Jump to content
Welcome Guest!

Join us now to get access to all our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, and so, so much more. It's also quick and totally free, so what are you waiting for?

scrubyandwells

Let's Chat Sylvaneth

2,714 posts in this topic

scrubyandwells    364

Hi all,

Hoping to start a conversation here looking at the Sylvaneth in theory and in practice using Matched Play, especially for tournies and Pitched Battles.

Would love to hear about your own views and experiences. 

After a first-look through the battletome, here's initial impressions:

  1. Overall: The Sylvaneth are a landmark for AoS. Arguably for the first time, GW has hit for the cycle: the lore, characters, models, and rules are all strong. I hope this release reflects a new level of integrated (and growing) quality for AoS across those four components.
  2. Gnarlroot Wargrove Battalion stands out. With 2,000pts, it could be common to see 7-9 unique spells casted per round from a pool of 9-11 choices. 
    • This battalion also allows you to take an Order Wizard. A Loremaster is a good buy at 100pts to cast Hand of Glory on, e.g., Alarielle, Drycha, or a Spirit of Durthu.
  3. I love the Tree-Revenant models. If you're trying to optimize, though, Dryads seem distinctly better. Two factors stand out:
    • Large model counts are important for Pitched Battle scenarios, given the role of model count for controlling objectives/winning.
    • Sylvaneth Battleline units are both fragile and susceptible to battleshock (although buffs exist to improve bravery). 
    • In light of those factors and others, 10 Dryads for 120pts seems a better buy than 5 Tree-Revenants for 100pts.
  4. With the help of Wyldwoods scenery, Sylvaneth have multiple ways to "teleport." The effectiveness, though, will be affected by having to "teleport" 9" away from enemy models.
    • At 9"+ away, charges will fail ~75% of the time, or ~66% with a +1 buff. 
      • Another value of large model counts: To better protect your "teleporting" heroes from charges and enable them to counter charge.
  5. At the same time, after scenery has been setup at the start of the game, Wyldwood Groves (a Sylvaneth Battle Trait) allows you to place 1 Wyldwoods warscroll anywhere on the table more than 1" from any other scenery. Specifically, a Wyldwoods warscroll lets you place up to 3 citadel woods up to 1" from each other. (Each citadel wood is 11" x 8".) I suspect this means that it'll be difficult for your opponent to stop you from "teleporting" within 3" of a citadel wood and within the general vicinity of where you want to go.
    • This is especially important for Dryads. Hit rolls against them are at -1 if they are within 3" of a Wyldwood.
  6. Sylvaneth have 5 ways to generate Wyldwoods. Tournies may want to limit 1 Wyldwood warscroll to 1 or 2 citadel woods, and set a maximum overall cap.
    • My initial, untested sense: Limit 1 Wyldwood warscroll to up to 2 citadel woods, and set the citadel wood overall cap at 6.
      • Allowing only 1 citadel wood per Wyldwood warscroll could make it very difficult for Sylvaneth to "teleport."
    • 9/4/16 Update: Playtesting so far has shown how important Wyldwoods usually are re: competing w/ Sylvaneth. At the moment, I probably wouldn't set a Wyldwood limit in Matched Play, but would play on a 4x6 with 10+ terrain pieces (ideally 12) to create a more inherent limit (when combined with the restrictions from enemy movement).
  7. GW has done an outstanding job designing distinct sub-armies within the Sylvaneth, even with a relatively small model range.
    • Drycha and the Spite-Revenants especially reflect a distinct army within an army.
  8. Dreadwood Grove Battalion is a strong alphastrike for Sylvaneth. Check it out. 
    • In particular, it's Ambush ability: At the start of your first round, one of your units can be redeployed anywhere 6" or more from enemy units.
    • This battalion also allows Spite-Revenants to re-roll wound rolls of 1. 
  9. Gnarlroot-Wargrove build that seems intriguing (2,000pts):
    • Treelord Ancient (300)
    • Spirit of Durthu (400)
    • Branchwych (100)
    • 20 Dryads (240)
    • 10 Dryads (120)
    • 5 Tree-Revenants (100)
    • 5 Tree-Revenants (100)
    • 3 Kurnoth Hunters with scythes (180)
    • 3 Kurnoth Hunters with greatswords (180)
    • 3 Kurnoth Hunters with greatbows (180)
    • Gnarlroot Wargrove Battalion (80)
    • Household Battalion (20)
    • A walk-and-chew-gum list: shooting, magic, Wyldwoods, combat, and objective capturing.
  10. A Dreadwood-Wargrove build (1,960pts):
    1. Treelord Ancient (300)
    2. Branchwych (100)
    3. 20 Dryads (240)
    4. 10 Dryads (120)
    5. 10 Dryads (120)
    6. 5 Spite-Revenants (100)
    7. 5 Spite-Revenants (100)
    8. 5 Spite-Revenants (100)
    9. 5 Spite-Revenants (100)
    10. 9 Kurnoth Hunters with scythes (540)
    11. Dreadwood Wargrove Battalion (100)
    12. Outcasts Battalion (40)
    13. This list is especially built around alphastriking 9 Kurnoth Hunters with scythes (or greatswords) on your first turn, and controlling/contesting objectives with your other units. The list would probably struggle in Three Places of Power since it only has two heroes; but otherwise, 71 models is a good # for model-count-oriented Pitched Battles.

