AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[TheOtherJosh]

On 7/14/2018 at 5:15 PM, ianob said:

It definitely doesn’t have zero ambiguity I agree, but Endless spells do have a min and max unit size, and you don’t get to just *use things* in matched play if they have  points values without paying for them, so  no idea why people would think this would be an exception to the rule.

You only pay for things before the game begins. Anything summoned onto the board after the game begins doesn’t use the points mechanic anymore.

eg Summoned Daemons ... no longer use any reserve points. You would need to have your available models. But I don’t need to pay reserve points to bring on a new Blue Horrors Unit. I just need to have them in my available models to place on table. (And fulfil Any in-game mechanic required.)

So, the player would need to have their own copy of the model in their “bag of tricks”. Because one can’t summon stuff to the board if you don’t have the model. (Because even though they are stealing the spell, they’re not stealing the model from their opponent.)

Edited July 16, 2018 by TheOtherJosh

[AaronWilson]

So I've got my first 2K game this week, going to take a lot of photos and do a battle report for you guys. Here's what I'm taking - 

Allegiance : Tzeentch 

Lord of Change - 380
Artefact - Gryph Feather Charm 
Lore of Change - Tzeentchs Firestorm 

Gaunt Summoner - 180
Lore of Change - Bolt of Tzeentch 

Tzaangor Shaman - 180
Lore of Change - Fold Reality

Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch - 160
Trait - Magical Supremacy
Lore of Fate - Glimpse the Future 

The Blue Scibes - 140
Lore of Change - Uncheked Mutation 

30 Tzaangors - 480
10 Pink Horrors - 200
Lore of Change - Unchecked Mutation
10 Kairic Acolytes - 80
10 Kairic Acolytes - 80

Umbrall Spell Portal - 60
Geminids of Ulh-Gysh - 40

Edited July 16, 2018 by AaronWIlson

[Drib]

8 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

So I've got my first 2K game this week, going to take a lot of photos and do a battle report for you guys. Here's what I'm taking - 

Spoiler

Allegiance : Tzeentch 

Lord of Change - 380
Artefact - Gryph Feather Charm 
Lore of Change - Tzeentchs Firestorm 

Gaunt Summoner - 180
Lore of Change - Bolt of Tzeentch 

Tzaangor Shaman - 180
Lore of Change - Unchecked Mutation 

Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch - 160
Trait - Magical Supremacy
Lore of Fate - Glimpse the Future 

The Blue Scibes - 140
Lore of Change - Uncheked Mutation 

30 Tzaangors - 480
10 Pink Horrors - 200
10 Kairic Acolytes - 80
10 Kairic Acolytes - 80

Umbrall Spell Portal - 60
Geminids of Ulh-Gysh - 40

 

I am always running with Fold Reality. Could be used on the Shaman as you will more often cast his own spell rather than the Unchecked Mutation.

[AaronWilson]

Just now, Drib said:

I am always running with Fold Reality. Could be used on the Shaman as you will more often cast his own spell rather than the Unchecked Mutation.

Yeah sorry Fold Reality is on my Shaman, I just wrote the wrong spell because I'm dumb. I'll probably put Unchecked on my Pink Horrors. 

[ianob]

1 hour ago, TheOtherJosh said:

You only pay for things before the game begins. Anything summoned onto the board after the game begins doesn’t use the points mechanic anymore.

eg Summoned Daemons ... no longer use any reserve points. You would need to have your available models. But I don’t need to pay reserve points to bring on a new Blue Horrors Unit. I just need to have them in my available models to place on table. (And fulfil Any in-game mechanic required.)

So, the player would need to have their own copy of the model in their “bag of tricks”. Because one can’t summon stuff to the board if you don’t have the model. (Because even though they are stealing the spell, they’re not stealing the model from their opponent.)

There is literally nothing in the rules that supports this viewpoint.

The rules don't actually stipulate that you need to pay point to know OR use the endless spell, but its plainly obvious that that's what's intended by them having PB profiles. The only stipulation is that you must have a model and a warscroll, so if we follow your logic, anyone can use endless spells without paying points for them.

