scrubyandwells

Let's Chat Sylvaneth

2,006 posts in this topic

This has come up a couple of times for sure. According to the GW FAQ, all abilities (and spells) stack unless it specifically tells you otherwise.

 

It may be comped at some point but I think its pretty clear just now. It's in the FAQ under 'abilities' on page 5.

Edited by Jamie Ferguson
added source reference

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The problem with having a pile of treemen behind dryads is that pitched battles have objectives and your opponent will just run around you and grab more than you.   

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I totally agree, it's not easy to use in all the missions but there are still times when that tactic works wonders. Coping with objective grabbing units is trickier which is why wyldwoods placement is key. It has to be placed somewhere that gives you access to objectives but at the same time is not too easy to get to for your opponent or they'll just deny you teleport access. 

 

The shooting / magic from the trees and Alarielle plus her speed and combat potential means that it's not too hard shifting people from objectives. The main issue I've had this far is holding my own objectives. Ultimately I may have to drop a treeman or something to get more bodies on the table but as soon as I add in any battalions then I often find what I'm swapping out is not worth the trade. 

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9 hours ago, Zen said:

I'm wondering though, regarding the teleport through wyldwoods ability: When it specifies that you have to teleport to another wyldwood, that means you can not teleport from one citadel wood set to another citadel wood set as long as they belong to the same wyldwood right? (1 wyldwood = 1-3 citadel wood sets). This means that when summoning wyldwoods one should not always just cover as much ground as possible, but perhaps only place 1 or 2 wood sets down in order to be able to teleport between them?

Hi @Zen thanks for the excellent, in-depth post. Re: teleporting through Sylvaneth Wyldwoods: You can navigate/teleport through any Sylvaneth Wyldwood. It doesn't have to be from one set. Any Sylvaneth Wyldwoods on the table represent one collective set that you can use for navigating/teleporting. 

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5 hours ago, Zen said:

I think running Outcasts is a potentially very fun list - but not particularly competitive. It can, at least on paper, be devastating against certain lists, but is almost useless against others. Very weak vs. almost all death and chaos daemons, and is almost completely negated by the SCE Celestant on Dracoths command ability. I really want to run a gimmicky list with Drycha, Spite Revenants and Decimators + Celestant Prime and Amethyst wizard. 

@Tomay: Definitely agree with the above from @Zen. Against select armies, making choices that maximize your effect on enemy Bravery could be an effective approach, but it's an approach that wouldn't work against a lot of lists.

Re: mixing Sylvaneth with Order, yeah, there's probably a ton of incredible lists that we could be exploring/playtesting.

Edited by scrubyandwells

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5 hours ago, Jamie Ferguson said:

I like a lot of the lists posted, especially the gnarlroot as it's a bit of a stand out. I do find that its a bit too easy to spend too many points on toys/battalions though and then you've very little on the table.

The army I've been using of late is very simple and pretty effective.

Alarielle, 3 x Treeman ancients (1 is the general), 40 dryads

Hi @Jamie Ferguson thanks for the incredible details on your list and experience to date. Greatly looking forward to hearing more, especially with the tournies. 

I love the -1-to-hit-stacking potential of the 3 Treelord Ancients. Stacking minuses to hit is arguably one of the best de-buffs in the game. 

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On 7/21/2016 at 3:36 PM, scrubyandwells said:

Hi @David Griffin, thanks for the awesome response. 

1. The psychological-impact potential of SRevenants is interesting! At the same time, unless you're facing a lot of low bravery units, it seems that the actual impact of Drycha's Primal Terror will be weak to moderate. I think the SRevenant stacking gets notable with 2 units (-2 bravery), but of course it means you have to get 2 units within 3" of a good target. That could be tough to pull off with much consistency, but this combo could definitely be a key piece of a winning approach vs low-bravery armies.

