AoS 2 - Legion Of Azgorh Discussion

[Entombet]

Thanks FW my 2 handead weapon bull centaurs are ****** now, dont hawe any plans buing new ones.

[NemoVonUtopia]

The only things I don't like about the update is deathmasks being forced to have a pistol, losing great weapon options, the dreadquake mortar changes since the price didn't change, and how more power works for the iron daemon.

Either I have to buy 2+ more command squad sets for my fireglaives or use spare ironsworn models and have them die first 

While the dreadquake mortar did get more reliable extra shots and no minimum range I feel like losing the ability to do 2d6 damage per shot makes it worse off than before because it didn't get a points change. 

I am ecstatic overall that I can immediately play an updated army. I was expecting to have to wait a week or two.

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, Lobeau said:

The Chaos Seige Giant was moved to the Monstrous Arcanum, and looks like it lost a number of attacks down from 2D6 at full health to 7 now, and declining to 6, 5 so on and so on. Not sure about that. On on hand you know how many attacks you're getting, and remove the chance of rolling for only two or three attacks, but on the other hand if you decided to take one, part of the fun in running him in a going for broke hoping for 12 attacks.

Is there a model for a Chaos Siege Giant?

[Lobeau]

1 minute ago, Malakithe said:

Is there a model for a Chaos Siege Giant?

Ya there is, it was discontinued years ago, and really wasn't widely liked because the sculpt was a bit wonky. I however loved it and searched for 3 years until I could find one to buy. So I'm a bit partial to using it when I can =P

[mattbarker]

Yeah, I don't like the forced to have a pistol thing. Seems far too random and if the only reason is to buy more command sets then that feels a little underhand as a justification to buy more things. Plus is also that means you're left with actual fireglaive models you can't use. At £42 for 10 its a lot to ask to have 3 sat around on their lonesome because we've replace 3 with a different £20 set!   

I also actually have a castellan with a great weapon from the 3 pack demonsmith set which I guess I now won't bother painting seen as he has no rules! 

[mattbarker]

7 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Is there a model for a Chaos Siege Giant?

Seen a bunch of conversions that seem to be hybrids based around the aleguzzler ones and various troll things from the Hobbit / LoTR ranges. 

[FERRUMITE]

I shall eat my piece of humble pie for doubting FW earlier this week! Thanks to FW for giving us fluffy rules and lore and traits! I’m so hyped for 2.0 now, it’s going to be awesome with these new battalions and rules!!!

[NemoVonUtopia]

My favorite change is giving fireglaive a 4+ to wound in melee. It always seemed a bit off to me that having ax blades on the gun was equivalent to poking them rusty knives.

[Aaron Schmidt]

I'm a noob when it comes to Forgeworld armies. Where can I find the points for the Azgorh units?

Nevermind. I didn't think they'd be in the same PDF.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Aaron Schmidt

[Kaleb Daark]

2 hours ago, Entombet said:

Thanks FW my 2 handead weapon bull centaurs are ****** now, dont hawe any plans buing new ones.

problem was that this was an army list option in the original throne of chaos Legion list.  They shelved it as there are no models with that option, and obviously we're not going to see any now.  then again,  there's no skullcracker anymore or siege giant but that hasn't stopped them from putting it in the  compendium update...

[NemoVonUtopia]

I read the product description of the new rules on the Forge World website and it mentions that chaos dwarves are based in Ulgu. While I know everyone can come from any realm it's interesting since the rules mention their affinity to Aqshy.

[Browncoat89]

Hey guys! Allegience abilities, artefacts, slight points drop, new battalion with the bull centaurs check out the love!!

[Lobeau]

4 minutes ago, NemoVonUtopia said:

I read the product description of the new rules on the Forge World website and it mentions that chaos dwarves are based in Ulgu. While I know everyone can come from any realm it's interesting since the rules mention their affinity to Aqshy.