Thanks for reading. Would love to hear your thoughts on the Sylvaneth!

Edited by scrubyandwells
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nico    1,980

Dreadwood Grove Battalion This does look very strong - probably offsets the fact that it has the Spite Revanants in it (not really sure what the point of these guys is - surprised they don't have a really special rule like mortal wounds on a 6 to hit or something).

  • Quote

    This battalion also allows you to take an Order Wizard. A Loremaster is a good buy at 100pts to cast Hand of Glory on, e.g., Alarielle, Drycha, or a Spirit of Durthu.

Kroak is another freestanding option. Sisters of the Thorn also (and fluffier).

The other formation that allows you to take any Order Unit (and keep the Sylvaneth Allegiance) is interesting. Celestial Hurricanum or maybe a large unit of Dracoth Knights could be candidates (as these guys are tough and can do stuff without synergies) - more predictably some will just take a cannon.

 

The combat synergies look very limited. Healing on the other hand is off the charts.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great write up. 

For my next game I plan to test out Battalions and more Revenants both Tree and Spite.

After my first game with the Sylvaneth using the new battlethome seems very apparent that the Wyldwoods play a major factor in the overall tactics of the army. IMO they are key to overall success. Without them Dryads and Revenants just get vaporized. Dryads units need to be large enough to gain Impenetrable Thicket and weather a prolonged combat.

Drycha is a beast!

I took Flitterfurries and threw caution to the wind and Drycha wasn't happy with that. :) She was Enraged for most of the game and wounded my Spites and Treeman Ancient with severe consequences. Flitterfurries was just as powerful against my enemy and wrecked face against the Khorne army I was facing the 18 inch range is HUGE best to be very careful when using it. 

Can't wait to play more with them.

Lots of Dryads in my future and S/T Revenants!

Edited by Holy Hammer Hern
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
David Griffin    105

Excellent write up! 

Having played a couple games now against Sylvaneth, here are my thoughts.

Specific Units

A lot of people are downplaying the Spite Revs. In my game, my opponent placed a 5 man unit of these between 3 pieces of terrain and had Drycha in the vicinity. Their ability to manipulate bravery is potentially useful mechanically, but I think they have a greater psychological affect in game. I actively avoided areas of the board that I normally wouldn't have thought twice about. If you have multiple small units of these guys, you can really expand the effect all over the place.

T Revs are useful for two reasons: Rend, and mobility. They aren't dependent on Wyldwoods like dryads, as they can pop up on a board edge anywhere. Even if they are in combat, they can just evaporate and appear somewhere else on the board.

Drycha is a mauler. If she manages to get the right emotion (depressed, angry) at the right time, she can absolutely blend a unit with all of her attacks.

I haven't played Kurnoth's yet (sad face), but I will certainly be buying some of these in the future. They're pretty much the coolest models ever, and their anti-charge ability while in cover is super tasty.

Matched Play/Tournaments

I think balancing this army against others for tournaments is going to be tricky until other army books come out. Their access to new spells and specific artifacts gives Sylvaneth access to tools that aren't available to other armies. The poor Ironjaws got the shaft here.