2. On the TRevenants, yeah -1 rend on a battleline unit (if Sylvaneth allegiance) is nice. And you're right re: their unique, extra mobility. I'm still concerned about their ability to take a punch. If they die easily in combat, you may not get a chance to Waypipe-retreat them to somewhere else valuable. If they could survive a round, though, strategically committing them to a survivable combat, and then Waypiping them to, e.g., help control an objective somewhere else entirely – that could be an effective bait and switch, leaving your opponent with the feeling of "What the hell just happened?" I'd love to hear about playtesting a unit of 10-15 TRevenants with the goal of maintaining the following conditions:

  • 4+ or 3+ on their save via cover and/or Mystic Shield. 
  • Staying in range of the TAncient's command ability in order to re-roll save rolls of 1.
    • Kurnoth Hunters also make it easier to stay in range via their Envoys of the Everqueen ability.
  • Staying in range of Wisdom of the Ancients (command trait that gives+1 to bravery in the battleshock phase).
    • If also combined with the Household Battalion's Discipline of the Ages, TRevenants would be at +2 to bravery when within 3" of enemy units.
  • And finally, running Gnarlroot Wargrove and staying in range of Verdurous Harmony to return D3 slain TRevenants on a 7+ cast.

3. Yeah Kurnoths seem amazing all around. I think we'll see some tourney armies running lots of them. They're great value at 180pts.

4. Thankfully, it looks like "Allegiances of the Realms" will drop in September and give the new toys (command traits etc.) to the existing factions.

On the Ironjawz in particular, have you seen @Chris Tomlin's running thread on his experiences? It seems that Destruction's new toys in the GH have already made them much more competitive by addressing what had been their major weakness (slow movement).

5. Definitely agree: Hopefully we'll see a lot of playtesting with Wyldwoods to inform potential comping. As a personal hunch, by the start of 2017, I suspect Sylvaneth will still be competitive but will require a lot of finesse to compete at the top tier consistently. They have multiple playstyles, and distinct weaknesses. Overall, they seem fun as hell.

1. I agree the bravery bomb is much less effective against certain armies and requires more finesse than most people are interested in trying to pull off. Drycha is still a beast without it though.

2. I wholeheartedly support the goal you outlined! I think they may be a tad expensive, but on the other hand, when you have bad asses like Alarielle, Durthu, and Kurnoth Hunters kicking around, I think TRevs are a super nice sneaky unit that will consistently be underestimated and unaccounted for. Their ability reminds me of skinks, who can just withdraw from combat. 

3. I can actually speak to the new abilities firsthand! I got my teeth kicked in this weekend by some faster-than-expected Brutes. 

4. As of now, I'm a fan of limiting the number of tree footprints rather than putting a points cost on them. Part of me thinks the points for Wyldwoods are already somewhat baked into the Sylaneth units.

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On 22/07/2016 at 6:36 AM, scrubyandwells said:

1. The psychological-impact potential of SRevenants is interesting! At the same time, unless you're facing a lot of low bravery units, it seems that the actual impact of Drycha's Primal Terror will be weak to moderate. I think the SRevenant stacking gets notable with 2 units (-2 bravery), but of course it means you have to get 2 units within 3" of a good target. That could be tough to pull off with much consistency, but this combo could definitely be a key piece of a winning approach vs low-bravery armies.

 

Just to clarify, the "Unbridled Melee" ability of multiple SRevenant units does not stack right? It just applies once if the unit is within 3 of any SRevenants? This is where I have trouble seeing their use, I think it would be really cool to have an Outcast army focused on mortal wounds and bravery debuffs but there just isn't enough of it.

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The way "Unbridled Malice" is worded means it will not stack.  Correct.   

 

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13 minutes ago, Tomay said:

Just to clarify, the "Unbridled Melee" ability of multiple SRevenant units does not stack right? It just applies once if the unit is within 3 of any SRevenants? This is where I have trouble seeing their use, I think it would be really cool to have an Outcast army focused on mortal wounds and bravery debuffs but there just isn't enough of it.

 

11 minutes ago, jsewell said:

The way "Unbridled Malice" is worded means it will not stack.  Correct.   

 

I can see how it's not clear. Upon first reading, I thought the wording meant that each Spite-Revenants unit within 3" of enemy units causes -1 Bravery each. Could you clarify your interpretation? Is it the "any" part in "any Spite-Revenants"? That's the part that I interpreted as "any Spite-Revenants [unit]," but maybe that's mistaken.