I read into that too, it could be a hint that new stuff is coming whenever they get to the shadow elves in Ulgu, and it also mentioned how we like killing grots... So maybe then the moonclan comes out we'll sre something as well? That's all just speculation of course, but its always nice to have a little fluff here and there.

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

As a long,  long time Chaos Dwarf player I am over the moon we have had an update like this and on the eve of the release of a new version, not as an afterthought months down the line. If any of the GW crew read anything here THANK YOU!!!!!! 

It's nice just to be involved after being so long out in the cold

There is lots I love about this update, the Centaur Battalion is a nice unexpected surprise. For the fluff of it 'marked for death' is so cool, imagine these hulking monsters preparing for battle and singling out a single unit... "they are having it!". It may be a tad expensive but worth a test run or two I reckon

I love the legion abilities, also by the way guys WE HAVE LEGION ABILITIES!! Again very thematic fluff wise, we bring the Dark clouds with us like at the Battle of Minis Tirith in LOTR and I think the ignore first wounds can be an absolute game changer, we always did make the best armour 

[ForumAccount]

1 hour ago, NemoVonUtopia said:

I read the product description of the new rules on the Forge World website and it mentions that chaos dwarves are based in Ulgu. While I know everyone can come from any realm it's interesting since the rules mention their affinity to Aqshy.

I was thinking about this well and I believe that the wording indicates that the Chaos Dwarf race as a whole originates in Aqshy, but the Legion of Azgorh still exists as its own faction of the Chaos Dwarfs and they have based themselves in Ulgu.

 

If you guys didn't notice, they also rolled back the "Zharr Goroth" keyword to "Dawi Zharr."

[NemoVonUtopia]

Since the blackshard armor is a battle trait artillery, bull centaurs, and fireborn all benefit too, right? 

[Lamekh]

I'm hoping so, but I did a quick search through the warscroll and only Castellans and Ironsworn have Blackshard Armour mentioned ?

[swarmofseals]

I'm not really sure what to make of these changes. Having the army not be invalidated entirely is obviously nice, of course. The rest though seems like a mixed bag.

 

Fireglaives - Improved

Spoiler

Previously a unit of 10 Fireglaives would do an average of 3.39 rend 1 damage against non-monsters and 5.08 rend 1 damage against monsters. Assuming you just don't take a Deathmask at all, 10 Fireglaives do an average of 1.94 mortal wounds and 2.92 rend 1 damage when standing still and 1.67 mortal wounds and 2.5 rend 1 damage when on the move. 

So basically we lose the reroll 1's for saves against shooting and the naptha bomb in exchange for an overall substantial improvement in damage. If you use my weighting system for rend and mortal wounds, Fireglaives now are basically as efficient as if they were firing at monsters even when on the move. When standing still they are markedly more efficient. Under the old system bonuses to wound or rerolls to wound from the castellan and/or BSB have more of an impact than they do now, but I still think it's an unmitigated improvement. Fireglaives are also marginally better in melee.

Ironsworn - Mixed bag, mostly worse

Spoiler

No more reroll 1's against ranged, but spiteshields are slightly better as they trigger regardless of rend. That said, the shields also don't benefit from cover bonuses or other boosts to save. Small squads are cheaper now by 10 points but the massive regiment cost is unchanged. The champion also lost his bonus attack.

Battle Standard - Improved

Spoiler

Doesn't need to plant banner, gives both bonuses and ranges on both bonuses are improved, albeit the bravery bonus is "wholly within" now.

Castellan - Mixed bag, mostly worse

Spoiler

Lost spiteshield and armor rerolls as well as the great weapon option. Being able to use the command ability even if not the general is great, but the command ability matters less now that fewer things scale off the wound roll. Also, this command ability improvement is a change in the basic rules and not the warscroll specifically, so it's hard to call that an improvement. He would have been much better off had his warscroll stayed the same.

Daemonsmith - Mixed bag

Spoiler

Blood of Hashut is better, but I'm not sure how often a Daemonsmith will be close enough to use it and survive long enough to use it more than once. Ash Storm is both better and worse. It suppresses running better and the long range is excellent, but it's now only -1 to hit penalty instead of -2. 