Similarly, the Wyldwoods really act as another Sylvaneth unit on the board, as they greatly impact every phase of the game in favor of the Sylvaneth (teleporting, cover, deadly terrain, anti-magic, bonuses to hit). I think they're crucial for the army, and I want every Sylvaneth I play with/against to field a truckload of these. However, if we want to try to "balance" the armies for tournaments, there may need to be restrictions, points values, etc. placed on Wyldwoods. Tyler, I think your recommendations on the size/amount of woods is a good place to start.

Again, on both these points, I'm just saying for a tournament setting where people place a lot of value around "fairness". Personally, I want to see every Sylvaneth army with all their cool spells and abilities, and I'll be really disappointed if people comp these out of existence. There just may need to be a conversation amongst TO's about certain mechanisms to keep it from getting out of hand in matched events.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scrubyandwells    364
13 hours ago, Nico said:

Kroak is another freestanding option. Sisters of the Thorn also (and fluffier).

The other formation that allows you to take any Order Unit (and keep the Sylvaneth Allegiance) is interesting. Celestial Hurricanum or maybe a large unit of Dracoth Knights could be candidates (as these guys are tough and can do stuff without synergies) - more predictably some will just take a cannon.

Love the Sisters-of-the-Thorn models but they seem overpriced. Their shooting range is only 9" and won't do much damage at 4's/4's/-1R/1D. They're fragile as well, so I don't think you want them close to enemy units in most cases. Their spell seems nice, but not great. Kroak is always fun, though. :) 

Yeah a unit of 2 Dracothian Guard at 240 seems like a pretty good buy. 

For general ref, Winterleaf Wargrove is the battalion that allows for 0-1 Order. I do wish the battalion's Abilities were a little more attractive.

Thanks for your thoughts! Do you see any Sylvaneth in your future? 

Edited by scrubyandwells

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nico    1,980

Love the Sisters-of-the-Thorn models but they seem overpriced. Their shooting range is only 9" and won't do much damage at 4's/4's/-1R/1D. They're fragile as well, so I don't think you want them close to enemy units in most cases. Their spell seems nice, but not great. Kroak is always fun, though. 

 

Rerolling saves is unbelievably strong. Especially on 3+ save models or 2+ save models like your Treeman with the Oaken Armour Artefact. Plus doing mortal wounds back. Plus there are combos for getting +2 or more to a save (Oaken Armour, Mystic Shield, Cover) so any rendless attacks are just suicide.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TrexPushups    88
33 minutes ago, Jamie Ferguson said:

Hang on, I thought that by taking a scroll without Sylvaneth as a keyword you lost the allegiance benefits. I must have missed where it states otherwise?

On Facebook they clarified that if the battalion scroll has the keyword it means it is fine for allegiance purposes. 

I expect this will be mentioned in the FAQ. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scrubyandwells    364
25 minutes ago, Jamie Ferguson said:

Hang on, I thought that by taking a scroll without Sylvaneth as a keyword you lost the allegiance benefits. I must have missed where it states otherwise?

I believe the Generals Handbook is being released with an updated FAQ, which will clarify that you can retain the allegiance benefits when using a battalion like a Sylvaneth Wargrove that allows you to take non-Sylvaneth-keyword units.  I think this is the case. Maybe someone else could clarify. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sunchaser    9

Have any of you had luck using Drycha's scream with spite revenants? Im really curious how it will work but I haven't gotten a chance to try myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scrubyandwells    364
11 hours ago, Holy Hammer Hern said:

Great write up. 

For my next game I plan to test out Battalions and more Revenants both Tree and Spite.

After my first game with the Sylvaneth using the new battlethome seems very apparent that the Wyldwoods play a major factor in the overall tactics of the army. IMO they are key to overall success. Without them Dryads and Revenants just get vaporized. Dryads units need to be large enough to gain Impenetrable Thicket and weather a prolonged combat.

Drycha is a beast!

I took Flitterfurries and threw caution to the wind and Drycha wasn't happy with that. :) She was Enraged for most of the game and wounded my Spites and Treeman Ancient with severe consequences. Flitterfurries was just as powerful against my enemy and wrecked face against the Khorne army I was facing the 18 inch range is HUGE best to be very careful when using it. 

Can't wait to play more with them.

Lots of Dryads in my future and S/T Revenants!