Also the following from the AoS FAQ:

Are the effects of multiple duplicate spells and abilities stackable against the target? 
Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise.

Edited by scrubyandwells

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RAW, it doesn't stack and I'd ask for a FAQ for this exact unit to rule it otherwise.  

"Enemy units within 3" of any Spite-Revenants must subtract 1 from their Bravery."  The bold is true whether one unit or ten units.  

RAI, I'm not sure, but typically they would state "a Spite-Revenants unit" if intended to stack.


On the other hand, Treelords' Groundshaking Stomp RAW stacks, but RAI I don't believe it is supposed to.  

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On 26 July 2016 at 1:43 PM, scrubyandwells said:

Hi @Nixon, thanks, glad to hear!

Ok here we go:

Gnarlroot Wargrove Battalion - 80
Household Battalion - 20
Treelord Ancient - 300
Branchwych - 100
Tree-Revenants x5 - 100
Dryads x20 - 240
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (scythes) - 180
Total - 1,020pts 

The above has a number of nice elements: 

  • With two battalions, you can take two artefacts of power, one for each hero.
  • With two wizards + Gnarlroot Wargrove, you can cast up to 4 spells per your hero phase.
    • The command trait, artefacts, and spells is where you can really playtest synergies.
      • Taking a Wargrove seems good since it allows you to playtest different spells and synergies in a small ~1,000pt game.
  • You’d have a very-strong combat unit in the 3 Kurnoth Hunters with scythes. 
  • You’d have 25 battleline models, a pretty-good number for Sylvaneth at 1,000pts.
  • You could playtest how to use Tree-Revenants (they’re very fragile, especially at 5 models) with their Waypiping ability.
  • And you could playtest different tactics with Dryads, such as using them to control objectives, or to screen and protect the Treelord Ancient. By also having 20 of them in a unit, the Dryads could soak up 8 casualties before losing their save bonus.

If you wanted to playtest a character at 1,000pts, Drycha would be a great option. 

Good luck! Would love to hear how you're getting on in your games.

I thought the Gnarlroot Wargrove points cost includes the cost of the Household? So you don't pay for both? That gives you a nice round 1,000. 

 

Anyone seen otherwise?

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RAW, you still have to pay for the wargrove and all battalions within it.  

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11 minutes ago, Antipodean7 said:

I thought the Gnarlroot Wargrove points cost includes the cost of the Household? So you don't pay for both? That gives you a nice round 1,000. 

 

Anyone seen otherwise?

7 minutes ago, jsewell said:

RAW, you still have to pay for the wargrove and all battalions within it.  

Yeah GW has clarified that it's as @jsewell said. 

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7 hours ago, jsewell said:

RAW, it doesn't stack and I'd ask for a FAQ for this exact unit to rule it otherwise.  

"Enemy units within 3" of any Spite-Revenants must subtract 1 from their Bravery."  The bold is true whether one unit or ten units.  

RAI, I'm not sure, but typically they would state "a Spite-Revenants unit" if intended to stack.


On the other hand, Treelords' Groundshaking Stomp RAW stacks, but RAI I don't believe it is supposed to.  

Thanks, I think you're right: They probably would've written it differently if they intended to stack. Thanks for the clarification.

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13 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Hi @Zen thanks for the excellent, in-depth post. Re: teleporting through Sylvaneth Wyldwoods: You can navigate/teleport through any Sylvaneth Wyldwood. It doesn't have to be from one set. Any Sylvaneth Wyldwoods on the table represent one collective set that you can use for navigating/teleporting. 

Hey, apologies for being unclear in my first post.

Regarding teleportation through wyldwoods, the rules state: "If a SYLVANETH unit is within 3" of a Sylvaneth Wyldwood at the start of your movement phase, it can attempt to traverse the spirit paths instead of moving normally. If it does so, remove the unit from the battlefield, then set it up within 3" of a different Sylvaneth Wyldwood, more than 9" from any enemy models"

So my question basically is as follows: What constitutes a different Sylvaneth Wyldwood. 