Bull Centaur Renders - Mixed bag, mostly worse

Spoiler

Lost weapon options including the best one. Now gets +1 to charge inherently without the Taur'ruk. The problem is that these guys just aren't very efficient. Both their defensive and offensive efficiency and speed are all merely OK. They don't really stand out in any way. Even the buff from the Taur'ruk command ability their offensive efficiency doesn't impress.

Bull Centaur Taur'ruk - Sidegrade

Spoiler

The major change is the command ability, which now buffs hit rolls instead of allowing run and charge. This mostly seems worse to me, but in some situations it will be better. I'll call it a wash.

K'daii Fireborn - Mixed bag, mostly better

Spoiler

They gained an attack but lost reroll 1's to hit. Overall this is a slight upgrade, and a more substantial one if you have some other way to give them reroll 1's to hit. Kiss of fire is slightly weaker offensively but no longer hits your own units. Overall their offensive efficiency is similar to BCR (relatively unremarkable but not bad either).

 Burning Bright is totally different now. Before, K'daii would be at their best against rendless troops but now they are actually weak against chaff attacks while being relatively stronger against high rend. The good news is that they are 20 points cheaper now as well. Before they were 4.44 points per effective wound against rend 0 and 13.33 points per effective wound against rend 2. Now they are 7.78 points per effective wound against all non-mortal damage. 

Before they had a clear role in tying down and cleaning up chaff. The bonus against rend - combined well with their damaging but non-rendy attacks. Now they are a bit more consistent across the board but kinda work at cross purposes unless you can get them stuck in against something that has both high rend and low armor (a relative rarity).

Iron Daemon - Mixed bag, unsure

Spoiler

Crushing bulk doesn't fall off quite as steeply. The big change is in "More Power!". Before this worked pretty reliably until the ID had taken a fair bit of damage and then became rather unusable. Now you can use it any time (you get the bonus attacks even if you take damage) but are very likely to take damage if you boost it up to 4d6 and still reasonably likely to take damage even at 3d6. It is worth noting, however, that the new battle trait really helps here. You're unlikely to take any other damage in your own shooting phase, so really this is now d3-1 damage rather than d3 damage.

I think without the battle trait it'd be a clear nerf, but with it I'm really not sure. It might even be a slight buff.

Skullcracker - Nerfed (probably)

Spoiler

Unlike the Iron Daemon, I'm pretty sure this one is a straight nerf. The default number of attacks is now simply lower than before, and although the number of attacks doesn't fall off with damage anymore the wound roll does instead. It can be scaled up to be as good as it was previously, but at the cost of very likely taking damage. I think the Skullcracker will perform worse for most of its lifespan but will perhaps bit a little better when almost dead. 

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher - Mostly buffed

Spoiler

The removal of minimum range is a straight up buff. The daemonsmith bonus has changed from +1 to hit to +1 attack. In the case where you aren't targeting a 10+ model unit, the average damage is exactly the same. The bonus vs. large units is now +1 to hit instead of reroll 1's to wound. If no daemonsmith is present the average damage is improved from 2.34 to 2.67. With a daemonsmith present, the average damage is improved from 3.12 to 3.55. The only loss here is the -1 bravery debuff.

Dreadquake Mortar -  Nerfed

Spoiler

I really don't understand why this needed to be nerfed so badly. The removal of minimum range is nice, and while most are reacting to slave ogre changes as a nerf, the math doesn't quite bear that out so clearly. Before, whipping the ogre would lead to an average of .591 successful wounds (before save and damage roll) and an average of .33 mortal wounds taken. Now it leads to an average of .741 successful wounds (before save and damage roll) but an average of .66 mortal wounds taken (note that this assumes a daemonsmith is in proximity). Note that you can also whip the ogre even if there is no daemonsmith present. 