Hi Steve, thanks for sharing your initial experience. 

You might experiment with Drycha as an early suicide bomb. The threat of her exploding could also affect to your advantage how your opponent deploys. Since Drycha is only 280pts, I think you could often get a big ROI by sending her off solo to explode on the first turn. You'd probably want to optimize getting first turn by taking a Wargrove Battalion and deploying in one drop, but of course with Forest Spirits, Drycha (and whatever else) can be setup in the hidden enclaves in order to keep her safe first turn.

Excited to hear more about how S/T Revenants are faring on the table. 

Edited by scrubyandwells

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scrubyandwells    364
8 hours ago, Nico said:

Love the Sisters-of-the-Thorn models but they seem overpriced. Their shooting range is only 9" and won't do much damage at 4's/4's/-1R/1D. They're fragile as well, so I don't think you want them close to enemy units in most cases. Their spell seems nice, but not great. Kroak is always fun, though. 

 

Rerolling saves is unbelievably strong. Especially on 3+ save models or 2+ save models like your Treeman with the Oaken Armour Artefact. Plus doing mortal wounds back. Plus there are combos for getting +2 or more to a save (Oaken Armour, Mystic Shield, Cover) so any rendless attacks are just suicide.

Yeah agree, Shield of Thorns seems quite good on its own...the general concern is the overall cost to access it – 220pts for 5 Sisters of the Thorn. (Personally I thought they were also overpriced in SCGT.) At that price, it's hard to imagine capturing enough value consistently for them. They could be nice for late objective capturing, but 220pts is a lot to pay for that role, and being so fragile they may not survive late game. You could get 20 Dryads for 240pts and have them perform a similar role by staying off table in the hidden enclaves for the first few rounds.

Great point re: save-stacking opportunities. On the latest Facehammer pod, I was terrified to hear about the # of shots that Savage Orruk Arrow Boys can pump out. Running a Spirit of Durthu with a 2+ re-rollable save would be lifesaving against mass shooting, especially to help protect Alarielle or a Treelord Ancient via the Solemn Guardian ability.

Edited by scrubyandwells

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scrubyandwells    364
5 hours ago, Sunchaser said:

Have any of you had luck using Drycha's scream with spite revenants? Im really curious how it will work but I haven't gotten a chance to try myself.

Great Q. I can't playtest for a while, but hopefully we'll hear from others. I suspect it'll be quite situational and often tough to setup the S-Revenant stacking. For general ref, if a Liberator's bravery of 6 is the mean, you have to successfully cast Drycha's spell on a 6+ (which isn't too bad), then roll a 5 to cause 1 mortal wound, and then have an S-Revenant unit within 3" of the targeted unit in order to turn that roll into 1 mortal wound on a 4, or 2 on a 5, etc. If Drycha's scream could reach 3+ enemy units, it could have a decent effect, and of course it would be strong against low-bravery units/armies. 

Edited by scrubyandwells

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scrubyandwells    364
On 7/20/2016 at 4:21 PM, David Griffin said:

Excellent write up! 

Having played a couple games now against Sylvaneth, here are my thoughts.

Specific Units

A lot of people are downplaying the Spite Revs. In my game, my opponent placed a 5 man unit of these between 3 pieces of terrain and had Drycha in the vicinity. Their ability to manipulate bravery is potentially useful mechanically, but I think they have a greater psychological affect in game. I actively avoided areas of the board that I normally wouldn't have thought twice about. If you have multiple small units of these guys, you can really expand the effect all over the place.

T Revs are useful for two reasons: Rend, and mobility. They aren't dependent on Wyldwoods like dryads, as they can pop up on a board edge anywhere. Even if they are in combat, they can just evaporate and appear somewhere else on the board.

Drycha is a mauler. If she manages to get the right emotion (depressed, angry) at the right time, she can absolutely blend a unit with all of her attacks.

I haven't played Kurnoth's yet (sad face), but I will certainly be buying some of these in the future. They're pretty much the coolest models ever, and their anti-charge ability while in cover is super tasty.

Matched Play/Tournaments

I think balancing this army against others for tournaments is going to be tricky until other army books come out. Their access to new spells and specific artifacts gives Sylvaneth access to tools that aren't available to other armies. The poor Ironjaws got the shaft here.