Edited July 16, 2018 by ianob

[AaronWilson]

2 minutes ago, ianob said:

There is literally nothing in the rules that supports this viewpoint.

The rules don't actually stipulate that you need to pay point to know OR use the endless spell, but its plainly obvious that that's what's intended by them having PB profiles. The only stipulation is that you must have a model and a warscroll, so if we follow your logic, anyone can use endless spells without paying points for them.

This is just not true, to include them in your army list it states you have to pay the points for them and have the model.

The curseling rule on the warscroll is completely separate, as it's a unique rule on his warscroll. Hell GW have even FAQ's this to say it's okay so at this point it's not a debate anymore. 

[ianob]

3 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

This is just not true, to include them in your army list it states you have to pay the points for them and have the model.

The curseling rule on the warscroll is completely separate, as it's a unique rule on his warscroll. Hell GW have even FAQ's this to say it's okay so at this point it's not a debate anymore. 

1) Page reference? Im not aware that it explicitly states this. Not that we dont know that paying points is the intention, but without specific wording indicating how the rule works we also dont have specific wording to discern how Tzeentch abilities interact with it.

2) That is not an FAQ, it's a designers' commentary, and does not specify matched play. Outside of matched play ES don't cost points, so without a qualifier to that extent, it really doesn't help solve the issue. 

[Boss Salvage]

2 hours ago, AaronWIlson said:

So I've got my first 2K game this week, going to take a lot of photos and do a battle report for you guys.

Excite! Good luck with the match, list looks nice and tuned.

[TheOtherJosh]

2 hours ago, ianob said:

The rules don't actually stipulate that you need to pay point to know OR use the endless spell, but its plainly obvious that that's what's intended by them having PB profiles

“Endless spells have Pitched Battle profiles and a points cost. By paying the spell’s points cost, all WIZARDS in the player’s army know that endless spell, and the player can use (and re-use) one endless spell model of the appropriate type in the battle.” GHB 2018 p.48

The Curseling can redirect a casting attempt through ‘Vessel Of Chaos’.

The qualifiers are in game, and because the Warscroll abilities over-ride Core Rules they would have access to knowledge/items that they wouldn’t normally as part of army creation. 

A Curseling could dispel the spell, with vessel of chaos, and could immediately attempt to cast it ... but they don’t know the the spell  ... and couldn’t cast it later in game. (That is a different ability.)  And can’t steal it from a unit using ‘glean magic’ ... because it is not on the unit’s Warscroll.

[ianob]

15 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

“Endless spells have Pitched Battle profiles and a points cost. By paying the spell’s points cost, all WIZARDS in the player’s army know that endless spell, and the player can use (and re-use) one endless spell model of the appropriate type in the battle.” GHB 2018 p.48

The Curseling can redirect a casting attempt through ‘Vessel Of Chaos’.

The qualifiers are in game, and because the Warscroll abilities over-ride Core Rules they would have access to knowledge/items that they wouldn’t normally as part of army creation. 

A Curseling could dispel the spell, with vessel of chaos, and could immediately attempt to cast it ... but they don’t know the the spell  ... and couldn’t cast it later in game. (That is a different ability.)  And can’t steal it from a unit using ‘glean magic’ ... because it is not on the unit’s Warscroll.

Right. But in all instances of spell rules, there is a *completely separate* qualifier for your ability to use or not use an endless spell model. You've just quoted one of them. And since we're in a matched play scenario here, the use of the model specifically requires you to have paid the points for it. There is still nothing here that suggests you can ever cast an endless spell that you didnt pay points for. The Curseling Designers' Commentary does not say that he can do this in matched play. Similarly nothing indicates that other similar abilities can do the same (eg Nagash knowing enemy Death wizards' spells).

I don't disagree at all that there is ambiguity here, but let's not pretend that it's clear cut and completely dried that this is allowed. The rules simply don't cover it, and since AoS is a permissive ruleset, without an FAQ that explicitly allows this in matched play it's not legal.