On the downside, the model now is 4+ to hit, but gets +1 to hit with a Daemonsmith present. The big nerf though is that instead of 2d6 damage against large units it's now d6 with a reroll. So before it was 7 damage on average, now it's 4.5 on average (albeit with a lower standard deviation). The ability to suppress running has been lost completely. 

And it's 20 points more expensive. Even when firing at large units with a Daemonsmith present the efficiency is mediocre at best

Magma Cannon - Nerfed (very slightly, but may actually be better anyway)

Spoiler

Basically unchanged, now +1 to the magma roll instead of roll 2 and pick the highest. +1 is an average of 4.17 mortal wounds, while roll 2 and pick the highest is an average of 4.28. 

It's worth noting though that in the new edition the Magma Cannon is even more tactically valuable as it doesn't get penalized by "Look Out, Sir!". This is one of a very few shooting attacks left that is still fantastic for character sniping.

Drazhoath The Ashen - Nerfed (I know this will be controversial)

Spoiler

There are basically three changes in play here. His blazing body ability is better, but that's not really a huge part of his warscroll. The second change is that he has a command ability, which is a strict upgrade. The command ability is a relatively narrow one, however, as it's only particularly helpful if there are multiple units taking battleshock wholly within 24" of him. It may be that this will turn out to be quite good -- I think it depends a lot on your list. 

The big problem is that the Hellshard Amulet was heavily nerfed. Instead of negating any wound or mortal wound on a 5+ it now only negates wounds made by melee weapons. That's even worse than only working in the combat phase! 

Shar'Tor The Executioner - Sidegrade

Spoiler

Darktide reaping is now better and he has a built in +1 to charge rolls. His mask and command ability both changed dramatically. The command ability is certainly more dramatic now and makes up for the change of the Taur'ruk's command ability. I'd say overall it's quite a bit more powerful. The Mask of the Executioner turned from a one-shot horde buster with a side of charge buffing to a reusable mortal wound generator. The top end of the mask is lower than before, but it should be a lot more reliable. My main concern is that the mask no longer really adds something new that the army can't already do (with the horde wiping potential) as the mask is now somewhat redundant with what Magma Cannons continue to do well. 

Still though, my impression is that this guy is better particularly if you are taking a centaur heavy army. 

Blackshard Warhost - Depends on how you look at it

Spoiler

It's 20 points cheaper, but the bonus now only applies to melee attacks. I can't really guess as to whether +1 Bravery or reroll battleshock is better. Of course, the reroll 1's to hit ability when not moving is now native to Fireglaives so there isn't really any loss here. It just adds less than it used to (not that it was particularly good to begin with). 

Hashut's Wrath Artillery Train - Sidegrade

Spoiler

It's just totally different now. -80 points, no bonuses to run and charge rolls or rerolls on 1's to hit. Now it basically gives your Daemonsmith infinite range for its war-machine bonuses. If you want the extra command point and artefact then sure, go for it.

Execution Herd - New

Allegiance Package - New

Spoiler

This is new, so in some ways it's an upgrade. It really has to be compared against the generic Chaos allegiance package though. I haven't seen what's changed in GHB2018 yet, so it's hard to comment. Blackshard armor is interesting and encourages an MSU approach to list building. Burning skies will be garbage some of the time and fantastic some of the time. Fireball is nice, but it's not that great compared to an entire spell lore. Of course, if they had given us access to the lore of Aqshy regardless of realm, then that'd have been a really big game (probably OP as the lore of Aqshy is so good). Relentless and Grotesque are both OK but nothing to write home about. The Armor is nice but I'm pretty sure there is a realm artefact that does exactly the same thing.

All in all I'm very underwhelmed by these abilities and wouldn't be surprised if generic Chaos ends up being better (unless flying heavy armies become very popular).  

We gained access to Monsters of Chaos as allies but lost access to Brayherds and Warherds. 