Similarly, the Wyldwoods really act as another Sylvaneth unit on the board, as they greatly impact every phase of the game in favor of the Sylvaneth (teleporting, cover, deadly terrain, anti-magic, bonuses to hit). I think they're crucial for the army, and I want every Sylvaneth I play with/against to field a truckload of these. However, if we want to try to "balance" the armies for tournaments, there may need to be restrictions, points values, etc. placed on Wyldwoods. Tyler, I think your recommendations on the size/amount of woods is a good place to start.

Again, on both these points, I'm just saying for a tournament setting where people place a lot of value around "fairness". Personally, I want to see every Sylvaneth army with all their cool spells and abilities, and I'll be really disappointed if people comp these out of existence. There just may need to be a conversation amongst TO's about certain mechanisms to keep it from getting out of hand in matched events.

Hi @David Griffin, thanks for the awesome response. 

1. The psychological-impact potential of SRevenants is interesting! At the same time, unless you're facing a lot of low bravery units, it seems that the actual impact of Drycha's Primal Terror will be weak to moderate. I think the SRevenant stacking gets notable with 2 units (-2 bravery), but of course it means you have to get 2 units within 3" of a good target. That could be tough to pull off with much consistency, but this combo could definitely be a key piece of a winning approach vs low-bravery armies. 

[7/28/16 Update: It appears that Spite-Revenants do not stack their Unbridled Malice ability. The 2-units reference above would only cause -1 bravery, not -2 bravery.]

2. On the TRevenants, yeah -1 rend on a battleline unit (if Sylvaneth allegiance) is nice. And you're right re: their unique, extra mobility. I'm still concerned about their ability to take a punch. If they die easily in combat, you may not get a chance to Waypipe-retreat them to somewhere else valuable. If they could survive a round, though, strategically committing them to a survivable combat, and then Waypiping them to, e.g., help control an objective somewhere else entirely – that could be an effective bait and switch, leaving your opponent with the feeling of "What the hell just happened?" I'd love to hear about playtesting a unit of 10-15 TRevenants with the goal of maintaining the following conditions:

  • 4+ or 3+ on their save via cover and/or Mystic Shield. 
  • Staying in range of the TAncient's command ability in order to re-roll save rolls of 1.
    • Kurnoth Hunters also make it easier to stay in range via their Envoys of the Everqueen ability.
  • Staying in range of Wisdom of the Ancients (command trait that gives+1 to bravery in the battleshock phase).
    • If also combined with the Household Battalion's Discipline of the Ages, TRevenants would be at +2 to bravery when within 3" of enemy units.
  • And finally, running Gnarlroot Wargrove and staying in range of Verdurous Harmony to return D3 slain TRevenants on a 7+ cast.

3. Yeah Kurnoths seem amazing all around. I think we'll see some tourney armies running lots of them. They're great value at 180pts.

4. Thankfully, it looks like "Allegiances of the Realms" will drop in September and give the new toys (command traits etc.) to the existing factions. [Edit: Well, this didn't happen! Here's hoping for 2017.]

On the Ironjawz in particular, have you seen @Chris Tomlin's running thread on his experiences? It seems that Destruction's new toys in the GH have already made them much more competitive by addressing what had been their major weakness (slow movement).

5. Definitely agree: Hopefully we'll see a lot of playtesting with Wyldwoods to inform potential comping. As a personal hunch, by the start of 2017, I suspect Sylvaneth will still be competitive but will require a lot of finesse to compete at the top tier consistently. They have multiple playstyles, and distinct weaknesses. Overall, they seem fun as hell.

Edited by scrubyandwells
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sunchaser    9
16 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Great Q. I can't playtest for a while, but hopefully we'll hear from others. I suspect it'll be quite situational and often tough to setup the S-Revenant stacking. For general ref, if a Liberator's bravery of 6 is the mean, you have to successfully cast Drycha's spell on a 6+ (which isn't too bad), then roll a 5 to cause 1 mortal wound, and then have an S-Revenant unit within 3" of the targeted unit in order to turn that roll into 1 mortal wound on a 4, or 2 on a 5, etc. If Drycha's scream could reach 3+ enemy units, it could have a decent effect, and of course it would be strong against low-bravery units/armies. 