For instance, take the following scenario:

Using the Sylvaneth Allegiance ability Wyldwood Groves I place a Sylvaneth Wyldwood anywhere on the battlefield at the beginning of the game (Wyldwood A). This Wyldwood consists of (per the warscroll) "2 or more Citadel woods". 

Then, using the spell Verdant Blessing I summon another Wyldwood (Wyldwood B). As earlier, this wyldwood consist of "2 or more citadel woods".

The map could look something like this:

wyldwoods.png

 

Wyldwood A consists of 3 citadel wood terrain pieces, labeled A1, A2 and A3, while Wyldwood B consists of 2 citadel wood terrain pieces, labeled B1 and B2.

Now, how are these Wyldwoods treated in terms of being "separate wyldwoods" and as terrain in general?

Scenario: The Dryads in the picture above want to use their teleportation ability. Where can they teleport? If citadel wood piece A1, A2 and A3 are treated as one wyldwood that means the dryads can only teleport to Wyldwood B, right? I'd love to be able to teleport from A3 to A2 and A1, but RAW it seems like you can't? 

Bonus scenario: Knight-Heraldor toots Citadel wood piece A1. Does the dryads take damage? If citadel wood pieces A1, A2 and A3 are treated as one singular terrain piece then they would take damage right?

Edited by Zen
Clarification
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On 26/07/2016 at 8:14 AM, scrubyandwells said:

Thanks for sharing! Yeah the model count seems too low, if playing Pitched Battles, but it's an interesting list that looks fun. Would love to hear how your testing goes.

I played with my Gnarlroot 1k point list. It was without objectives, just a quick battle against an Orruks army.
My opponent had a Big Boss, The big spider and 3 groups of Orruks (Don’t remember the units).

I kept everything close together in my Wildwood and forced my opponent to close in because I was having fun with Drycha’s Flitterfurries. The range is quite large. Later in the range of my Branchwych I caused more mortal wounds (I kept the Branchwych just out of combat but in range for her spells). I healed my own units with the Regrowth and the Gnarlroot spell.

In the end the Treelord Ancient, Drycha and the Branchwych survived.
The rest ended up dead including all the Orruks.

I did not find a use for the Tree-Revenants (This may have changed if my opponent had wizards or war machines).

The key to Dryads are the placement in a Wildwood. Together with the possible Treelord Ancient’s stomp and command ability they last longer in combat.

The only thing I forgot was causing even more mortal wounds on each successful cast in the Wildwood forest.

I believe the weakness of this army is when it is spread out over objectives. All in one blob this army has a lot of synergy.

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11 hours ago, Zen said:

Hey, apologies for being unclear in my first post.

Regarding teleportation through wyldwoods, the rules state: "If a SYLVANETH unit is within 3" of a Sylvaneth Wyldwood at the start of your movement phase, it can attempt to traverse the spirit paths instead of moving normally. If it does so, remove the unit from the battlefield, then set it up within 3" of a different Sylvaneth Wyldwood, more than 9" from any enemy models"

So my question basically is as follows: What constitutes a different Sylvaneth Wyldwood. 

For instance, take the following scenario:

Using the Sylvaneth Allegiance ability Wyldwood Groves I place a Sylvaneth Wyldwood anywhere on the battlefield at the beginning of the game (Wyldwood A). This Wyldwood consists of (per the warscroll) "2 or more Citadel woods". 

Then, using the spell Verdant Blessing I summon another Wyldwood (Wyldwood B). As earlier, this wyldwood consist of "2 or more citadel woods".

The map could look something like this:

wyldwoods.png

 

Wyldwood A consists of 3 citadel wood terrain pieces, labeled A1, A2 and A3, while Wyldwood B consists of 2 citadel wood terrain pieces, labeled B1 and B2.

Now, how are these Wyldwoods treated in terms of being "separate wyldwoods" and as terrain in general?

Scenario: The Dryads in the picture above want to use their teleportation ability. Where can they teleport? If citadel wood piece A1, A2 and A3 are treated as one wyldwood that means the dryads can only teleport to Wyldwood B, right? I'd love to be able to teleport from A3 to A2 and A1, but RAW it seems like you can't? 