 

Overall I don't think things have changed drastically at least from a competitive standpoint. The new stuff is definitely great from a "rule of cool" perspective, particularly the Execution Herd. I fear though that competitively the army is getting narrower and narrower. I'm having a hard time imagining anything aside from massed Magma Cannons and Fireglaives being competitive. Something like 9x10 Fireglaives, a BSB, a Daemonsmith, 4 Magma Cannons and 2 Jabberslythes seems like it could do some work, but I'm not really sure that it's even all that good.

[Andreas]

I agree with most of the above post. Except Draz but that is mainly due to the new scenarios where you want speed and wizards. So I dont think he got stronger but I think he got more important. To me the daemonsmith looks much stronger with the extra range in the spell and that its both shooting and combat. It's a bit like LoN's dread, I take it.

But most of all I think the rules got much cooler and clearer even if they didn't get that much stronger.

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Andreas

[NemoVonUtopia]

Can units choose not to have a leader? I don't remember seeing anything saying that they are but since It does not say something like "1 model may" it seems non optional. I don't know if this is ever covered because I don't think there is any other unit whose leader is detrimental. I don't know why the castellan and deathmasks can't take dual hand weapons as that is one of the options in their kit and it seems like a lot of these changes are based on what models have available.

I would say that ash storm is overall better since it now affects melee attacks too. While -2 to hit was nice there are a lot of armies that have no or weak shooting that ash storm was almost pointless against.

I didn't realize that fireborn don't hurt friendly models until you mentioned it. That opens up using their long attack range to sit behind 2 ranks of ironsworn to protect them from being hit.

[Granitebrow]

Well, hopefully it turns out to the be case where the army becomes greater than the sum of its parts.

[swarmofseals]

9 minutes ago, Andreas said:

I agree with most of the above post. Except Draz but that is mainly due to the new scenarios where you want speed and wizards. So I dont think he got stronger but I think he got more important. 

But most of all I think the rules got much cooler and clearer even if they didn't get that much stronger.

My problem with Draz remains that while he does check a couple of important boxes, the fact that he is the only thing in the army that does check those boxes and is both expensive and fragile means that while he can theoretically fill those roles, in practice he really can't. Now that his 5+ protects from neither shooting nor magic it's even more true than before.

8 minutes ago, NemoVonUtopia said:

Can units choose not to have a leader? 

I would say that ash storm is overall better since it now affects melee attacks too. 

I didn't realize that fireborn don't hurt friendly models until you mentioned it. That opens up using their long attack range to sit behind 2 ranks of ironsworn to protect them from being hit.

Honestly I have no idea, but given that the units are sold in lots of 10 and you have to buy the command separately I think there is a good argument to be made that you shouldn't be forced to take a leader. It's utterly ridiculous that we are even in this situation. IMO the best solution would be to just condense the fireglaives and pistol into "pyrelock firearms". There, now the leader isn't worse.

I totally missed that about Ash Storm and will update my post to reflect it. With that in mind I'm comfortable calling it a solid buff.

Good point about the fireborn's reach.

7 minutes ago, Granitebrow said:

Well, hopefully it turns out to the be case where the army becomes greater than the sum of its parts.

I'm hopeful of this too as LoA just looks fantastic on the table. I'm not optimistic though, at least not compared to most recent armies. Basically every recent release (Idoneth, DoK, Nurgle, LoN in particular) have units that are more efficient than LoA gets at baseline AND have more/more powerful synergies and abilities AND have fewer gaps in the roster. 

[mattbarker]

Is it just me or does blackshsrd armour now apply to all? 

"Blackshard Armour: The armour 
worn by each of the warriors in the 
Legion of Azgorh..." 

Plus the burning skies trait always applies so no reason that one should be conditional either should it? 

This means that each unit, not just fireglaives and ironsworn get it - given there is no mention of it as a keyword or any other identifier on the scrolls to suggest it applies or doesn't. Or that just my understanding? 

My understanding, to clarify, is that "blackshard armour" is a trait belonging to Legion of Azgorh - as long as the unit has that keyword, it applies.