I think the plan for me is to use them to engage the weaker units. Probably a MUST have against armies with low courage. Seems like it would be easy to counter as my opponent should know thats probably where Im headed haha.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To the point on TRevenents, don't forget about their per-phase re-roll in conjunction with their teleportation.  This makes a 9" charge practically anywhere on the board significantly more likely to pull off.  With rend and great mobility, they will be amazing at sniping wizards/war machines or grabbing objectives when you are out of position.

 

Plus the minis are sexy!

Edited by FalseVariableX
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scrubyandwells    364

Hi guys, in this part two, I'll look at how the following Sylvaneth list (2,000pts) could perform on the table. 

Treelord Ancient (300)
  Gift of Ghyran (Command Trait)
  Verdant Blessing (Deepwood Spell)
  Ranu’s Lamentiri (Artefact of Power)
Spirit of Durthu (400)
  Briarsheath (Artefact of Power)
Branchwych (100)
  Regrowth (Deepwood Spell)
  The Silverwood Circlet (Artefact of Power)
Kurnoth Hunters x9 (540)
  Scythes x6, Greatswords x3
Tree Revenants x20 (400)
Dryads x10 (120)
Gnarlroot Wargrove Battalion (80)
Free Spirits Battalion (40)
Household Battalion (20)

Overall:

This list is designed to make up for its glaring limitation, low-model count (Pitched Battles emphasize model count for controlling objectives), in four main ways:

  1. Using the Free Spirits battalion to move Spirit of Durthu + 9-combat-armed Kurnoth Hunters (or 3 w/ greatbows) into position to remove key threats and tip the balance of power as quickly as possible. [9/4/16 Update: I've found you can place your free Wyldwood vertically or horizontally along the table's center and use it as a first-turn checkpoint for your Free Spirits, which is often an advantageous situation, even if your opponent goes first in the second round.]  
  2. Generating Wyldwoods (in three ways) for buffs, mortal wounds, area denial, and teleporting.
  3. Waypiping Tree-Revenants to perform one or more of the following roles: directly supporting the Free Spirits' strike, taking out key backline units (e.g., weaker heroes and shooting), combat misdirection, early and/or late objective controlling with Verdurous Harmony replenishing their ranks, etc.
  4. Casting/unbinding up to 4 spells, with an emphasis on generating Wyldwoods and dealing mortal wounds with them, healing and replenishing key units, and picking good spots for Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield. 
    • The Treelord Ancient should be casting Deepwood Lore spells more frequently than the Branchwych, so the Ancient has Ranu’s Lamentiri, which gives +1 to cast or +2 to cast if it's a Deepwood Lore spell. 
    • Branchwych has the Silverwood Circlet in order to either heal (Regrowth), Mystic Shield, and/or Arcane Bolt from long range (up to 24”).

Additional:

  1. You could switch out 5 Tree-Revenants for a Loremaster to try and cast Hand of Glory on the Spirit of Durthu. Since this list’s model count is already low, and since the Loremaster doesn’t do much if he’s not successfully casting Hand of Glory, I suspect it’s better to go with the extra 5 Revenants, but it's not obvious.
    • Re-rolling hits and wounds via Hand of Glory on the Spirit of Durthu probably gives you a ~30% chance on average to inflict 18 damage per combat with his sword alone, or even more if he’s within 3” of a Wyldwood for D3 extra attacks. You "only" need a 5+ to cast Hand of Glory. Tempting! 
  2. An effective use of Wyldwoods: Try to get them down where your opponent will have to cross to reach an objective, such as by placing your free Wyldwood – at the beginning of the game before armies deploy – right by an objective. This could pay big dividends in Pitched Battles.
    • As an example, the Escalation Pitched Battle has 3 objectives running diagonally across the table. You and your opponent must deploy 12” away from each other. So if you go first, you can try and generate a Wyldwood and place it by one of the objectives, all the while staying 9” away from enemy models.
  3. Units in a Household battalion can prevent enemy units within 3” from retreating. This could be particularly useful late game for preventing enemy units from retreating out of combat and getting within 6” of an objective in order to contest/control that objective.
  4. Spirit of Durthu is the primary piece of this list’s hammer. To help keep him alive, I think the Briarsheath (-1 to all hit rolls) is a good choice, especially if you can combo it with his Groundshaking Stomp (-1 to hit him in combat that round, for a total of -2 to hit). You also may want to forfeit the Treelord Ancient's "Heed the Spirit-Song" command ability (see below), and instead make the Spirit of Durthu your General and give him Oaken Armour (+1 save) to further help keep him alive, although he's still highly-vulnerable to mortal wounds.
  5. On average, I suspect scythes are better than greatswords for Kurnoth Hunters. [9/4/16: Math-wise, greatswords are better, but I often find the following situations warrant taking the scythes. In general, though, greatswords are also awesome.] Once stuck in, you’ll always want to use their amazing Tanglethorn Thicket ability to re-roll their armor saves, but doing so only allows you to pile in 1”. In light of that rule, you might get caught in a situation where your opponent can keep the 1”-reach greatswords out of range, such as by screening your desired target with a lesser target.
    • Scythes also have -2 rend vs the greatswords’ -1, and some heroes and units can also ignore -1 rend, such as Saurus Guard. In general, -2 rend is huge in AoS. With it, Kurnoth can even cut into units that have a 2+ or 3+ save.
  6. As part of buffing the Free Spirits’ alphastrike, the Kurnoth Hunters’ Envoys of the Everqueen ability will allow the Spirit of Durthu to benefit from the Treelord Ancient’s Command Ability (Heed the Spirit-song, re-roll save rolls of 1), without requiring that the Ancient remain within 18” of the Spirit. This will also help keep the Ancient off the front lines, which I suspect you'll often want to do, even if it means he can't be shielded by the Spirit's Solemn Guardian ability.
  7. While 10 Dryads is 10 too few, it should be enough to be useful, e.g., screening the Treelord Ancient, contesting/controlling an objective, etc.
  8. I’m hopeful we’ll see competitive Sylvaneth lists emphasizing long-range shooting and magic, area of denial, etc.; but given the key functions of this list, I didn’t think Kurnoth Hunters with greatbows would be a good fit/ROI.
    • Overall, I’m a little concerned about whether you can get reliable value from the greatbow Kurnoths. While 30” range is incredible, the average damage output seems to be about 50% less than the scythes and greatswords. [9/14/16: Recent experience has said you'll probably want at least one unit with greatbows to help do early damage vs dangerous units, e.g., a Thundertusk.]
    • To state the obvious: damage output is king. Since a lot of AoS armies get around the board really quickly, the combat-focused-and-higher-damage-output Kurnoths seem like the clear choice here.

Would love to hear more views and experiences. Thanks for reading.

Edited by scrubyandwells

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nico    1,980

Just on the shooting point - it's normal for shooting output to be a fraction of melee output - because (a) you can deal shooting damage without reprisal that turn; (b) you can do damage earlier than a normal speed melee unit; and (c) you can focus fire and pick off heroes. I would playtest these guys before deciding if their shooting is viable.

The effective 30 plus movement range means that cannon crews are in for a well-earned shredding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scrubyandwells    364
15 hours ago, Nico said:

Just on the shooting point - it's normal for shooting output to be a fraction of melee output - because (a) you can deal shooting damage without reprisal that turn; (b) you can do damage earlier than a normal speed melee unit; and (c) you can focus fire and pick off heroes. I would playtest these guys before deciding if their shooting is viable.

The effective 30 plus movement range means that cannon crews are in for a well-earned shredding.

Yeah definitely agree re: playtesting first. Most of this thinking is in terms of tournies...but if a tourney allows for a sideboard, Kurnoths with greatbows would be perfect, since you could switch out for them whenever you're facing a slow-moving force. It just seems that a lot of armies have ways of moving quickly, which could diminish the value of the greatbow-Kurnoths, especially with the damage-output sacrifice you're making with them. It'll be interesting to see in playtesting if the Sylvaneth's other options (teleporting and magic in particular) could be a sufficient substitute for dealing with backline units like artillery, wizards, other long-range shooters, etc. 

Edited by scrubyandwells

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jsewell    18

List wise, this is where I'm at with theorizing.   Still have free points to work with.