Edited July 16, 2018 by ianob

[TheOtherJosh]

46 minutes ago, ianob said:

The rules simply don't cover it, and since AoS is a permissive ruleset, without an FAQ that explicitly allows this in matched play it's not legal.

If the issue is that the ruleset is permissive, and the Designers commentary and Warscroll give permission ... we only wouldn’t be able to use the core rules in Matched Play if there was an additional restriction that stated that this functionality from the core rules doesn’t work that way in Matched.

The Matched Play Rules add restrictions and limits to the core rules.  If there are no restrictions or limits stated that are different than Core Rules ... and the Designers Commentary And a warscroll specifically state that a spell that is dispelled can be cast... (as long as you’re meeting the ‘who can cast’ requirement on the actual spell (some endless spells have restrictions on who can cast them, ie Nighthaunt/Nagash only)) and given that warscrolls can override core rules, it seems pretty cut and dried.

The only “other restriction” on casting an endless spell that I see is that you have to have the model for the spell available. (P.262 Core Book) And if the player already has one of that kind of endless spells on the board, because say they stole it in a prior turn, they couldn’t have two copies “they own” on the board per the GHB updates in a Matched Play game.

46 minutes ago, ianob said:

there is a *completely separate* qualifier for your ability to use or not use an endless spell model. You've just quoted one of them

If you could point me at that qualification that can’t be over-ruled by a Warscroll unit Ability, I’d be really appreciative.

If the issue is “knowing the spell” the Curseling can cast spells that they don’t know. (They actually doesn’t even know it after casting.)

[ianob]

3 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

If the issue is that the ruleset is permissive, and the Designers commentary and Warscroll give permission ... 

If you could point me at that qualification that can’t be over-ruled by a Warscroll unit Ability, I’d be really appreciative.

 

Neither give permission to use Endless Spells or Endless Spell models. The warscroll says nothing about Endless Spells or using Endless Spell models, so that's irrelevant too. You're reaching with your counterarguments here.

We're going to have to agree to disagree  until we see an FAQ otherwise we're going to go round in circles

Edited July 16, 2018 by ianob

[TheOtherJosh]

5 minutes ago, ianob said:

Neither give permission to use Endless Spells or Endless Spell models. The warscroll says nothing about Endless Spells or using Endless Spell models, so that's irrelevant too. You're reaching with your counterarguments here.

To clarify, we’re talking about the June 2018 DoT designers commentary  where “the answers are provided by the rules writing team explain (sic) and how the rules are intended to be used. [...]” here? (https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_disciples_of_tzeentch_designers_commentary_en.pdf )

“Q: Can a Curseling, having unbound an endless spell, use the Vessel of Chaos ability to attempt to cast that endless spell?
A: Yes.”

14 minutes ago, ianob said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree  until we see an FAQ otherwise we're going to go round in circles 

Okay. It does seem rather straightforward. But it does sound like you would want a clearer faq indicating something else. I hope they can get you what you’re asking for.

[Richelieu]

I have two examples that I think should help clear this up.

1) Branchwraith summon spell.  Nobody would argue that just because Curseling can steal the spell that you should be able to summon your opponent's models.

2) Just because you can cast a spell doesn't mean the rest of the spell's obligations are automatically met.  Setting up an endless spell is one of the effects of casting the spell.  In order to carry out that effect, you must possess the model.  This is completely independent of the rules that allow you to cast the spell.  This is no different than say, arcane bolt.  I can cast the spell, but it won't actually do anything unless I meet the further requirement of a unit being within 18".  

[TheOtherJosh]

46 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

I have two examples that I think should help clear this up.

1) Branchwraith summon spell.  Nobody would argue that just because Curseling can steal the spell that you should be able to summon your opponent's models.

2) Just because you can cast a spell doesn't mean the rest of the spell's obligations are automatically met.  Setting up an endless spell is one of the effects of casting the spell.  In order to carry out that effect, you must possess the model.  This is completely independent of the rules that allow you to cast the spell.  This is no different than say, arcane bolt.  I can cast the spell, but it won't actually do anything unless I meet the further requirement of a unit being within 18".  