Edited June 29, 2018 by mattbarker

[Browncoat89]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

I'm not really sure what to make of these changes. Having the army not be invalidated entirely is obviously nice, of course. The rest though seems like a mixed bag.

 

Fireglaives - Improved

  Reveal hidden contents

Previously a unit of 10 Fireglaives would do an average of 3.39 rend 1 damage against non-monsters and 5.08 rend 1 damage against monsters. Assuming you just don't take a Deathmask at all, 10 Fireglaives do an average of 1.94 mortal wounds and 2.92 rend 1 damage when standing still and 1.67 mortal wounds and 2.5 rend 1 damage when on the move. 

So basically we lose the reroll 1's for saves against shooting and the naptha bomb in exchange for an overall substantial improvement in damage. If you use my weighting system for rend and mortal wounds, Fireglaives now are basically as efficient as if they were firing at monsters even when on the move. When standing still they are markedly more efficient. Under the old system bonuses to wound or rerolls to wound from the castellan and/or BSB have more of an impact than they do now, but I still think it's an unmitigated improvement. Fireglaives are also marginally better in melee.

Ironsworn - Mixed bag, mostly worse

  Reveal hidden contents

No more reroll 1's against ranged, but spiteshields are slightly better as they trigger regardless of rend. That said, the shields also don't benefit from cover bonuses or other boosts to save. Small squads are cheaper now by 10 points but the massive regiment cost is unchanged. The champion also lost his bonus attack.

Battle Standard - Improved

  Reveal hidden contents

Doesn't need to plant banner, gives both bonuses and ranges on both bonuses are improved, albeit the bravery bonus is "wholly within" now.

Castellan - Mixed bag, mostly worse

  Reveal hidden contents

Lost spiteshield and armor rerolls as well as the great weapon option. Being able to use the command ability even if not the general is great, but the command ability matters less now that fewer things scale off the wound roll. Also, this command ability improvement is a change in the basic rules and not the warscroll specifically, so it's hard to call that an improvement. He would have been much better off had his warscroll stayed the same.

Daemonsmith - Mixed bag

  Reveal hidden contents

Blood of Hashut is better, but I'm not sure how often a Daemonsmith will be close enough to use it and survive long enough to use it more than once. Ash Storm is both better and worse. It suppresses running better and the long range is excellent, but it's now only -1 to hit penalty instead of -2. 

Bull Centaur Renders - Mixed bag, mostly worse

  Reveal hidden contents

Lost weapon options including the best one. Now gets +1 to charge inherently without the Taur'ruk. The problem is that these guys just aren't very efficient. Both their defensive and offensive efficiency and speed are all merely OK. They don't really stand out in any way. Even the buff from the Taur'ruk command ability their offensive efficiency doesn't impress.

Bull Centaur Taur'ruk - Sidegrade

  Reveal hidden contents

The major change is the command ability, which now buffs hit rolls instead of allowing run and charge. This mostly seems worse to me, but in some situations it will be better. I'll call it a wash.

K'daii Fireborn - Mixed bag, mostly better

  Reveal hidden contents

They gained an attack but lost reroll 1's to hit. Overall this is a slight upgrade, and a more substantial one if you have some other way to give them reroll 1's to hit. Kiss of fire is slightly weaker offensively but no longer hits your own units. Overall their offensive efficiency is similar to BCR (relatively unremarkable but not bad either).

 Burning Bright is totally different now. Before, K'daii would be at their best against rendless troops but now they are actually weak against chaff attacks while being relatively stronger against high rend. The good news is that they are 20 points cheaper now as well. Before they were 4.44 points per effective wound against rend 0 and 13.33 points per effective wound against rend 2. Now they are 7.78 points per effective wound against all non-mortal damage. 

Before they had a clear role in tying down and cleaning up chaff. The bonus against rend - combined well with their damaging but non-rendy attacks. Now they are a bit more consistent across the board but kinda work at cross purposes unless you can get them stuck in against something that has both high rend and low armor (a relative rarity).