Bonus scenario: Knight-Heraldor toots Citadel wood piece A1. Does the dryads take damage? If citadel wood pieces A1, A2 and A3 are treated as one singular terrain piece then they would take damage right?

Hi @Zen thanks for the clarification and excellent overview. My sense of the RAW here:

1) You would not be able to teleport between A1-A3, but you could teleport from A3 to B1 or B2
2) A1-3 would be one terrain feature for purposes of the Knight-Heraldor's Thunderblast attack. The Heraldor's Thunderblast can target one terrain feature, and the Sylvaneth Wyldwood is classified on its warscroll as one terrain feature comprised of 1 to 3 citadel woods. 

I like how these things could help incentivize deploying only 1 citadel wood per Wyldwood generated, which might lessen the need for any additional house rules.

Edited by scrubyandwells
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1 hour ago, scrubyandwells said:

Hi @Zen thanks for the clarification and excellent overview. My sense of the RAW here:

1) You would not be able to teleport between A1-A3, but you could teleport from A3 to B1 or B2
2) A1-3 would be one terrain feature for purposes of the Knight-Heraldor's Thunderblast attack. The Heraldor's Thunderblast can target one terrain feature, and the Sylvaneth Wyldwood is classified on its warscroll as one terrain feature comprised of 1 to 3 citadel woods. 

I like how these things could help incentivize deploying only 1 citadel wood per Wyldwood generated, which might lessen the need for any additional house rules.

I agree with all this and for simplicity have been playing one citadel wood per wildwood in my games so far. 

 

Aaron

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I would love to see what other people have been thinking for their 1000pt lists. I am assembling my way through the start collecting set, and have been thinking something like:

  • Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)
  • Household Battalion (20)
  • Tree lord Ancient (300)
  • Branchwynch (100)
  • 5 Tree Revenants (100)
  • 20 Dryads (240)
  • and either 1 more Branchwynch (100) for a total of 940, or another 10 dryads in the above unit for a total of 960.

I love the extra spell cast / unbind, and the Verdurous Harmony spell from the Gnarlroot Wargrove, and the +1 bravery and no retreat from the household battalion could make the dryads a good tarpit, mystic shield and hopefully in a wildwood or some kind of cover near an objective. I'm not sure if those bonuses make it worth the extra 100 points of battalions, and the 100 points of tree revenants (I'm waiting to try them, the seem situational). 

As discussed above, it's not that many models on the board. I haven't played much yet though so I'm curious to see what other armies have in their 1000 point lists. The new savage orcs are frightening, I don't fancy versing them with their cheap units, high damage output and monster hunting bonuses...

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On 7/30/2016 at 7:58 AM, MidasKiss said:

I would love to see what other people have been thinking for their 1000pt lists. I am assembling my way through the start collecting set, and have been thinking something like:

  • Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)
  • Household Battalion (20)
  • Tree lord Ancient (300)
  • Branchwynch (100)
  • 5 Tree Revenants (100)
  • 20 Dryads (240)
  • and either 1 more Branchwynch (100) for a total of 940, or another 10 dryads in the above unit for a total of 960.

I love the extra spell cast / unbind, and the Verdurous Harmony spell from the Gnarlroot Wargrove, and the +1 bravery and no retreat from the household battalion could make the dryads a good tarpit, mystic shield and hopefully in a wildwood or some kind of cover near an objective. I'm not sure if those bonuses make it worth the extra 100 points of battalions, and the 100 points of tree revenants (I'm waiting to try them, the seem situational). 

As discussed above, it's not that many models on the board. I haven't played much yet though so I'm curious to see what other armies have in their 1000 point lists. The new savage orcs are frightening, I don't fancy versing them with their cheap units, high damage output and monster hunting bonuses...

Hi @MidasKiss that looks like a fun list to try out. 

I'd be a little concerned about its lack of punch. All else equal, the only one who's likely to do much damage in combat, outside of potential damage from spells, is the Treelord Ancient. Dryads don't tend to do much in combat, especially due to their lack of rend. Tree Revenants can do some damage, if they swing first on a charge, but you'd only be getting 12 attacks with them, which would be (on average) 6 hits and then 4 wounds at -1 rend. If you can get a charge off with 10 of them, though, and take advantage of their 6" pile in, that'd be up to 22 attacks, which will be pretty strong against most units.