I completely agree with you, the Tzeentch player would need to have the models to perform a cast that results in a model (or models) showing up on the table. (ie They don’t get to borrow their opponents models, they need their own... unless they have a very gracious opponent.)

One might posit that one could do the spell cast and then place the available number of models, which could be as few as 0 models. 

So, as long as the Tzeentch player has the appropriate models in their box of models that they brought to an event do you see anything that would prevent them from casting the spell?  And having it take effect? (Tzeentch controlled Dryads .... interesting ...)

Edited July 16, 2018 by TheOtherJosh

[FPC]

To further OtherJosh’s point...let’s say you cast the Tzaangor shaman spell and create D3 new Tzaangors (assuming use against 1w infantry).  Now, you never paid points for them, and for the sake of argument let’s say you don’t have any Tzaangors in your army. Their warscroll isn’t part of your army list. Yet, I don’t see any reason you can’t place them. Just because the cursrling is casting a spell with the result of placing a model the enemy happened to pay for doesn’t mean you also need to pay for it and doesn’t mean you can’t place it if you have the model.

Maybe those arguing to the contrary are stuck in 1.0 mindset of “you can’t being on to the battlefield what you didn’t/can’t pay for...” but I think it’s pretty clear the Curseling can deny/cast an enemy endless (provided you have the models).

[Richelieu]

30 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

So, as long as the Tzeentch player has the appropriate models in their box of models that they brought to an event do you see anything that would prevent them from casting the spell?  And having it take effect? (Tzeentch controlled Dryads .... interesting ...)

I see nothing whatsoever that would prevent them from casting the spells. Indeed, I would applaud a Tzeentch player that carried around a bunch of dryads on the off chance their Curseling unbinds that spell (and in the case of Branchwraith, since it is on her warscroll, Curseling could even use glean magic to learn it).  Same with the endless spells (minus the glean magic).

[AaronWilson]

6 hours ago, Boss Salvage said:

Excite! Good luck with the match, list looks nice and tuned.

Thanks mate! The only last question I have for the list is do I drop the second acolytes, upgrade my Shackles to a Balewind and bank a CP for that turn one 1 inspiring presence but I like the 2 lots of 10 acolyteas as they can make a 40" screen and having the extra bodies / chip damage seems useful. Only testing will tell.

[SleeperAgent]

Thinking of getting a second army and Tzeentch is on my list of possibles. Would this list be semi-competitive?
General:
Lord of Change (Incorporeal Form, Blade of Fate, Tzeentch's Firestorm)
Kairos Fateweavers (Bolt of Tzeentch)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (Infusion Arcanum)
Gaunt Summoner (Shield of Fate)

10x Pink Horrors (Fold Reality)
10x Pink Horrors (Unchecked Mutation)
10x Pink Horrors (Treason of Tzeentch)
3x Tzaangor Skyfires

Endless Spells:
Chronomantic Cogs

Now I had some questions because I'm using the warscroll builder for this. I assume I can use both Arcanite and Daemons in the same army.  Does Gaunt summoner get both lore and change spells? This is a rough draft and I want the whole thing to be worked out before I start buying as I already have a Nighthaunt army.

Also, do I need to pay points for blue horrors and flamers that spawn off dead pinks?

Edited July 17, 2018 by SleeperAgent

[Drib]

3 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

Does Gaunt summoner get both lore and change spells?

Only from one of your choice.

[AaronWilson]

4 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

Thinking of getting a second army and Tzeentch is on my list of possibles. Would this list be semi-competitive?
General:
Lord of Change (Incorporeal Form, Blade of Fate, Tzeentch's Firestorm)
Kairos Fateweavers (Bolt of Tzeentch)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (Infusion Arcanum)
Gaunt Summoner (Shield of Fate, Arcane Transformation)

10x Pink Horrors (Fold Reality)
10x Pink Horrors (Unchecked Mutation)
10x Pink Horrors (Treason of Tzeentch)
3x Tzaangor Skyfires

Endless Spells:
Chronomantic Cogs

Now I had some questions because I'm using the warscroll builder for this. I assume I can use both Arcanite and Daemons in the same army.  Does Gaunt summoner get both lore and change spells? This is a rough draft and I want the whole thing to be worked out before I start buying as I already have a Nighthaunt army.