Iron Daemon - Mixed bag, unsure

  Reveal hidden contents

Crushing bulk doesn't fall off quite as steeply. The big change is in "More Power!". Before this worked pretty reliably until the ID had taken a fair bit of damage and then became rather unusable. Now you can use it any time (you get the bonus attacks even if you take damage) but are very likely to take damage if you boost it up to 4d6 and still reasonably likely to take damage even at 3d6. It is worth noting, however, that the new battle trait really helps here. You're unlikely to take any other damage in your own shooting phase, so really this is now d3-1 damage rather than d3 damage.

I think without the battle trait it'd be a clear nerf, but with it I'm really not sure. It might even be a slight buff.

Skullcracker - Nerfed (probably)

  Reveal hidden contents

Unlike the Iron Daemon, I'm pretty sure this one is a straight nerf. The default number of attacks is now simply lower than before, and although the number of attacks doesn't fall off with damage anymore the wound roll does instead. It can be scaled up to be as good as it was previously, but at the cost of very likely taking damage. I think the Skullcracker will perform worse for most of its lifespan but will perhaps bit a little better when almost dead. 

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher - Mostly buffed

  Reveal hidden contents

The removal of minimum range is a straight up buff. The daemonsmith bonus has changed from +1 to hit to +1 attack. In the case where you aren't targeting a 10+ model unit, the average damage is exactly the same. The bonus vs. large units is now +1 to hit instead of reroll 1's to wound. If no daemonsmith is present the average damage is improved from 2.34 to 2.67. With a daemonsmith present, the average damage is improved from 3.12 to 3.55. The only loss here is the -1 bravery debuff.

Dreadquake Mortar -  Nerfed

  Reveal hidden contents

I really don't understand why this needed to be nerfed so badly. The removal of minimum range is nice, and while most are reacting to slave ogre changes as a nerf, the math doesn't quite bear that out so clearly. Before, whipping the ogre would lead to an average of .591 successful wounds (before save and damage roll) and an average of .33 mortal wounds taken. Now it leads to an average of .741 successful wounds (before save and damage roll) but an average of .66 mortal wounds taken (note that this assumes a daemonsmith is in proximity). Note that you can also whip the ogre even if there is no daemonsmith present. 

On the downside, the model now is 4+ to hit, but gets +1 to hit with a Daemonsmith present. The big nerf though is that instead of 2d6 damage against large units it's now d6 with a reroll. So before it was 7 damage on average, now it's 4.5 on average (albeit with a lower standard deviation). The ability to suppress running has been lost completely. 

And it's 20 points more expensive. Even when firing at large units with a Daemonsmith present the efficiency is mediocre at best

Magma Cannon - Nerfed (very slightly, but may actually be better anyway)

  Reveal hidden contents

Basically unchanged, now +1 to the magma roll instead of roll 2 and pick the highest. +1 is an average of 4.17 mortal wounds, while roll 2 and pick the highest is an average of 4.28. 

It's worth noting though that in the new edition the Magma Cannon is even more tactically valuable as it doesn't get penalized by "Look Out, Sir!". This is one of a very few shooting attacks left that is still fantastic for character sniping.

Drazhoath The Ashen - Nerfed (I know this will be controversial)

  Reveal hidden contents

There are basically three changes in play here. His blazing body ability is better, but that's not really a huge part of his warscroll. The second change is that he has a command ability, which is a strict upgrade. The command ability is a relatively narrow one, however, as it's only particularly helpful if there are multiple units taking battleshock wholly within 24" of him. It may be that this will turn out to be quite good -- I think it depends a lot on your list. 

The big problem is that the Hellshard Amulet was heavily nerfed. Instead of negating any wound or mortal wound on a 5+ it now only negates wounds made by melee weapons. That's even worse than only working in the combat phase! 