Would definitely recommend trying out some 1,000pt lists with at least 3 Kurnoth Hunters with scythes or greatswords. I suspect they're one of the best buys in the game right now at 180pts. They're quite resilient and can dish out a ton of damage.

I was running the below 1,000pt list last night and had some success against Seraphon:

Treelord Ancient (300)
  Gnarled Warrior (Command Trait)
  Briarsheath (Artefact of Power)
Branchwych (100)
Dryads x10 (120)
Dryads x10 (120)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Scythes)
Kurnoth Hunters x3 (180) (Scythes)

The Dryads served as decent tarpits + models for objectives and the Kurnoth Hunters covered their flanks. The list works better when it can stay together. Things could get rough if it has to be split up much.

Edited by scrubyandwells
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What have been peoples experiences with the Free Spirits Battalion?

I am a long time 40k player who has dabbled with Fantasy from time to time and am now considering starting AoS. I always liked the Forest Spirit part of Wood Elves and with the recent additions the ability to play just with Treefolk is tempting.

I haven’t got any books yet but from reading around the net the Free Spirit Battalion with Durthu and three units of Kurnoth Hunters sounds great for me.

I don’t have much of an AoS community near me (that I know of any way), so any games would be pick up with random people at the nearest GW store and I would assume that point based games would be easier in this scenario. So would also need some Dryads, a Branchwraith and/or Branchwych and some citadel woods. Would not mind some more Treemen either.

I don’t much like the look of the Revenants and Drycha (old or new, any Branchwraith I field would be converted out of a base Dryad) so form an aesthetic point of view would like to avoided them.

Any advice will be welcome and if there is away to make a valid army out of mainly Hunters with a few Treemen that would be perfect.

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43 minutes ago, Trokair said:

What have been peoples experiences with the Free Spirits Battalion?

I am a long time 40k player who has dabbled with Fantasy from time to time and am now considering starting AoS. I always liked the Forest Spirit part of Wood Elves and with the recent additions the ability to play just with Treefolk is tempting.

I haven’t got any books yet but from reading around the net the Free Spirit Battalion with Durthu and three units of Kurnoth Hunters sounds great for me.

I don’t have much of an AoS community near me (that I know of any way), so any games would be pick up with random people at the nearest GW store and I would assume that point based games would be easier in this scenario. So would also need some Dryads, a Branchwraith and/or Branchwych and some citadel woods. Would not mind some more Treemen either.

I don’t much like the look of the Revenants and Drycha (old or new, any Branchwraith I field would be converted out of a base Dryad) so form an aesthetic point of view would like to avoided them.

Any advice will be welcome and if there is away to make a valid army out of mainly Hunters with a few Treemen that would be perfect.

I think it's a great formation.  It's super aggressive and the units are all both resilient and kick out a lot of damage. The added speed makes this a super scary prospect. 

 

I would advise equipping your Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes as the extra melee range and rend value are both really powerful. 

You're already thinking of adding treemen and a couple of units of dryads which would round out the list very well. Though if you're playing in Matched Play rather than open play I would suggest a Branchwych over a Branchwraith (also means you don't have to buy a Drycha model). 

 

A Treelord Ancient would also be a great addition, for its melee power and magic support, but perhaps most importantly it's Command Ability. They are a staple of most Sylvaneth lists. 

 

Aaron

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Thank you Forestreveries

Would it be a good idea to have one unit of Great Bow armed Hunters, just for some ranged support (and model variety).

What is the benefit of a Treeman Ancient over a normal Treeman? The unique spell only seems good if an opponent makes the mistake of going near some Woods, which I assume most will avoid when facing a Sylvaneth host due to all the other shenanigans related to Woods that we have.

Talking of woods, how many to people normally bring with them to a battle?  Also when making more wyldwoods how many citadel woods do most people use? One, two or all three?  

If many are need for decent games then that is quite an additional chunk of money need on top of the actual army.

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