 

-Free Spirits 40
Durthu 400
Kurnoth Hunters (scythes) x3 180
Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes) x3 180
Kuroth Hunters (bows) x6 360

Drycha  280
Tree revenants x5  100
Tree revenants x5  100
Dryads x20   240

1880 pts total


I like the free spirits battalion a lot.   Scythe Kurnoth Hunters and Durthu are very killy, so giving them a lot more movement is amazing for 40 points.

With the final 120 points, I'm considering a Branchwych so I'll have another wizard and hero for spells and artefact.  It is also possible to drop 10 dryads to grab a Treeman, but I think I would rather keep the model count from getting that low and having a defensive piece like the Dryads + a caster to hide behind them.  

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scrubyandwells    364
On 7/23/2016 at 10:18 PM, jsewell said:

-Free Spirits 40
Durthu 400
Kurnoth Hunters (scythes) x3 180
Kurnoth Hunters (scythes) x3 180
Kurnoth Hunters (bows) x6 360

Drycha  280
Tree revenants x5  100
Tree revenants x5  100
Dryads x20   240

1880 pts total

I like the free spirits battalion a lot.   Scythe Kurnoth Hunters and Durthu are very killy, so giving them a lot more movement is amazing for 40 points.

With the final 120 points, I'm considering a Branchwych so I'll have another wizard and hero for spells and artefact.  It is also possible to drop 10 dryads to grab a Treeman, but I think I would rather keep the model count from getting that low and having a defensive piece like the Dryads + a caster to hide behind them.  

The above + a Branchwych seems like a strong list.

  • 30 models to control/contest/capture objectives, which seems solid, given the emphasis on model count for winning Pitched Battles. 
    • The Tree-Revenants' Waypiping also provides nice tactical flexibility, e.g., getting behind lines to take out shooting and/or 5-wound heroes.
  • Long-range shooters doing ~8 damage (with average rolls) per shooting phase, who could also help control/contest/capture objectives.
  • As you mentioned, Spirit of Durthu + 6 Kurnoth Hunters with scythes for (semi-)alphastriking via the Free-Spirits-battalion free move + placing the free Wyldwood in a good spot for teleporting.
    • Depending on the targets, Durthu could be doing ~12 damage (or more if he's fighting within 3" of a Wyldwood), and 6 Kurnoth Hunters with scythes could be doing ~20 damage with average rolls. 
  • Drycha as a second early-game (semi-)alphastrike in the form of her Colony of Flitterfuries mortal-wound bomb. 
    • The Free-Spirits-battalion-combined-with-Drycha-bomb could be incredibly devastating on your first turn and make it difficult for your opponent to catch back up. At the same time, it seems very high risk, high reward. If the dice aren't being kind, over 1,000pts could be highly exposed to counter attack.

What were you thinking artefact- and spell-wise? The Silverwood Circlet + Regrowth on the Branchwych might be nice: healing D6 wounds from up to 24" away. If you thought you could keep her screened while still staying within 18" of key models for healing (like Durthu and Drycha), you might do Ranu's Lamentiri for +1/+2 to cast. 

It'd be interesting to playtest Pitched Battles alternating between a Branchwych vs another 10 Dryads. The 10 Dryads might be more consistently valuable because of the need for bodies. At the same time, if the Branchwych can keep important models/units healed, generate a key Wyldwood early game, or other tactic, then she could be a big part of winning.

I like your list. Would love to hear how it performs on the table whenever it's ready to rock and roll.  

Edited by scrubyandwells
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scrubyandwells    364
On 7/22/2016 at 6:51 AM, Chris Tomlin said:

This thread is a great read. Thanks for posting... it's just as helpful for opponents as it is Sylvaneth players ;)

Thanks, @Chris Tomlin:) Yeah, that's the hope.... Thanks, by the way, for your awesome write ups on the Ironjawz. Really enjoying them.

Edited by scrubyandwells

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On July 23, 2016 at 0:47 AM, Nico said:

Just on the shooting point - it's normal for shooting output to be a fraction of melee output - because (a) you can deal shooting damage without reprisal that turn; (b) you can do damage earlier than a normal speed melee unit; and (c) you can focus fire and pick off heroes. I would playtest these guys before deciding if their shooting is viable.

The effective 30 plus movement range means that cannon crews are in for a well-earned shredding.

You can also still shoot, even while engaged in melee, unless something in the generals handbook changed that...

I'm a fan of the hunters with great bows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×