and surviving combat.

At the same time, it's exactly the kind of list that deserves playtesting to see what's possible. Maybe it is possible (vs a variety of armies) to do enough damage with magic + Wyldwood shenanigans while avoiding getting hammered.

Good luck mate. :)

Edited by scrubyandwells

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I think The biggest thing holding back an all Outcast force is that;

Between Drycha and Spite Revenants there are a lot of ways to play with opponents bravery, but not all that much punch (especially when your opponent realises Drycha needs to die). 

You can reduce your opponents bravery all you like but I feel like you need some non outcast support (Treelords and Kurnoth Hunters) to actually force those bravery tests to happen.  

That said, I really want to see somebody make an outcast themed army with some sort of sinister conversions to the rest of the force to show the well... evil nature.

Aaron

Edited by Forestreveries
Quoted wrong message. Oops!
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So I have the Rain of Stars one day tournament coming up this Saturday; I have purchased, built, painted and based the following army for that;

Alarielle the Everqueen (620)
- Regrowth (Deepwood Spell Lore)
- General (no Command Trait)

Drycha Hamadreth (280) 
- Verdant Blessing (Deepwood Spell Lore)

Spirit of Durthu (400)
- Briarsheath (Artefact)

Branchwych (100)
- Verdant Blessing (Deepwood Spell Lore)

20 Dryads (240)

5 Tree Revenants (100)
- Enchanted Blades (Champion)

6 Kurnoth Hunters (360)
- Kurnoth Greatbows


Total: 2100

 

All games are 2000 points with a 1k sideboard but I didn't have the painting time to dedicate to finish my Treelord Ancients or any more Kurnoth Hunters, so I basically get to choose between the Branchwych and Tree Revenants game by game. 

 

I have an Archaon led Tzeentch army first round as a grudge, the player is new to the game but I still have no idea how I am going to deal with Archaon!

Anybody had any experience with that? Like I said the guy is new to AOS but I'm genuinely struggling to picture a way to not be smashed by Archaon aha!

 

Ive been looking at non Alarielle Lists I'd like to run after this event and have come up with the following that I want to try asap.

Free Spirits Battalion 

Spirit of Durthu

6 Kurnoth Hunters 

- Scythes

3 Kurnoth Hunters 

- Greatbows

3 Kurnoth Hunters

- Greatbows

Gnarlroot Wargrove

 - Household Wargrove

Treelord Ancient

Branchwych 

20 Dryads

5 Tree Revenants

2000pts

It feels well rounded and pretty competitive to me but will have to get back to you all with feedback once I've played it. Items and spells undecided yet  

Likewise I hope to do a run down of all my Rain of Stars games and reflect on what I think went well or badly in each game. Perhaps I'll start a new thread for that, unless people would like to see it here?

 

Aaron

Edited by Forestreveries
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Anybody had any experience with that? Like I said the guy is new to AOS but I'm genuinely struggling to picture a way to not be smashed by Archaon aha!

Probably go for the ignore Archaon and focus on killing other units approach (e.g. Gaunt summoner or other casters if he is going Tzeentch Wizards). You can tank him fairly well with the Hunters (4+ rerollable saves against his pathetic -1 rend), if you can mystic shield them, they will save 75% of his attacks.

Alternatively you can roll the dice and go all in. Alarielle is well placed to smash his teeth in provided you get the charge. If he has put any buffs to wound on Archaon (Juggerlords or Plague Priests) then don't go for this approach (as he will Slayer of Kings her off the table).  

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5 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

Likewise I hope to do a run down of all my Rain of Stars games and reflect on what I think went well or badly in each game. Perhaps I'll start a new thread for that, unless people would like to see it here?

Hey @Forestreveries would love to see a run down of your Rain of Stars games. Excited to hear how your list does. It looks a little light on model count, but if you can do a lot of damage while doing just enough objective-wise to stay in the fight, it could be a good list for taking out more of your opponents' points and claiming minor victories.

Good luck!

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5 hours ago, Nico said:

Probably go for the ignore Archaon and focus on killing other units approach (e.g. Gaunt summoner or other casters if he is going Tzeentch Wizards). You can tank him fairly well with the Hunters (4+ rerollable saves against his pathetic -1 rend), if you can mystic shield them, they will save 75% of his attacks.

Alternatively you can roll the dice and go all in. Alarielle is well placed to smash his teeth in provided you get the charge. If he has put any buffs to wound on Archaon (Juggerlords or Plague Priests) then don't go for this approach (as he will Slayer of Kings her off the table).  