Also, do I need to pay points for blue horrors and flamers that spawn off dead pinks?

Personally I don't think you want both kairos & loc, it's such a massive chunk of your list you have absolutely 0 board presence and no effective screening, as well as no solid melee units. 

[SleeperAgent]

1 hour ago, AaronWIlson said:

Personally I don't think you want both kairos & loc, it's such a massive chunk of your list you have absolutely 0 board presence and no effective screening, as well as no solid melee units. 

What would you suggest in the Fateweavers place? I figured I'd buy extra Pinks because Ogroid can make more. 

2 hours ago, Drib said:

Only from one of your choice.

Ok I went with Shield of Fate thanks. 

[AaronWilson]

11 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

What would you suggest in the Fateweavers place? I figured I'd buy extra Pinks because Ogroid can make more. 

Ok I went with Shield of Fate thanks. 

I'd look at dropping Kairoc (380) & Skyfires (220) and adding 30 Tzaangors (480) which would leave you 120 points to do what you'd like with, though I'd recommend 100% Umbral Spell Portal in your list. In will allow you to throw all your spells out turn one (Inferno Flames, Bolt of Tzeentch, Infernal Gateway & Tzeentchs Firestorm). That would leave you 60 points for either another endless spell (I think the Geminids of Ulh-Gysh are currently a massive steal at 40 points) or you could bank a command point for that turn 1 Inspiring Presence if someone gets the drop on you. Lastly if going 30 Tzaangors I'd replace the Ogroid for a Tzaangor Shaman, the Ogroids spell being FAQ'd to only be able to create Brimstones make his value drop a little & the Shamans mobility is excellent in scenario play as well granting the Tzaangors +1 to wound if within 9".

[The Cyclop Owl]

13 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

What would you suggest in the Fateweavers place? I figured I'd buy extra Pinks because Ogroid can make more. 

Ok I went with Shield of Fate thanks. 

Ogroid has been updated, it makes brimstones. You need to get the FAQ, errata and updated warscrolls for an army like Tzeentch, because quite a few things have changed since the battletome.

Considering your army's style, I would recommend dropping Fateweaver and the Skyfires (they're not that good when in units of 3) and bringing in a Magister, a Curseling and the Blue Scribes.
Litterally all your units will be wizards for a nice total of 12 spells a turn, 13 with the cogs. That should also leave you a little room for more endless spells, and I'd recommend quickly summoning a herald of Tzeentch on disk to guarantee good summoning spaces.

[SleeperAgent]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclop Owl said:

Ogroid has been updated, it makes brimstones. You need to get the FAQ, errata and updated warscrolls for an army like Tzeentch, because quite a few things have changed since the battletome.

Considering your army's style, I would recommend dropping Fateweaver and the Skyfires (they're not that good when in units of 3) and bringing in a Magister, a Curseling and the Blue Scribes.
Litterally all your units will be wizards for a nice total of 12 spells a turn, 13 with the cogs. That should also leave you a little room for more endless spells, and I'd recommend quickly summoning a herald of Tzeentch on disk to guarantee good summoning spaces.

I'm gonna answer here because I like the idea of way more spells.

So something like this: (I cut the Ogroid  , and Tzaangor Skyfires for Curseling and Blue Scribes. Didn't like Magister much)
General:
Lord of Change (Incorporeal Form, Blade of Fate, Tzeentch's Firestorm)
Kairos Fateweaver (Bolt of Tzeentch)
Gaunt Summoner (Shield of Fate)
Curseling (Glimpe the Future)
The Blue Scribes (Arcane Transformation)

10x Pink Horrors (Fold Reality)
10x Pink Horrors (Unchecked Mutation)
10x Pink Horrors (Treason of Tzeentch)

Endless Spells:
Chronomantic Cogs
Geminids of Uhl-Ghysh
Umbral Spellportal

2000/2000