Shar'Tor The Executioner - Sidegrade

  Reveal hidden contents

Darktide reaping is now better and he has a built in +1 to charge rolls. His mask and command ability both changed dramatically. The command ability is certainly more dramatic now and makes up for the change of the Taur'ruk's command ability. I'd say overall it's quite a bit more powerful. The Mask of the Executioner turned from a one-shot horde buster with a side of charge buffing to a reusable mortal wound generator. The top end of the mask is lower than before, but it should be a lot more reliable. My main concern is that the mask no longer really adds something new that the army can't already do (with the horde wiping potential) as the mask is now somewhat redundant with what Magma Cannons continue to do well. 

Still though, my impression is that this guy is better particularly if you are taking a centaur heavy army. 

Blackshard Warhost - Depends on how you look at it

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It's 20 points cheaper, but the bonus now only applies to melee attacks. I can't really guess as to whether +1 Bravery or reroll battleshock is better. Of course, the reroll 1's to hit ability when not moving is now native to Fireglaives so there isn't really any loss here. It just adds less than it used to (not that it was particularly good to begin with). 

Hashut's Wrath Artillery Train - Sidegrade

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It's just totally different now. -80 points, no bonuses to run and charge rolls or rerolls on 1's to hit. Now it basically gives your Daemonsmith infinite range for its war-machine bonuses. If you want the extra command point and artefact then sure, go for it.

Execution Herd - New

Allegiance Package - New

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This is new, so in some ways it's an upgrade. It really has to be compared against the generic Chaos allegiance package though. I haven't seen what's changed in GHB2018 yet, so it's hard to comment. Blackshard armor is interesting and encourages an MSU approach to list building. Burning skies will be garbage some of the time and fantastic some of the time. Fireball is nice, but it's not that great compared to an entire spell lore. Of course, if they had given us access to the lore of Aqshy regardless of realm, then that'd have been a really big game (probably OP as the lore of Aqshy is so good). Relentless and Grotesque are both OK but nothing to write home about. The Armor is nice but I'm pretty sure there is a realm artefact that does exactly the same thing.

All in all I'm very underwhelmed by these abilities and wouldn't be surprised if generic Chaos ends up being better (unless flying heavy armies become very popular).  

We gained access to Monsters of Chaos as allies but lost access to Brayherds and Warherds. 

 

Overall I don't think things have changed drastically at least from a competitive standpoint. The new stuff is definitely great from a "rule of cool" perspective, particularly the Execution Herd. I fear though that competitively the army is getting narrower and narrower. I'm having a hard time imagining anything aside from massed Magma Cannons and Fireglaives being competitive. Something like 9x10 Fireglaives, a BSB, a Daemonsmith, 4 Magma Cannons and 2 Jabberslythes seems like it could do some work, but I'm not really sure that it's even all that good.

I believe any army can use the lore of any realm if they just thematically state they are from that realm. That was the point of the realm spell lores was to give everyone a big bag to pick from (only one realm at a time though of course).

[NemoVonUtopia]

4 minutes ago, mattbarker said:

Is it just me or does blackshsrd armour now apply to all? 

"Blackshard Armour: The armour 
worn by each of the warriors in the 
Legion of Azgorh..." 

Plus the burning skies trait always applies so no reason that one should be conditional either should it? 

This means that each unit, not just fireglaives and ironsworn get it - given there is no mention of it as a keyword or any other identifier on the scrolls to suggest it applies or doesn't. Or that just my understanding? 

That is my understanding too which is nice for bull centaurs and fireborn ect. 

Also, is there a consensus on if blackshard armor works on mortal wounds? I may be reading too closely and confusing myself since the new rulebook says 

"After they(mortal wounds) have been allocated, a mortal wound is treated on the same manner as any other wound for all rules purposes"

At first I took that as confirmation that it would work but I read the blackshard armor rule which says

"The first wound that is allocated..."

My doubt hinges on the interpretation that mortal wounds are only treated like normal wounds after allocation so during allocation they would still be mortal wounds and this blackshard armor wouldn't apply. 

Now I don't put too much stock in that argument but I like to be prepared if I ever face someone that nitpicky and have a counter argument prepared other than kicking them.