Good points. As long as Archaon requires two 6's for instant kill, you could consider making Durthu the General and giving him Gnarled Warrior so that he ignores -1 rend, which would make it extra difficult for Archaon to hurt him (Gnarled Warrior, Briarsheath, and the potential Groundshaking Stomp = awesome resilience except vs mortal wounds). I'm not sure, though, if Gnarled Warrior on Durthu + Inspiring Presence is worth losing Alarielle's command ability. Even though her command ability is only once per game, it could make a significant difference.

Edited by scrubyandwells
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5 hours ago, Nico said:

Alternatively you can roll the dice and go all in. Alarielle is well placed to smash his teeth in provided you get the charge. If he has put any buffs to wound on Archaon (Juggerlords or Plague Priests) then don't go for this approach (as he will Slayer of Kings her off the table).  

I don't think this ends well for Alarielle at all!  

I think avoiding / ignoring him is the best plan of action, perhaps going in if I can get some damage on with the Hunters' Greatbows and Magic, but I feel like any spells directed at him are wasted :/

the way his Everchosen ability is worded even spells that don't target him directly (such as The Reaping) Can still be ignored by him on a 4+

No idea what's in the rest of the list tbf, but I think whatever it is, it'll be easier to tackle than he will!

i think I will hold my Battleline units in the Hidden Enclaves and try to take Archaons force from around him wth my heavy hitters and ranged attacks, then try to drop my units on the objectives and hope he doesn't have enough left to spread out and take them back from me

 

Aaron

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Thanks for the comments guys.

@scrubyandwells

  1. I can see the combat list struggling with some of the scenarios through not having enough models.  For example, I'll need to keep the 6 hunters in one unit in order to capture objectives in the scenario requiring units of 5 models or more.
  2. Assuming your units are deployed 9" from the enemy (thanks to the hidden paths), then Warsinger improves your chance of a successful charge (assuming you haven't rolled a 6 for the paths) by 14% (from 28 to 42%).  However, I agree that as you are still more likely to fail the charge than succeed, then it is not worth building a list around a first turn charge after the paths.  Therefore, defence is key (and should be fine with the thicket ability of the hunters).
  3. I've been weighing up the benefits of "protection" vs "healing" and think I agree with you that the protection (whether ignore -1 rend, -1 to hit, or +1 save) are better than gaining 1W or D3W per hero phase.  Thinking about shooting gunlines, the -1 to hit Briarsheath may be a must-take item given the risk of losing the Ancient to a hail of arrows.... EDIT: However, the modifiers don't help you with MW spam, while the healing of course will.

On reflection overnight I realised you could have Ancient (300), Drycha (280), 3 Hunters (180) and 20 Dryads (240).  I wonder if Drycha would kick out more damage than 3 Hunters with scythes.  The army would be worse in scenarios though...

@Forestreveries

  1. Looking forward to seeing your RoS report, and agree a separate post would be best for the game reports.  It would be great to see a summary here though of your overall impressions, performance in certain match-ups and consequences for future list-building.
  2. My only impression of Archaon is that inexperienced players tend to assume he can take the world on his own, and then end up losing him.  I gather from the Heelanhammer reporting on SCGT that Archaon, unsupported, can go down quickly (I think Steve Wren lost him every game, but that may just be dice).
Edited by Antipodean7
Added Drycha
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For example, I'll need to keep the 6 hunters in one unit in order to capture objectives in the scenario requiring units of 5 models or more.

Just in case you're not clear on it, that one Battleplan requires 5+ models from any units not just from one. You might be better off with the extra champion.

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Just now, Nico said:

Just in case you're not clear on it, that one Battleplan requires 5+ models from any units not just from one. You might be better off with the extra champion.

Cheers Nico - I was doing it from memory and didn't go back to check.  I'll take 2 units of 3 on the assumption that an extra drop won't likely affect whether I get to choose 1st turn (given I'll be probably having more than drops than others anyway as I don't have a battalion).

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47 minutes ago, Antipodean7 said:

On reflection overnight I realised you could have Ancient (300), Drycha (280), 3 Hunters (180) and 20 Dryads (240).  I wonder if Drycha would kick out more damage than 3 Hunters with scythes.  The army would be worse in scenarios though...

At 1Kpts, Drycha seems tough to take in a TAncient list. In general the 3 Hunters w/ scythes seem more efficient. I don't have much experience w/ Drycha's Colony of Flitterfuries but I think it's difficult to optimize and may often put her at great risk since she has to push up the board with (all or most of the) rest of your army staying back. The 3 Hunters have 5 more wounds, greater resilience, the all-important -2 rend, and 3 models vs 1 for contesting/controlling objectives. Even if Squirmlings was taken for Drycha, the Hunters still look like the better bet.

You'd have 100pts left over, which could go toward a Branchwych, or 5 Tree-Revenants for more bodies and as a utility unit. That's a tough call. The Branchwych is nice for Regrowth on the TAncient, who will be important to have in combat (ideally screened by Dryads), and to keep alive in combat. At the same time, the extra bodies via a utility unit could help with objectives and with going after backline units (especially wizards and shooting) that can cause serious problems for Sylvaneth.

I'd probably lean toward 5 Tree-Revenants and then pick Regrowth or The Reaping for the TAncient depending on the opponent. 

Edited by scrubyandwells

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Yeah - if I included Drycha it would only be for lone suicide missions.  She'd go one way and the rest of my combat force another.  I'd expect to lose her each game.  NB: that list is 1,000 points, there would be no room for a Branchwych or Revenants.

In terms of screening, the issue I have is that I'll need one unit of Dryads with the Branchwych and then have the other unit struggle to keep up with the Ancient.

One thing that does puzzle me is why the Ancient and Treelords have the Spirit Paths rules on their warscrolls, while all other Sylvaneth units are covered by the Navigate Realmroots rule.  I presume this is because Ancients and Treelords can still walk the paths even if in a mixed Order army, while Dryads for example could not. 

So for my combat army I can easily port the Ancient, Hunters and 10 Dryads around through the woods.

Talking of deployment, has anyone played around with the Forest Spirits deployment rules and the General's Handbook scenarios?  Any benefit in deploying your entire army in the hidden enclaves?

Edited by Antipodean7
Comment on 100 points

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1 hour ago, Antipodean7 said:

Cheers Nico - I was doing it from memory and didn't go back to check.  I'll take 2 units of 3 on the assumption that an extra drop won't likely affect whether I get to choose 1st turn (given I'll be probably having more than drops than others anyway as I don't have a battalion).

Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread, but I just got to check if I'm missing something. I haven't read all the GH scenarios all that thoroughly but I was under the impression that the "a battalion is one drop in deployment" was something from MoComp/SCGT, I haven't seen anything about it in the GH? The scenarios I've read said that the players alternate dropping "units". Am I missing something?

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@Ratatatata - it comes from the rules for warscroll battalions in the battletomes - says you can deploy a battalion in one go as if it was one unit.

 

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In the Gnarlroot battalion it states that "a Gnarlroot tree man ancient, branchwych or branch wraith " may cast an extra spell etc.

This to me means only one of the set can do this per turn, not all of them. In the above posts are suggestions that they would all get to cast two spells a turn. Am I wrong?

 

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8 minutes ago, TheRealZen said:

In the Gnarlroot battalion it states that "a Gnarlroot tree man ancient, branchwych or branch wraith " may cast an extra spell etc.

This to me means only one of the set can do this per turn, not all of them. In the above posts are suggestions that they would all get to cast two spells a turn. Am I wrong?

 

I believe so.

 

For me, the "or" is needed because you don't have to have a branchwraith to fill the requirements of the battalion but you can. The "or" is simply there to say that if you have these Sylvaneth wizards then they can cast an extra spell. 

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It's more the "a" at the start of the sentence than the "or" that is confusing me. "A" means singular.

Dont get me wrong, I would love to be able to cast more spells.

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But if you remove the "a" then it becomes ambiguous suggesting that you can only cast two spells even if you have 4 casters (for example). 

 

Just on on my phone so hard to find an example at the moment, but I understand it to be widely accepted that you can cast two spells per caster (not just one caster) with the battalion.

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I took that to mean that each of them could cast an additional spell, but it is ambiguous.

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Greetings guys. Since we're talking Sylvaneth I thought I'd share a concern of mine.

I was reading the pitched battle scenarios and I have a question.

In the "Escalation" scenario how will our forest deepstrike will work. Do we lose it? Because the units that come after the first turn are deployed in the field. Are we able to instead of setting up in the edges of the board say that they are in the hidden enclaves and wood-deepstrike them at the same turn?

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